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ArlenianChronicles — But He Will Not Return
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Published: 2019-03-15 20:25:50 +0000 UTC; Views: 2246; Favourites: 53; Downloads: 0
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Elrond and Elros watch their father sail away, probably for the last time before the Third Kinslaying (cuz I wanted them to look really young, like three or four years old, here). Where's Elwing? I don't know.I do have a lot of thoughts are Eärendil and Elwing. When I first read the Silmarillion, I liked them along with the rest of squad of characters, but after reading up on what other people thought, and actually thinking about what happened, I started to get kinda mad at them ... So now my thoughts on them are not so positive lol
But I've recently read up on some more opinions, mostly from this forum , which has a lot of interesting and in-depth discussions! I most relate to the third-to-last comment in the comments section, if you guys are interested XD
I can understand the viewpoints of people who defend Elwing (and Eärendil), so now I think I've settled into a neutral ground, leaning slightly to the side of unfavourable opinions, because I still don't agree with what Eärendil and Elwing did.
However, I don't think I should go into a rant here, because I don't want to offend or upset anybody who are big fans of them. If you wanted, I could talk about it when I next post a drawing featuring the twins (and/or their parents). And I am also open to discussions, if you like
But then again, if Eärendil and Elwing hadn't left, the twins wouldn't have been raised by the Fëanorians XD
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Comments: 32
I don't think elwing and earendil are supposed to be outright villains, but we can admit they made mistakes. I mean if any of us had the most beautiful Jewel and all of existence won by your forefather and foremother just so they could be together, I doubt we would be able to give it up willingly either. People have a hard time giving up money. It's not so much of a stretch that we can't understand why elwing and her people didn't want to give up the jewel. Also, Tolkien heavily hinted the jewel has a psychological power over people. I mean it caused the wolf that devoured it to go insane, it caused feaner to love them more than he loved his own family, and it really causes elwing to believe that it brings her Comfort. I don't think she even realized did she was actually developing an addiction to it.
However, all that being said I still have quite a lot of sympathy for elwing. I mean she lost her entire family to the sons of feanor and here they come again and destroy her home again kill her people and take her sons. I tend to think that jump into the sea was probably desperate fear, and her believing that if she did not jump she would be killed just as her mother and father were.
And besides, the silmaril didn't truly belong to either of them. It really belongs to the Valar so in a sense it ends up with the rightful owner anyway when Elwing takes it valinor.
But anyway, I tend to think of elwing and Earendil as good people who were standing up against forces they probably wouldn't have stood a chance against. I mean even if the sons of Feanor had never come, they would have eventually been killed by morgoth. Because morgoth would have continued to spread until he conquered the entire world.
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. I’ve had lots of school stuff to do, and lots of things to think about.
All in all, very good points and an interesting interpretation
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well, its what Tolkien says. Its not really so much my interpretation. I'm following the author. Tolkien says the Elwing and her people looked upon the Jewel and thought it brought them good and comfort. And great was her grief at the destruction of her home and captivity of her sons, (Of Elwing and Earendel) so its not like she was indifferent to love if you believe the writer.
Like Tolkien, I always try to see the bigger picture of a story, not just the actions. Its best to be objective anyway.
And I understand, its been a busy time of year.
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So am I. And what the author has left us is an unfinished book, which is why the whole fandom is making interpretations. We don't know what Tolkien was thinking or whether he was planning to make changes (which he's done a lot already). And even if it were finished, it's still up for interpretation. Literal words can hide other meanings.
The Silmarillion is pretty much the written bigger picture, which is all we can be certain of. And in this case, all the smaller actions have been ignored if they're not relevant to the plot (which I feel like is why Aegnor and Andreth were not mentioned at all, or even Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, which could've been mentioned in passing).
And in my opinion, no one can be truly objective about things. We're always going to see something with a personal bias, and the best we can do is push it aside as much as we can.
Thanks for understanding.
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yeah and its best to not run on pure emotion and use logic with emotion. A purely emotional person is a dangerous one.
The way i see it, if Tolkien intended for characters to be viewed sympathetically or without sympathy, he would not bother to include certain details, such as a a character's sorrowful background ect. But you are correct, some things we do not know his mind. That's why i wish he could've lived to be 100 or more haha.
Literal words can hide meanings yes, but I'm not sure if what you're referring to applies in this case.
Bottom line, its best to be too crazy on judging on a character. Thanks for the talk. I enjoyed it!
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Haha I wish he could have lived longer too. Then we could have a better idea of how he fully saw his characters.
Any piece of text can be more than what it literally says or intends. The same goes for the Silmarillion, is all.
You're very welcome. Thanks for discussing with me
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so, if I say the "the dog walked down the road." any hidden meanings or anything more in there? I'm confused on what you mean. How can you say everything has hidden meaning when you don't know the mind of the author? You got God or mind reading powers? XD
I certainly would love to see a fuller view on the Blue Wizards. I always wondered where they went or what happened to them.
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lol i should have said that pieces of text can mean more, more than they always do.
As for your sentence, we'll make it a playful exercise rather than a serious one, just for demonstrative purposes XD
For starters, there's only so much info you've given me. Why only that much? What kind of dog is it, what is its background, why is it walking down the road? The road suggests that there are (or were) people around to build it. And the dog is the only one mentioned, which suggests that we're going to follow it as a main character of sorts. There appears to be nobody else around so we're not seeing it through any other points of view.
We don't really need the mind of the author to find any hidden meanings. It's just what we draw from what they've given us.
As for the Blue Wizards, I heard that they went into the East to help the people over their fight against Sauron
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Okay so text can mean more. Yes definitely agree with that. It all just depends on the mind of whoever was writing it, it is dangerous sometimes to assume that something has hidden meaning when that's not always the case. I know Tolkien does have hidden meanings in many of his writings, but he did tend to also write literal. It's a very delicate balance.
And you're correct, I was playfully teasing you. I just couldn't refuse
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It can be dangerous, I agree. But people still analyze things, like literature and artwork, and they'll continue to do so. It's not really something we have control over lol But I do see what you mean.
Ah I see. No worries
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Okay so 1) this is an absolutely incredible piece. The deep sense of longing and quiet sadness is absolutely astounding. But you always impress me with your work. And the lighting is to die for. It’s so warm, but something about it is so sad.
2) I’m so glad you shared that forum. That was an amazing read. And I must say, I completely agree with you. For a while I was a bit “eh” on all three of them. Elwin, Dior, and Eärendil. I was leaning toward “not so nice” views but that form and specificity your favorite comment really solidified how I feel.
I’ve always really wondered what made Elros and Elrond grow to love the Fëanorians. I mean, from a reasonable standpoint it seems impossible. But with the overshadowing parental abandonment, I’m sure getting active attention from new parental figures was nice.
And like your favorite comment said. “She knew exactly what the Sons of Feanor would do if denied the Silmaril, Dior should probably have been able to guess, but she knew.” I’m sure Elros and Elrond thought about that. They’re clever boys. It kinda seems like she condoned them to death. Or worse, like whatever happened to her brothers. Which kinda makes it worse. Elwing’s siblings were lost forever. She probably didn’t know Maedhros went looking for them. She probably thought they were killed after the fact. Yet she leaves her own children to potentially suffer the same? And I’m sure their are many other ways to read into it. I don’t wanna fight with anyone, but it’s a very interesting situation to read....
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1) Thank you so much! I’m so glad you like it! 
2) I agree, it seems odd that Elrond and Elros would form a relationship with their captors, and from what I’ve heard, there are some fanfictions which depict it as Stockholm Syndrome (which I have not yet come across), whereas others show a parent-child relationship (which is the majority of what I’ve read). If you look at it from the standpoint that Elwing was only paying attention to the Silmaril and not anything else, I think it would make more sense for the twins to grow attached to the first “parental figures” that actually care for them. In contrast, if you view Elwing as a mother who truly cared for the twins and raised them well, then it makes less sense for the twins to grow attached to the Feanorians. At best, it would be a slower process because they still have the memory of their loving mother.
I don’t know if Earendil would be brought into the picture here, because he’s sailing at this point, so it makes more sense to focus more on Elwing as the one who’s actually there and raising the twins. But then again, Earendil is absent as a father, which would likely lead to the twins turning to the Feanorians, or at least Maglor, as a father-figure.
It does feel like Elwing condoned them to death. Regardless of whether she tried to protect them or not, she “casts herself into the sea” (which sounds like she did it willingly), thereby leaving her sons to their fate. It’s pretty much one of those situations where there’s not enough information to go by – like, did she do anything to ensure her sons’ safety (not to mention her people’s)? Or did she think the Feanorians weren’t going to try another attack? (the latter should be unlikely, considering her backstory) I feel like maybe that’s why Dior isn’t given as much criticism for making the same dumb decision to keep the Silmaril, because it says in the book that he stays and fights to protect his family, whereas it’s not clear what Elwing’s priorities/motives were.
And don’t worry, I’m planning to keep my gallery as argument-free as possible! I think it’s good (and important) to keep an open mind and at least understand where people are coming from in their views
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Yess!! And since Tolkien said “love grew between them” and not, Stockholm syndrome, it’s makes more sense, at least to me, that the twins would have rough relationships with their birth parents. Otherwise I’m not sure they could learn to love Maglor at all. I mean that’s a whole other discussion.
And yes, since it states that she cast herself. It seems self inflicted. And it also said Maglor didn’t find them until after the battle. So they weren’t around to force her off. She just. Jumped? Accepting death over handing over the Silmarill. And. If she had just. Given it up. She could’ve saved her sons. So maybe she was a good mother, just under the force of the enchanted Silmaril, I mean I kinda doubt it, But it’s impossible to say for certain. It’s just how I see it.
But yes! I’m very happy to discuss this with you!!! You have great insight!!
And no worries! I know you wouldn’t pick fights. You’re a good one. I just didn’t want anyone who stumbled on my comment to think I was trying to be rude!
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I think some people turn to Stockholm Syndrome as an explanation because it involves a relationship forming between a captor and his hostages. I would counter that with reference to Maglor “taking pity on them and cherishing them,” which, considering the criteria for a Stockholm Syndrome environment, doesn't sound like your typical hostage-captor relationship XD
Maglor might not have been around to force Elwing off, but it doesn't actually specify that directly. The Feanorians could have “forced” her off, and then found the boys. But I agree, she could’ve just given it up, preferably when the Feanorians first asked for it lol Because then there’s the reason that Elwing could have jumped from sheer terror upon seeing the Feanorians, because of her trauma from the Second Kinslaying.
Aww thanks! In some places, and with regards to some topics, it’s getting tough to keep a civil discussion on the Internet, so I’ve never gone into talks like these, before XD But I’m glad to have found you guys, because you all have great insight too!!
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You’ve completely nailed it again. My thoughts exactly!!
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This is a gorgeous piece, I love the yellows and soft purples in the sky!
I definitely understand the issues with Elwing's character, but I actually have the complete opposite view XD (That's part of what's cool about a fandom, there can be dozens of ways to percieve a single story element, because each individual brings their own experiences to the table.)
I always get the sense that Tolkien wasn't able to give us the entire picture when he wrote that story. I never imagine the Feanorians holding the boys at swordpoint on the cliffs edge, instead I imagine Elwing desperately hiding the boys, and then using the Silmaril to lead Mae and Mag away from them. ("HEY!" *waving the Silmaril over her head* "COME AND GET ME!" XD) Only after the chaos had ended and Maglor was survaying the scene did he discover the trembling boys, hiding in a room somewhere.
As for jumping, the problem is--as the forum mentioned-- is that we don't know what she was thinking. I imagine that she very well thought that she would die even if she did give up the Silmaril. In her eyes, the Feanorians were the stuff of nightmares. The ones that had murdered her family. The jump may have been desperation, it could also had been an act of faith, with her screaming to the Valar for help as Fingon did as he aimed an arrow at his dying cousin. ("Have some pity on the Noldor in their need!!")
That's just a different way of looking at things, however, and I'm not trying to start a vicous debate over it. In the end it's one of those things that's up for interpretation, much like the Feanorians.
(Aplogies to NatRDraws that my comment ended up under yours, xD I'm on mobile so sometimes I just hit the wrong reply button and there's no easy way to fix that.. Anyway you had a lot of good points about this too)
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Thank you so much!
I agree; it’s interesting to see other people’s perspectives (and that’s pretty much how I got settled into a neutral territory XD)! And I think your idea of what happened is enlightening! I certainly never thought about it from that angle – I’ll admit that I’ve been influenced by fanfictions: ones that usually have the twins being guarded by maids, and Elwing is nowhere in sight; or she just jumps in blind terror (cuz of trauma); and then the way she’s painted is based on what the twins/Feanorians think of her. So your idea is a new one to me, and does make sense! XDD
I also agree that there’s not much in the book to explain what Elwing was hoping to accomplish. And I totally understand your ideas on it – she was afraid of the Feanorians (who wouldn’t be?), and she might’ve thought that they’d kill her even if she handed the Silmaril over. But then I have to wonder, why didn’t she just hand over the Silmaril beforehand when the Feanorians first asked for it? Forget about Earendil, he’s off sailing, he’s got more important things to worry about than ruling over a small, vulnerable refugee settlement lol. Elwing must have known that keeping the Silmaril wouldn’t end well (she escaped the Second Kinslaying after all), but she decides to keep it.
Now, a reason that I read in the forum’s comments section is that the Silmaril could be addicting, rather like the One Ring. And if that’s the case, then I can’t really blame Elwing (or Dior) for wanting to keep it. And it would make some sense, because the Silmarils had been with Morgoth for years; I think there might’ve been a point in the book about the Silmarils not being able to be tainted (I can’t remember lol), but something could have happened, maybe a negative energy transferred to them. Or it could just be the Doom of Mandos, but that’s on the Noldor, not the Silmarils …
And don’t worry about vicious debates; I don’t like them either, and I’ll be doing my best to keep everything as friendly as possible! You’re right, it is one of those things up for interpretation, and I’m very happy that you shared your thoughts!
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This reminds me that I need to translate the story I wrote about Elrond talking to Earendil as a star during the nights in Rivendell... That and the relationship Aragorn-Elrond-Earendil is something I often return to in my stories, in Gil-Estel www.fanfiction.net/s/5396207 and Hope of a Star www.fanfiction.net/s/5585512 it's Earendil who is looking down at them. I admit I wrote nothing from Elwing's perspective, and it *does* seem like Tolkien really put the story above her motivations and did not think her actions through properly.
I like to find and explain the motivations of his characters that don't contradict their actions and in the same time don't make them stupid or selfish, so I will see if I can do it here. I would say it could involve a glimpse of foresight on Elwing's part about what would happen if the Feanorians get the Silmaril and that her sons would be alright if they don't. Maybe they would take the Silmaril AND the boys as hostages to prevent anyone from trying to get it back... but with the Silmaril, they would never be that kind to the boys, and who knows what would become of Elrond and Elros and the whole history of Middle-earth where they played a crucial part. I sense inspiration for a story
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I took a look at your stories, and I think they’re wonderful! I especially like how you show Earendil’s thoughts and feelings as he watches from above XD
I don’t know if there’s any hint that Elwing had foresight, but it is possible that she might’ve had a strain of it (since Elrond apparently has the gift XD). Your idea of Elwing seeing what would happen if she handed over the Silmaril makes sense to me, but I’d still have to consider the lives she put at stake because of that – the refugees of Doriath and Gondolin who have already suffered a lot, not to mention her sons. She may have had foresight, but none of the others knew what was going to happen, and I think it would be really unfair of her to put them through the trauma of a Third Kinslaying just because she knew that it was going to turn out “alright” in the end.
But I agree with you that the Feanorians likely wouldn’t have been that kind to the twins if they had the Silmaril. I’d have to wonder how they’d take the boys hostages in the first place, though; weren’t Maedhros and Maglor getting tired of fighting people for the sake of the Oath? I’d think they’d just leave Sirion alone if Elwing gave them the Silmaril, but it’s all up to interpretation, of course, because as you said, Tolkien didn’t go into a lot of detail on this part in the book XD
Ah well, it’s all for the sake of plot! We gotta have drama! lololl
Seriously though, thank you for sharing your thoughts! If you do write a story about an alternate raising of Elrond and Elros, I’d love to read it, though it would probably hurt my feels (cuz I love the mm&ee family so much!!) XDD
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Thank you!
The foresight in that line came from Melian, so it makes sense Elwing would have it, but I imagine it as just a short glimpse in the very moment before her jump. Maybe she just decided to hand over the Silmaril, seeing no other solution, but she could have glimpsed a future where the Feanorians with the Silmaril would take her children anyways to assure that nobody threatens their claim. That could be the moment she made the decision to keep the Silmaril from them even for the cost of her life. As to why she didn't give it to them right away and avoid the Kinslaying, I really don't know yet. She can't be flawless though. Maybe it is a decision she regretted later...
And about the story, I wouldn't write the AU about raising of the twins, that would hurt my feels as well. I was just wondering if I would be able to write a story about Elwing, her foresight and regrets. Right now, I'm not sure, but I might think about it more and then see if I can see it through her eyes...
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It makes sense that she could've had a small bit of foresight. Though I would say that the future isn't really set in stone; Elwing could always prepare for a future where the Feanorians might take her sons (like sending them to Balar beforehand, or something). But your idea is a very interesting! And I agree that she can't be flawless; none of the characters can (or should be XD).
I think a story about Elwing would be interesting to see! I'm sure you'd be able to do her justice
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omg nooooo
this is sad but beautiful!! aaahh i feel so sorry they had to go through so much at such a young age
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Aww thanks
I feel sorry for them too, especially for Elrond since he had to say goodbye to so many family members ...
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This picture is so touching! And while I can't fault Earandil for sailing to seek Valinor and pardon, I'm not a fan of either Elwing or Earandil.
I read some of that forum! I agree- it was very interesting! I don't think it's necessarily sexism to criticize Elwing. I, for one, don't like Dior either for his own decision. Both he and Elwing knew full well what to expect if they didn't surrender the Silmaril.
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Thank you so much!
I agree; personally, I feel that it's easier for me to criticize Elwing than Dior (since I do disagree with his decision) because Dior at least tried to protect his family. He died fighting, whereas it isn't said whether Elwing tried to protect her sons or not. She just jumped into the sea with the Silmaril, and that was it.
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Good point. There's also the fact that Elwing was young and may have had those around her pushing her to hold on to the Silmaril, so she IS a somewhat sympathetic character.
But when I compare the actions of her and Dior- withholding a Silmaril and putting their families at risk- with Maglor's, "Let us be glad," comment that's spoken with no bitterness when he and his brother had so much at stake, I kind of see them less favourably.
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To be honest, I would find it odd if people around her were telling her to keep it; seeing as Elwing's subjects include the refugees of Doriath (who went through the Second Kinslaying), I don't suppose they'd be wary of keeping the Silmaril for fear of the Feanorians returning?
I agree with your comparison; it does make Maglor's character more sympathetic since he seems willing to let go of that Silmaril, whereas Elwing and Dior couldn't.
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You do have a point. She's most likely grown up hearing about how evil the Sons of Feanor are (because that seems to be all everyone else has to say about them) and that she can't surrender the jewel that her parents/grandparents sacrificed to so much for. Or maybe she holed herself up with it and had a Gollum like obsession with it. We'll never know I guess.
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I totally agree! There are a lot of ways to interpret it XDD
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