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Dedasaur In reply to thebrokeartist [2017-11-30 23:43:14 +0000 UTC]

That's a good thing, if he had stayed the same person he was when he was 17 and after spending many years abroad I would have failed as a writer.

The doctor was a persecuted Jew, under Swedish territory and has spent many years away from Finland (in fact more than 30) with a guy that changed his life, and a wife that attached habits to him and children that share nothing of his own roots and are born a different nationality. Also Nationalism was born 2 centuries after this story.

If you want the Finnish attitude you have to go back at the first encounter with Kane. You would still see though, that over the years, the one thing he retained are his Jewish roots and that's because of the good memories he carries of his sisters and family. You don't carry with you memories or habits from a place that gives you only pain and sorrow, you move away from that as far as possible.

If you were to meet me you would never take me for an Italian, I spent many years away from my Country, on top of things you would never find Sicilian in me but that's the only thing I really carry with me because of the memories I have of my aunties and grandmother. But I drink long coffee, I am not a pasta lover, I dislike tomato sauce, I hate football, I don't care for a lot of the things Italians like and do because I find them strange and foreign.

I am currently extremely Singaporean in my attitude, my language and everything, even though I've been here for only 7 years, but I feel comfortable here.

People who go on in life without changing or being affected by others are missing out on a growing curve that is meant to expand our horizons. That creates stereotypical characters: like the Italians who live 50 years in America and never pick up English. 
Stereotypes are boring and predictable :/

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thebrokeartist In reply to Dedasaur [2017-12-01 00:59:42 +0000 UTC]

"Say what you mean, and mean what you say" Is something I rarely say to anyone. And this time I failed at it myself. So let me try to explain what I actually meant.

I did read the part where he met Kane. And even then I didn't feel anything Finnish in that arc ;n; Sure you got some finnish words right, the snow and the rough nature of it, but still... It felt more like... I'm not sure how to say it but I'm just gonna call it Swedish. Yes, I know Finland was under Swedish rule at the time and I am guessing that story happened around "Pähkinäsaaren rauha" time. So maybe that's why.

BUT. There is 1 thing you can't away from a Finn no matter what. You can take away the sauna, you can take away the forest, you can take away the swamps, you can take away the fields, you can even take away the booze. But the 1 thing you can't take out from a Finnish man is their "Sisu"

And that is very important to me as a Finn! So I can understand why the doc doesn't feel Finnish enough, he is being depicted by a person who wanted a unique character in their world (: And I am so happy that someone actually has taken their time and done some research of my country and some of its people :'3 Cause it's so unusual to find anyone who even knows Finland even exists.

And I can say as a Finn, I hate the taste of liquor XD Most Finns love anything with alcohol in it but I hate it. There are even some finnish foods that I hate... But there are 2 things that can be counted as Finnish stereotypes. Silence and Arguing. We Finns are quiet folk. When we work, we stay quiet. Silence is our way of showing respect and we only break it when we trust people. And instead of starting a bar fight when someone gets too drunk, we simply just start arguing. We yell, we throw insults, maybe get a bit physical to show we ain't afraid. But it takes about an hour for someone to actually throw the first punch.

Hope this somewhat cleared what I meant. Sorry for the trouble I just prefer keeping things short and simple. So sometimes it's easy for me to forget that other people see thing differently and it's easy for others to understand what I say differently. (I don't wanna use the word, misunderstand, cause I usually tend to get some people angry with it)

Keep doing the great work you're doing with the comic you've been doing so far, and hope I opened some new possibilities for you with this. If not, then oh well. If yes, then yay ;3;

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Dedasaur In reply to thebrokeartist [2017-12-01 02:26:48 +0000 UTC]

Hello, no, why do they get angry? It's nice to know new things.
And yay, you noticed the Swedish elements in the first arc - all the work paid off hahaha.

Anyways, yes, the quietness you are correct, it is the issue with characters with double culture and double upbringing. He does not have a whole lot of the quietness and the quiet behavior (because his Jewish side is louder) but I did take into consideration Sisu. GRIT is one of the main component of Westley, you can see it in the way he pursue things (his wife, his beliefs, the way he carries out his duties and in his Doctatorship) he is just... not quietly going about it. You would hear him say stuff like "I know something about guilt" and that's the jewish side but you can also hear him say "I am used to strenuous pursuits of love" and that's where I feel a bit of the Sisu rubbed off on him, even though he was in an isolated community. 
One of my Fin friends once defined sisu to me as: we are like those dogs that once they bite they have to close the jaw and bite harder, otherwise the jaw will break.
That to me was all I needed for him: the perseverance, the relentlessness
Baking giant donuts, trying hard to make Itzak love him, he tries and tries and tries even if he fails along the way, he doesn't give up. But I couldn't make him quiet because he does not spend enough time with quiet people ahhahaha.
Sorry he is based off one of my friends so I tortured him a lot back then with questions and how he would go about things. 

Due to lack of exposure to the Fins he cannot acquire a calm and quiet behavior but he has "political/Regional" awareness because he is oppressed and those were years of great unrest (consider the Cudgel war takes place only 30 years before this story begins! and right at the beginning of the story the 30 years war begins and Sweden was heavily involved.) The Swedish influence was great until the XIX century, unifying Fin traits back then were Regional traits but not a unifying National trait, the Language had changed too and adopted the Latin alphabet for instance. So many things got lost. 

So for Wes, back then not only he was under Swedish dominance but he was in Swedish "territory" (because he was near Tornion - that's why his last name is Tornion - and they were even possibily speaking Swedish there, back then. So, yes, what you see in the first arc has to feel more Swedish except for the bit where he would say "this is Finland" hahaha because Finland is not Scandinavia).
Under the Swedish domain the Jews had to follow certain rules, so he grew up in a closed community, he had to wear gray and a this yellow ring on his clothes that identified him and so because he did not mingle and he has his own heritage he won't have much exposure to the outside world either but he has a teensy bit of Regional pride as he suffers of the Swedish political domain and he knows that he suffers because he thinks that a free Finland would treat his people differently. Back then persecutions did not involved the whole Country, they were not "the law", but there were several episodes where small towns would suddenly hang the Jews and I used one of these stories as inspiration.

All of this is part of him. Oh, and I did not want him to be an angry drunk either because I did not want to go to stereotypes so I made him a sad drunk instead hahaha. 

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thebrokeartist In reply to Dedasaur [2017-12-01 15:49:25 +0000 UTC]

Well I will say this. I forgot he was a Jew ;-; And secondly I am a Finn. And by the time we found out he was a Finn, it was hard to see any signs of it. Cause the thing is that we Finns also have many stereotypes among ourselves. But the most common signs that you are a Finn is the fact that you're fine in the silence and that when you're angry you swear in a specific way. There are many types of finns, but rarely does anyone ever speak about them.

And yes I can see what your friend means. But defining Sisu is one of those things you need to witness to understand. Best example being the winter war, during the 2nd world war. I can understand the dog example but it ain't the perfect depiction. And neither will be the version I will tell. Cause sisu can also mean determination, guts, spirit and stubbornness.

You know those stories about people who fought against impossible odds? Imagine a picture of a man who's been shot by arrows, has few sword cuts on hims, he's tired and having a bit of a hard time walking. And against him are guys who are stronger, have better equipment, and have a leader who strikes fear into anyone he looks at. That leader looks at the injured man and isn't getting any closer. Cause the injured man is looking back at him and the leader is feeling pressure. Cause he isn't looking at a dying man. He is looking at a man, who will stand his ground even after having his head cut off.

Once a Finn decides on something, they don't just give up on it. I know cause I've done stubborn things a lot of time XD and so has pretty much all of my family. But I can't recall ever meeting a Finn who goes all "This is FINLAND!" just cause he is called a swede. Here are some common responses when no one knows what a Finn is. Icelandic? Sigh. Norwegian? Displeased sigh. Denn? displeased sigh. Estonian? Facepalm, close enough. Russian? Facepalm, close enough. Swede? 1. I'm a Finn 2. I ain't a swede! 3. This ain't Sweden.

Besides sad drunks are rare, and I think an american tv show host once said that we finns have 7 stages of drunk. We ain't all just angry drunks, some are happy drunks, some confusing, some sad, some angry and so on. And on another note I have better knowledge about ancient Finland then the 1000-1500 age of Finland. The only part I'm interested from those times are the culture. So I usually tend to forget important events from those times. And you just keep giving me basic 9th grade history lessons XD

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Dedasaur In reply to thebrokeartist [2017-12-02 01:26:12 +0000 UTC]

Hello dear
He is first and foremost a persecuted Jew (in Swedish territory). Like I said I wanted to tell that story.

You have to see the Jewish background first, I think that is where the problem lies.

The fact he is a Jew is very very very prominent in the story, it is his whole background, the Fin background as a Regional background serves the purpose of showing a specific type of persecution taking place in a specific Region, I think you focused sooo much on one regional identity that the overall semite background (which is always stronger than any Nationality) slipped away.  Wes makes jokes about it, he makes up his own wedding from what he remembers of his tradition, he is circumcised (does not bathe with the others in the pond) and the story of his persecuted family is behind not only the hair episode but even comes in as a conflict with the aunties after he marries Kes.
His perseverance and stubbornness does not come from that though, I think it rubbed off on him. I think most people would have given up on Kes for being so difficult, but he strenuously pursue her, most people would have given up on his friends and on Kane - they are all outcast, all expelled from their life to live at the edge, none of them retain much traces of their past or reject it even for the way they are treated.
For instance: Wes tries a blood transfusion when it hadn't even be tested yes, because Kane was dead there, no way to save him, even though he falters a moment because he is young but he cannot give up on his friend and carries on with the procedure eventually. Because once he decides on something he cannot give up and he doesn't, against all odds, he never does. 

Well, I am not here to write a history treaty, just an overall,  the 9th grade lesson is not something the rest of the World would bother to study for instance because unfortunately Finland is one of those places people does not put on the map of the world, a bit like South East Asia hahaha. I did study more than the 9th grade history, the anthropology and topology and of a specific time period, but what I researched more in details was the history of the Jews in the Swedish conquered territory - because that's when their lives changed - because I needed it as a background research of that one arc and a specific accident, because that was what I needed most. I had to go and get some help to translate from Fin to English because you won't find a lot of non translate stuff around. So I had help from my friends, even they had difficulties finding such hybrid references too because I asked for very specific stuff. 

It's true not all Fin are the same . My friend went "this is Finland" with a very upset and eyebrows raised on his face, when one of our friend said "we are going to Norway" XD
but it's the same for Italians not all Italians are the same, some people will tell you that certain things exist, other that they are stereotypes (but Italy has more than 20 Regions with different dialects and about 8 county per Region with their own dialects too).
I used him a lot as a reference because he is not full Fin and it was ideal reference. He is not a quiet one at all compared to other friends of mine, he moved out of Finland when he was 16 and his mother is not Fin. I have more "classical" Fin friends, who sigh and facepalm and stay quiet and so on, but they did not serve my purpose. Potentially he had more "storytelling" possibilities in him because of how unusual he was.

BTW we have Fin students coming over to Singapore very often so I know how quiet they are and how they behave after "sharing" Salmiaki with all of us, which Singaporeans do not drink gladly because they hate licorice and in return as a revenge they share Durian with the Fin students (who are really not that quiet in the presence of the emperor of fruit because, to them, the horror is real).

BTW Tonno is not being Sisu here, he is just scared of the needle. hahahahaha 
I am enjoying this conversation a lot, it tells me a lot about people's perception and projection on a story

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thebrokeartist In reply to Dedasaur [2017-12-02 18:31:05 +0000 UTC]

Nah Tonno just simply reacts the way any Finnish man would act when having a huge wound on their head XD

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Dedasaur In reply to thebrokeartist [2017-12-03 10:14:26 +0000 UTC]

Wait, so Fins are scared pain?

I think some Fins would take offense to be compared with Italians' fearing doctors and pain hahaha.
I mean for hundreds of pages this crew has been depicted as very melodramatic and not that tough (remember how they were all moaning when they got dysentery while the doctor, who was also sick and feverish, was taking care of them and suddenly they stopped moaning because gossip was more important? They are that kind of people).

I think the next page will refresh your memory of how childish these pirates really are and how scary they think the doctor is hahaha.

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thebrokeartist In reply to Dedasaur [2017-12-03 17:22:58 +0000 UTC]

Oh no no no no. Finns aren't scared of pain. We just prefer to keep things to ourselves. Besides we have an old saying in Finland. "If Booze or Tar or the Sauna won't help then yer dead." This is because in ancient Finland villages were very small and a lot of the houses distant. So there were no real doctors and going to a shaman was more of an emergency. Booze was used as a pain killer, tar was used on wounds, and sauna mostly removed diseases and other bacteria from both inside and outside.

Oh I remember them being childish. But UNLIKE children, they love bath day XDD

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Dedasaur In reply to thebrokeartist [2017-12-04 00:13:07 +0000 UTC]

okay, because for a moment there I thought they were.
Yes the no doctor things is also in the story - Wes father was a doctor and got him in trouble, his sisters practiced medicine too and that got them in trouble too.

Anyways unlike most people Italians hate needles and disinfectant and although they love to go to the doctor for the tiniest problems when they see pain they run. So the crew is like that hahaha. 

I think you will enjoy the next page tomorrow, it will remind you that bath day comes at a price for the doctor hahahaha so they do not enjoy it for the bath itself but for the outcome XDDD

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thebrokeartist In reply to Dedasaur [2017-12-04 19:45:26 +0000 UTC]

Yay ;3;

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