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Einstein001 — Page79 - Son Goku and Superman 2
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Published: 2017-12-26 01:57:48 +0000 UTC; Views: 16110; Favourites: 64; Downloads: 0
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Wait wasn't that a telekinetic attack instead of a telepathic one? He was crushing blood vessels. Not telling them to just die. It's really only like that because Superman said he wasn't a master at it. He's only really a quick learner that gained the basics. Plus writers just simply forgot about it like they do so many other things because they must have thought he was better with more vulnerabilities. I mean if you think about it a hax attack like a phase punch might just do the trick on a lot of characters. Superman and DBZ characters included. Of course he wouldn't though since he never kills....well most of the time.
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Depends on the user of the phase attack. Wally using it on someone as tough and Supes and Goku would just get his hand broken on their insides for example. And Superman is consistently harmed by telepathic attacks, and the Kryptonian martial arts in question involved him being in a meditative state. Not really usable in a fight you know?
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Eh Flash technically has used it on powerhouses like Amazo, Martain Manhunter. If he can do it to those guys (or hell normal people at all without some kind of backlash then it's safe to assume it bypasses durability alltogether) I never got the impression it was unusable in a fight. Quite the opposite actually. It seemed pretty useful against the eradicator and would clearly look more useful if only it had more showings. They even jokingly call it "super-hypnotism" which is a clear reference to the silver age superman power. If this was meant to be the post crisis version of that then even more awesome.
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this superman is so mutch more scary than injustice superman
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Having taken multiple supernova's to the FACE and while weakened, plus matching Flash's speed perception to "freeze" time, I doubt anybody could be a match for Superman in the DBZ Universe.
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Pre and post Flashpoint Supermen have never taken multiple supernovas to the face. They went through a couple supernovas, but considering that they spread throughout the entire solar system, that would mean Superman was taking a very very very small amount of that destructive energy, yet was still damaged by it. If anything it's proof that he can't take a contained solar system attack(like Marvels Gladiator). And on top of that, he only increased his senses to match Barrys, and Barry wasn't moving at his full speed(unless you think a waitress falling in slow mo from his perspective is his full speed, in which case you may as well be arguing that they are both sub-light.
Rebirth Supes(who is a composite of both Nu and pre-flashpoint Supermen)has never performed at the same level as late Buu saga characters, let alone Super characters. So this comment of yours doesn't even make any sense. Also, calling someone a fanboy because they disagree with you? Real mature from someone that thinks current Supes can take anyone in the DB universe on and win. Let alone think Naruto can hold his own(I would hope you were joking with that remark).
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So which Superman are we all looking at. I know it's Rebirth but is Einstein using a combination of Rebirth/ pre-crisis or Rebirth/post-crisis?
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Well Rebirth Supes is a literal composite of Nu and post crises Supermen, so I think this Supes is based on that. Buy considering he was able to hold his own with anti monitor and not die outright(same goes with his current fight with Beerus), I'd say he is clearly astronomically stronger than that. I mean not even pre crises Supes could perform half as well as this Superman did against anti monitor.
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Its the difference of being nigh-invincible & taking a bullet to the arm only to get a boo-boo on it. NOBODY in the DBZ Universe is really invulnerable. The only one who comes closest to that rank is Jiren, aaannnd look what he did to UI Goku...
PS. If Superman can keep up with the Flash, he can pretty much keep up with anybody, can he?
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That was because Goku let his guard down(again) and wasn't channeling his kids into his durability. Both before and after that incident he had no issue catching bullets with his hand, even Roshi did it back in the early days of Dragonball. Fact to the matter is, current Supes just can't take much of what the Buu saga characters can dish out, and can't even harm Super chars, so even if he did have superior speed, he isn't going to do much if he can't hurt them.
And Supes can't keep up with the Flash. In the entire story that you referred too, he was failing to catch Barry. He only did at the end because of plot really. Dude hard trouble keeping up with Jay at times, hes nowhere near Barry and Wallys level.
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Beside the point.
Just because he didn't manage to catch the Flash doesn't mean it aint impressive to come close to it. I like to see Goku do that or even Buu.
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Considering the fact that Supes only caught him because the pllot said he had to, then it isn't even a feat dude. I mean Thawne has blitzed the crap out of both Shoes and Wonder Woman at the same time, and he's no faster than Barry.
And considering that Goku skipped through time while using SSBKKx10 with Hit? He'd probably do a lot better than Supes did against POST crises Barry(precrises Barry is just too fast tho)
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Well, Supes did manage to catch Thawne & even blitzed the ENTIRE Justice League at bloodlusted level, soooo...
Time Dialations do not work on Superman, and your reasonings is getting as empty as your DA main page.
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Superman never blitzed the likes of the Flash or Wonder Woman. And time dilations do work on Supes, but you missed the point as Superman(current) never moved so fast that he went through tie like Goku did, which was the point. Supes was made to look like a statue while Wally and Zoom duked it out all over the planet.
My reasoning is fine. You're just reaching for air 
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"Superman never blitzed the likes of the Flash or Wonder Woman."
*ahem*
Bloodlust Superman vs Justice League
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Right so unless you've actually read the comic that came from, you have no business citing it as it just makes you look silly. That scan was from the non-canon DCUO comic series where Supes was being brainwashed into thinking he was fighting doomsday.
Where else in the Canon comics, a bloodlusted Supes has a hard time with the likes of Wonder Woman on her own while Shazam not only goes toe to toe with him, but has knocked him out as well, and is routinely blitzed by speedsters even slower than Barry.
Nice try though.
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Sorry pal, but if Supes did it, then he did. Most of the DBZ movies are non-canon, and you could yse them if you wanted to.
Bottom line is that Supes is too much for Goku to handle. Even if he tried something, Supes can easily block/counter his attacks like oh so many opponents that came before him. Goku isn't the all-powerful hombre you want him to be. Hell, he barely manages himself in a fight as it is & I can't remember the last time he solo'd a high tier fighter without back up, let alone win a big fight all by himself.
Let that sink in for a moment.
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It's amusing that you're still trying to use that non Canon incident as if it means anything. All it shows is that you can't come up with anything from Canon to support your stance. And you wouldn't want to take the movies into consideration, as then there would be feats of Goku moving and reacting at mftl speeds as a normal SSJ, and a character that is a casual multi solar system buster to the point he destroyed most of a galaxy by the time he was an adult.
You claim Supes can counter anything Goku can dish out, yet fail to mention how because you can't. Superman can't take anything Goku can dish out. He isn't even strong enough to harm Goku and if you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention.
The fact that you claim Goku barely manages himself in a fight just shows you don't even know anything about Dragonball, so you claiming this is just making yourself out to be ignorant. And you claimed Orion was the fanboy? Lol. Superman as he is currently can't even make it past the Cell saga. He doesn't hit hard enough to harm ssj2+ level beings, and would be vaporized by their aoe attacks. We know this, because he has been harmed by far less than what the DB characters can dish out, while the DB characters at that point have ignored attacks that hurt Superman. That isn't even getting into DBS, where Goku and Beerus almost bust the universe a couple of times with both their physical and ki attacks.
It's amusing that you actually think you're offering an argument here. Your reply basically boils down to; "Superman wins because I say so!". Which is a pretty sad argument. And if that is the best you can come up with, then you've failed to prove how Superman could beat current Goku. Let *that* sink in for a moment.
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? That doesn't even make any sense. When one cites examples from Canon(me), while the other(you) only cites non-canon scans and offers nothing to support their claims, then you really have no business responding with that cupcake.
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Any claims you make to "try" to under-power Superman can be said the same for Goku. Ergo, you're a DBZ fanboy that is trying to make Goku win while ignoring or changing what Superman can do.
Goku LOST to his doppelganger.
Superman blitzed Ultraman. And Superwoman, too.
Goku has NEVER reached FTL fighting, otherwise how come everyone counters his attacks & CANNOT out manuever Dyspo.
Superman keeps under FTL for the sake of not obliterating his environments & even flew from Pluto to the Earth in SECONDS!
Goku barley manages to lift the weights that Whis provided him while sweating profusely.
Superman lifts the weight of the Earth for FIVE DAYS STRAIGHT and breaks one sweatdrop.
Goku gets KO'd by simple backhands to the neck by Whis & Majin-Vegeta.
Superman gets KO'd by an EARTH-SHATTERING punch & is fine moments later.
Goku CANNOT ever defeat Beerus & NEVER will, according to Toriyama.
Superman was said by ZEUS to best his mightiest Olympians & knocked the GOD out Lex Luthor
Get it..?
Do you now see what your precious Goku is up against?!
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY in the DragonBall Universe has ever dealt with any of those feats & blows before & I mean NOBODY!!
Not even Jiren.
Now then...
Tell us all just how hell can Goku somehow beat Superman with all the evidences that we've shown you?
And please stick to the topic at hand without trailing off like you people usually do.
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I'm not ignoring or changing anything, so that's just a lie. You using noncanon sources is a fail on your part, not me ignoring it. You keep going on about Gokus loses as if it means anything, never mind the fact that those who beat him would beat Superman so once again you're reaching in the most pathetic manner. Superman never even blitzed Ulgraman, he out fought him. Seriously, learn what that word means, you just sound foolish otherwise.
Goku has proven to be ftl a long time ago. Their attacks reached the moon from earth in under a second, while the feat your mentioning is flying travel speed only. Superman has actually failed to react to the speed of light multie times, like when he failed to react to the emp that moved at the speed of light, failed to react to doctor lights light speed attack, admitted to being unable to react to light without Wally's help, couldn't keep up with Jay, whose Max speed is only as fast as light and has out raced Black Adam(who is physically equal to Superman in all stats) and agreed with Wonder Woman and Batman who pointed out he wasn't even as fast as the speed he uses for the infinite mass punch(just below light speed). Superman may fly at mftl speeds, but he has proven on a consistent basis to not be anywhere near as fast in terms of reactions.
Dyspo was stated to have surpassed light by Toppa, and has a move that allows him to multiply that speed by the thousands, so now you're just down playing again. And Goku perceived him just fine as an SSG and even caught his burst attack before it connected with hit. As Blue he is about as fast as Hit, who had no issue reacting to Dyspo once he overcame his muscle hearing technique. While Goku was utterly blitzing Hit when he was using the kaioken.
Goku had no issue with Whis' weights once he got used to them and we don't even know how heavy they we're anyway, so using that as an argument is about as dumb as you using Goku Black as some sort of argument. As it is the body weights they used showed to sink into the ground, something that would need to be at least as heavy as a dwarf star. And the DB characters strength is put into striking, not lifting. Much like most fictional martial artists(a dc example would be karate kid, who can rip off arms of guys that could take hits from super girl but only lift as much as Batman. And considering the fact that his strikes have harmed the likes of Frieza, who was only stung by a kaiokenx20 kamehameha(which is radically above anything the planet busters before then could dish out), then goku has been hitting with planetary force since Namek. So again, you've shown to not know what you're talking about.
And again you're comparing DB gods, to dc gods. Big mistake when you consider the fact that DC gods are weak and haven't done much outside of being weaker than the new gods, which haven't shown to be nearly as powerful as the gods of destruction, who threaten universes just when they fight. Something the new and old gods have never shown capable of doing. And Akira never said Goku was never going to be stronger than Beerus, so that's another fail on your part. He said it wouldn't be any time soon, and that was way back before FNF saga. Goku has already surpassed Beerus with Ultra Instinct so again:you fail.
So it's Superman that has never performed those feats, sorry but it's true. Go ahead and keep ignoring feats that have been mentioned though while accusing me of doing it. You'll just come off as a delusional hypocrite though.
And you've confused db fanboys with Superman fanboys, who usually go on tangents and cite feats from different versions of Superman. Much like you have done
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Woah hey I draw the line there. Are you implying that superman isn’t even light speed? Now I feel like your the one low balling this time. Notice that I only care about the speed part. m.youtube.com/watch?v=nyN1e0Gs… I’d be more specific but I’m on my phone at the moment. Though my personal favorite is the nanosecond feat. That alone is above light speed considering light only travels one foot in a nanosecond.
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It's also inconsistent. And the feat you mentioned was mostly travel speed. He was talking, but he never reacted(grab, strike, run, etc) at those speeds. It just supports that he was reacting to at least near those speeds as he was able to perceive what he was doing, which supports that his reactions are a significant fraction of light. The part after that was purely a character making a claim, and even then outracing is still flying travel. I'm not low balling when I mention incidents of Superman failing to react to that speed. You may as well call these:
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
static1.comicvine.com/uploads/…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o… (Black Adam = Superman in physical stats)
pm1.narvii.com/6429/a8f501addc…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
Low balling.
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BTW I was hoping we could do something other then go back and forth with how we view certain feats (heck I'm not even debating vs characters anymore. I'm just defending what I know for sure superman himself can do regardless if the opposition is better or not) so I was wondering can we just have a private chat via notes? Are you a superman fan btw? I'd like to discuss a couple things with you in private. Nothing about vs matches I assure you. Just some ideas, unique theories and what stories we've read. Just for fun. Don't have to if you don't want to though. Just an open invitation that you aren't technically obligated to take. Though I'd still appreciate it if you did. Either way your choice. I'll hold no hard feelings.
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Idk man. Again; you're a nice guy, and intelligent. But we don't see to have the same first language and there seems to be some misinterpreting going on. Idk how much of a talk we could possibly have because of it. I mean at least you provide scans, unlike that other guy who...isn't really offering much really.
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Fair enough. Still thought it was worth a shot
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No it doesn’t. What you just said made no sense at all. Your saying because he basically didn’t sprint or attack that somehow means he’s slow. How do you somehow manage to downplay something as simple as a guy demonstrating he can even remotely function/operate at this sort of speed? The fact that that whole conversation happened in a fraction of a nanosecond and the fact that you can clearly see that his hands and position have moved already means he was going faster then light. Doing anything (moving at all) in that time frame at all already puts you at higher then light speeds. Also yeah it’s inconsistent. But at least he has the excuse of being reliant on a specific amount of solar energy so it’s an in universe excuse. Also that black Adam showing is technically slower then the superman flash showing. With Atom only reaching Mach 500 while supes was reaching over Mach 9000. That’s not even a fair comparison. Why is it convenient to use power scaling in that instance but not for other cases? (like when Supes at least matches Jay in the same scan you showed which contradicted the other one you linked me to.) A low showing is a low showing. I don't like that it happens but it does. Why else do you think I haven't been mentioning that DBZ used to suffer from this also? For example images.mangafreak.net/mangas/d… A normal guy with a gun shouldn't have time to do anything if the guy with superhuman speed can save him. The funny thing is despite this actually being a legit low showing I don't actually think this lowly of the characters. But for some reason I ain't seeing the same benefit of the doubt being given to Superman. If anything I feel like the logic in that last reply was similar to the stuff said in the combat speed fallacy www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.co…
Here's one thing I don't get. Why did you not show all the pages of Jay and Supe's race? It Show's that Clark was actually doing pretty well all things considered. Hell you could even see at near the end he was starting to get ahead of Jay with his hand reaching an inch or so. Feels like your omitting important parts of this showing. You even specifically gave me a single panel instead of a full page that said panel belonged to. But then you proceeded to link the part where Jay "steals" Supe's speed (even Jay admits it's cheating) which kind of only serves to cheapen your lowball. So why even include it? I just don't get the logic behind that in a debate when your own proof debunks itself and you still put the link in anyway. Then there is the one where Clark is hit with a light speed attack...only to proceed to still have enough time to react and avoid the 2nd attack (and on top of that under the weakening influence of red sun light) which again only serves to devalue your low showing if it doesn't include a character in a situation/circumstance where he can fairly be judged at his prime. So again why did you use it? The red sun is even in the same page you linked me. That should have been a red flag to tip you off. Then you show an inexperienced superman saying he's not faster then light...despite having plenty of showings suggesting the opposite. They aren't even asking him to react to anything in that scan. Just "outrace" it. You know the thing you agreed that he could do earlier?
The Doctor Light showing is a legit low showing if not for a couple factors. One of them being that its inside a very small space and that superman is known for holding back his full speed around humans so that the sonic boom doesn't hurt them. But here's another thing I don't think makes sense. Even if you have a gun that fires lasers at the speed of light...how on earth are you gonna hit a target that is at the very least faster then your eyes can even see? At most he's gonna see a blur. And even then he shouldn't see anything at all. You don't even need to be light speed to dodge this guy. Hell just "faster then a speeding bullet" should be enough. Not to dodge the laser itself but to keep your opponent from getting a clear aim on you. However lets say your opponent has the power to predict your moves. Ok now things are slightly harder. But still...is it really gonna make that much of a difference? Lets say the guy starts to aim at you. You see his arm "slowly" move up, so you proceed to casually walk out of his range or at least out of the way where the direction of his arm is pointing. Little things like that should have prevented it. Yet the writer had something else entirely happen. So due to all the variables I'm counting at least that one under PIS. All the others have at least specific context and circumstances surrounding them. As for my doctor light example from earlier...these sort of say what I'm thinking should happen static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
1.bp.blogspot.com/-nGpbD4Pj1Is…
Don't want to seem rude or anything but I don't think alot of people (not you specifically) quite comprehend what a nanosecond is. A nanosecond is one BILLIONTH of a second. speed of light is one foot per nanosecond. One foot is 12 inches. Light travels approximately one foot in one nanosecond. One Nanosecond Is to One Second as One Second Is to 31.7 Years. Just...Let that sink in. That is just insane. Having enough super speed to potentially live in this time frame casually having a conversation with someone while everything else is frozen....It'd be like that scene from Megamind where Metroman used super speed to do random things in the world like fly a kite or read a book or drink a smoothy....or Maybe a better example would be the casual way Quicksilver is treated in the X-men films (not the one in avengers). The speeds he was going at wasn't even light speed but they were still insane to watch on screen. And what superman is doing just by casually having a conversation (taking a couple steps froward and moving his arms and hands) as if he were acting in real time. If he can do something this mundane in super speed mode of this level then why not everything else? And just to let you know that I'm not exaggerating or lying to you I'll link you to the full issue. You have my word this happened. readcomiconline.to/Comic/Actio… And just in case you don't want to read the full issue then that's fine. I can just link you the specific pages to make it easier.
2.bp.blogspot.com/6wGlPEuq9nq6…
2.bp.blogspot.com/xgBxQGiHjZku…
2.bp.blogspot.com/rYmiuhnbuANP…
2.bp.blogspot.com/wFpJ98gxd4Mq…
2.bp.blogspot.com/ozhzCx1tauJf…
2.bp.blogspot.com/-qsMnsF3dpC-…
And the even crazier part? This took place in a FRACTION of a nanosecond. Man the writer really laid it on thick in that one. A full nanosecond would have already been impressive enough. But a fraction? Not even one full nanosecond? That means even lowballed this is much higher then light speed.
Lets say I can act in this time frame as if it was in real time. For example in real life I think I could run an average 15 mph (22 feet per second) but if I could do this under nanosecond time frame then from my point of view light would only move 1 foot per second (relative to me) so this would make me at the very least 22 times faster then light if I tried to run as if this time frame was my normal time frame. (remember this whole scenario I made up is just under the assumption of if I had nanosecond level awareness and any kind of shown movement in that time frame, just extrapulated to if all of me was assumed to just move as if things were moving normal for me. Otherwise it would feel stupid to watch my own body move in slow motion relative to my own senses) kind of like if a fictional character moved in a time stop (well more specifically time just really really slowed down, not stopped completely) as if everything was normal. Anyway sorry I basically posted this big wall of text to you. And the worst part is its only mostly focused on a single feat! I'm just making sure you understand my point of view and how I perceive it. So I left no stone unturned. Sorry if it felt like I was talking down to you like a child. I mean't no disrespect. You'd just be surprised how many times I've had to spell things out in some debates (not you specifically).
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No it doesn’t. What you just said made no sense at all.
-Scans don't make sense to you? Kay...
Your saying because he basically didn’t sprint or attack that somehow means he’s slow.
-Kay, so you're English isn't perfect here because that isn't even remotely true. I know this isn't your fault, but the language barrier is kind of starting to get old. I said his reactions are that of a significant fraction of the speed of light. And the scans I provided support that. What you have shown me was not reaction speed of FTL proportions.
How do you somehow manage to downplay something as simple as a guy demonstrating he can even remotely function/operate at this sort of speed? The fact that that whole conversation happened in a fraction of a nanosecond and the fact that you can clearly see that his hands and position have moved already means he was going faster then light. Doing anything (moving at all) in that time frame at all already puts you at higher then light speeds.
-He didn't move at all, he was in the same, arm outstretched position. The scan only had one full body shot of him and that was it, he was flying straight at those speeds.
Also yeah it’s inconsistent. But at least he has the excuse of being reliant on a specific amount of solar energy so it’s an in universe excuse. Also that black Adam showing is technically slower then the superman flash showing. With Atom only reaching Mach 500 while supes was reaching over Mach 9000. That’s not even a fair comparison. Why is it convenient to use power scaling in that instance but not for other cases?
-What are you talking about? It really isn't as both Superman and Adam were portrayed as being slower than Jay the moment Jay put all of his speed into gear. Both Superman and Adam were moving near the speed of light in those scans, so idk where this "mach 500/9000" thing came from. And the entirety of my reply was using scaling for everyone. You see; this is what I am talking about: you clearly did not fully understand my reply. I used scaling for beings like Black Adam and Captain Marvel as they have been consistently portrayed as Supermans physical equal, while I compare Goku to those he is comparable too. It's the same thing.
"(like when Supes at least matches Jay in the same scan you showed which contradicted the other one you linked me to.)"
-Except he didn't:
static.comicvine.com/uploads/s…
nerdist.com/flash-superman-fas…
As you can clearly see, Jay was faster. He was running out of endurance so he stole Supermans speed to try and help him catch Wally.
"A low showing is a low showing. I don't like that it happens but it does."
-A consistent showing is a consistent showing. And it is supported by the previous scans I provided.
"Why else do you think I haven't been mentioning that DBZ used to suffer from this also? For example images.mangafreak.net/mangas/d… A normal guy with a gun shouldn't have time to do anything if the guy with superhuman speed can save him."
-How did you come to this conclusion? Buu, and everyone, was ignoring Hercule. Anyone who has read the context and even the series would know this. You people keep citing sources you don't even have a clue about. Hercule was shooting at the ki blast, and it did nothing. No one was acknowledging Hercule because he wasn't a threat, that is why he could do what he did, why would they make any effort otherwise? Again; someone who actually knew anything about the series would know this.
"The funny thing is despite this actually being a legit low showing I don't actually think this lowly of the characters."
-Except it's not a low showing, just you misinterpreting a scan spectacularly.
"But for some reason I ain't seeing the same benefit of the doubt being given to Superman. If anything I feel like the logic in that last reply was similar to the stuff said in the combat speed fallacy www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.co… "
-That's because you can't even understand what I am saying. It isn't your fault, your English is okay, but you clearly have a language barrier problem here and this needs to stop now. I provided scans that proved how Superman reacted to below light speed. You provided a scan that wasn't even close to being even remotely what you claimed it did. It wasn't even a showing.
"Here's one thing I don't get. Why did you not show all the pages of Jay and Supe's race? It Show's that Clark was actually doing pretty well all things considered. Hell you could even see at near the end he was starting to get ahead of Jay with his hand reaching an inch or so. Feels like your omitting important parts of this showing. You even specifically gave me a single panel instead of a full page that said panel belonged to. But then you proceeded to link the part where Jay "steals" Supe's speed (even Jay admits it's cheating) which kind of only serves to cheapen your lowball. So why even include it? I just don't get the logic behind that in a debate when your own proof debunks itself and you still put the link in anyway."
-Providing scans isn't a lowball and you should learn the definition of the words you think of before using them. I didn't omit anything, so that's just not true. And I couldn't find the full part of the scan you're referring so I used that. But you know full well that the rest of it just has Jay speeding ahead of Superman, just forthe guy who is controlled Barry to "nope" their efforts.
Here is the actual end of it:
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
^-He even reached Wally first.
"Then there is the one where Clark is hit with a light speed attack...only to proceed to still have enough time to react and avoid the 2nd attack (and on top of that under the weakening influence of red sun light) which again only serves to devalue your low showing if it doesn't include a character in a situation/circumstance where he can fairly be judged at his prime. So again why did you use it? The red sun is even in the same page you linked me. That should have been a red flag to tip you off. Then you show an inexperienced superman saying he's not faster then light...despite having plenty of showings suggesting the opposite. They aren't even asking him to react to anything in that scan. Just "outrace" it. You know the thing you agreed that he could do earlier?"
-More misinterpreting. Wonderful. He aim dodged the second shot, he didn't move while it was moving towards him, he outreacted Doctor Light, not the attack. So the showing is solid, you just didn't understand it. And he doesn't have showings suggesting otherwise, otherwise you would have provided them other than travel speed feats. I provided other scans to support it, so it's consistent.
"The Doctor Light showing is a legit low showing if not for a couple factors. One of them being that its inside a very small space and that superman is known for holding back his full speed around humans so that the sonic boom doesn't hurt them."
-Which makes it even worse because then that means while he was flying slow his senses would be heightened. Just because he flies slow, doesn't mean his senses are down to match. Which means, from his perspective, he would be moving at a snail pace, having more than enough time to react to something if he sees it. He didn't see the light coming because it was just too fast.
"But here's another thing I don't think makes sense."
-Probably because you've misinterpreted it.
"Even if you have a gun that fires lasers at the speed of light...how on earth are you gonna hit a target that is at the very least faster then your eyes can even see? At most he's gonna see a blur. And even then he shouldn't see anything at all. You don't even need to be light speed to dodge this guy. Hell just "faster then a speeding bullet" should be enough. Not to dodge the laser itself but to keep your opponent from getting a clear aim on you. However lets say your opponent has the power to predict your moves. Ok now things are slightly harder. But still...is it really gonna make that much of a difference? Lets say the guy starts to aim at you. You see his arm "slowly" move up, so you proceed to casually walk out of his range or at least out of the way where the direction of his arm is pointing. Little things like that should have prevented it."
-None of this has anything even remotely to do with what happened in the scan.
"Yet the writer had something else entirely happen. So due to all the variables I'm counting at least that one under PIS."
-The variables are out of your misinterpreting scans while ignoring the others that support it.
"All the others have at least specific context and circumstances surrounding them."
-That isn't even true. This just boils down to: "I can't refute them so, I'll just ignore them!"
Here's another:
static1.comicvine.com/uploads/…
^-Explains the difference between speed and reactions. It is stated, and admitted by Superman that he cannot react as fast as he can move.
"As for my doctor light example from earlier...these sort of say what I'm thinking should happen static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
1.bp.blogspot.com/-nGpbD4Pj1Is… "
-What's amusing is that this supports what I said happened when Doctor Light hit him the second time. Supes wasn't fully aware of what was happening the first time around, but if he were FTL he should have seen something moving merely at the speed of light coming at him. But he didn't.
"Don't want to seem rude or anything but I don't think alot of people (not you specifically) quite comprehend what a nanosecond is. A nanosecond is one BILLIONTH of a second. speed of light is one foot per nanosecond. One foot is 12 inches. Light travels approximately one foot in one nanosecond. One Nanosecond Is to One Second as One Second Is to 31.7 Years. Just...Let that sink in. That is just insane. Having enough super speed to potentially live in this time frame casually having a conversation with someone while everything else is frozen....It'd be like that scene from Megamind where Metroman used super speed to do random things in the world like fly a kite or read a book or drink a smoothy....or Maybe a better example would be the casual way Quicksilver is treated in the X-men films (not the one in avengers). The speeds he was going at wasn't even light speed but they were still insane to watch on screen. And what superman is doing just by casually having a conversation (taking a couple steps froward and moving his arms and hands) as if he were acting in real time. If he can do something this mundane in super speed mode of this level then why not everything else? And just to let you know that I'm not exaggerating or lying to you I'll link you to the full issue. You have my word this happened. readcomiconline.to/Comic/Actio… And just in case you don't want to read the full issue then that's fine. I can just link you the specific pages to make it easier. "
-And if Superman did anything like that, then you'd have something. But he just flew in a straight line and said a minor sentence. That still supports my claim. And just so we are clear, I have been talking about this:
i.imgur.com/COVTtgR.jpg
Not this:
"2.bp.blogspot.com/6wGlPEuq9nq6…
2.bp.blogspot.com/xgBxQGiHjZku…
2.bp.blogspot.com/rYmiuhnbuANP…
2.bp.blogspot.com/wFpJ98gxd4Mq…
2.bp.blogspot.com/ozhzCx1tauJf…
2.bp.blogspot.com/-qsMnsF3dpC-…
And the even crazier part? This took place in a FRACTION of a nanosecond. Man the writer really laid it on thick in that one. A full nanosecond would have already been impressive enough. But a fraction? Not even one full nanosecond? That means even lowballed this is much higher then light speed. "
-So...the problem with this feats is....lots. Its from Action Comics 642 IIRC. Clark was summoned by the ring as a possible alternative for a dying Hal Jordan.
1) It would be considered a time travel feat....not just an FTL reaction feat...given that everyone summoned in that scan were brought to be "inspected" within a nanosecond of time. At that time, Clark was routinely at his nerfed levels due to John Byrne. Clark could expressly not travel time as seen in Action Comics 591 when he failed to enter the time stream chasing Superboy down only a few years later. Not long after, he was flung around the time stream helplessly in Action 664. There are many more instances of Clark not being able to overcome time dilation since he was powered up (SEE: Waverider).
2) Clark was not powered up until Superman 82, volume 2. Thereafter he did things on a much larger scale and his speed increased as seen in Man of Steel 29....yet....Clark could not overcome time dilation (yet again), and that feat is an indicator that Clark is near light speed in reactions...not FTL. The feat from Action Comics 642 is from 1989...well before Clark was first powered up.
3) Everyone that was brought to be inspected within that nanosecond of time performed miraculous things due to being juiced on Oan ring energy, via Hal. I'd be hard pressed to not say that is exactly why Clark was able to freely interact within a nano second of time....being juiced on Oan energy....notwithstanding the previously described discrepancies. He even remarked at the end of the book that he was invigorated or some such...so, I'm not really buying it. You'd also be saying that Deadman is MFTL as well.
The thing with post Crisis Clark's reaction speed is that the inconsistencies aren't just random inconsistencies. They are inconsistencies that occur between very specific points within the character's continuity. I'm fine saying Clark is close to light speed in reaction time. I'd be hard pressed to say he could even match light in reaction speed.
"Lets say I can act in this time frame as if it was in real time. For example in real life I think I could run an average 15 mph (22 feet per second) but if I could do this under nanosecond time frame then from my point of view light would only move 1 foot per second (relative to me) so this would make me at the very least 22 times faster then light if I tried to run as if this time frame was my normal time frame. (remember this whole scenario I made up is just under the assumption of if I had nanosecond level awareness and any kind of shown movement in that time frame, just extrapulated to if all of me was assumed to just move as if things were moving normal for me. Otherwise it would feel stupid to watch my own body move in slow motion relative to my own senses) kind of like if a fictional character moved in a time stop (well more specifically time just really really slowed down, not stopped completely) as if everything was normal. Anyway sorry I basically posted this big wall of text to you. And the worst part is its only mostly focused on a single feat! I'm just making sure you understand my point of view and how I perceive it. So I left no stone unturned. Sorry if it felt like I was talking down to you like a child. I mean't no disrespect. You'd just be surprised how many times I've had to spell things out in some debates (not you specifically)."
-As I explained, Supes wasn't moving that fast during the last comic you presented me.
I did not mean to offend you, you seem like a nice guy. But it is getting hard to have a conversation with this language barrier here. I feel you do not quite understand what I have been saying and vice versa.
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I have a feeling we aren’t gonna ever agree on this topic so I’ll jusy drop it. Also what do yo mean by “you people”? Kinda rude to lump people together in groups. Just saying. Other then the other guy this was only between you and me.
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I'm sorry, from what I saw in some of his comments I thought you and he were friends or something. Thanks for the mature and civil exchange. Thanks for providing feats as well and not wank like the other guy is doing.
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I have more links just if your interested i.imgur.com/ZzGWRxK.jpg
static.comicvine.com/uploads/s…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
static1.comicvine.com/uploads/…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
static.comicvine.com/uploads/o…
If Supe's has enough speed to do something as complex as rebuilding entire buildings in seconds then I could easily see him recreating the same scene quicksilver did in the movie.
Why did you ignore the part where Deadman said "this time suspension stuff doesn't work on me. I'm dead" when you tried to imply that I thought that he was MFTL. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqsg7n…
BTW the mach 9000 speed feat was in the first video I sent you earlier. Kind of surprised you forgot that so fast. So either Black Adam is getting scaled up from that or superman is getting scaled down. Take your pick. Though personally I think we both know which end of the spectrum we'd pick for ourselves.
The gohan Example wasn't mean't to lowball the ki blast speed. I'm not stupid. Of course I'd know Buu held back. So that should mean it should have been easy for Gohan to intercept it. Not say "oh no!" and then show Satan shooting bullets at it. Gohan should have saved him. It doesn't matter that he was being ignored. Because he was noticed after the blast had been fired. A slow blast that Satan had time to react to So Gohan had time to react as well and do something about it. It's a plot hole. I'm not saying he wasn't fast enough. I'm saying he SHOULD be more then fast enough by your logic. At his level a few precious seconds should feel like hours. All the time in the world. Basically just switch this situation with quicksilver and Hercule would have been saved regardless of if he was noticed only at the last moment. There's even an interesting video calculating Quicksilvers speed in that scene
youtu.be/T2lBsFbWe4w?t=945 The Speed quicksilver was moving at in that scene was at least over mach 8,202.
Considering Superman was matching flash at speeds over 2000 miles per second (which if my math is right would be over 120,000 miles/minute, and also 7,200,000 mph. That's Mach 9350. So He could recreate the same scene quicksilver did in a similar situation if he wanted to. It would be like if a random civilian said "oh no!" while a gun is pointed at them and if superman wasn't paying attention to the civilian before then it wouldn't matter now since he'd still be aware afterwards and would catch the bullet. At least that's the analogy I'm going for. The writer of this particular issue(Dwayne McDuffie) said that what Wonder Woman had said was not objectively true and that, most importantly, this was still only Wonder Woman's opinion and not a proven fact. Besides Wonder Woman has reacted to FTL events and she's still power scaled pretty closely to superman. Otherwise their fights would be alot more one sided. Though to be honest I'm tired of writing paragraphs. This conversation has been dragging on. If you don't change your mind and vice versa then we really are gonna be going in circles. I'd rather not be here for days taking up precious space on this comment section of a art page. Instead of me proving scans I can just link a whole respect thread.
www.reddit.com/r/respectthread… With my luck it probably won't change anything (these debates usually go that way anyway from my experience. They only seem to make people feel even stronger of their original position.
img00.deviantart.net/4600/i/20…
Just letting you know I AM a fan of DBZ to. Don't want you getting the wrong impression. orig00.deviantart.net/642e/f/2… I'm not really using this for the debate. I just think it's cool and thought I'd share it with you just for the hell of it.
BTW the red sun thing still plays a factor. You kinda skipped that part. Super speed in general has alot of interpretations. Sometimes it's like a light switch and thus your vulnerable in real time if you don't turn them on. Other times it's different. I imagine that when Slade gets hits on flash it's not because Wally couldnt react but because suppressing his full speed does the same for his reactions. plus.google.com/+UltraJanembaR…
Still though I fear that we still don't understand what the other is saying. We both have our points of view after all I suppose. (you know what I hate though? That I felt the compulsion to even post this instead of letting the debate die. I should be stopping this. But our different views for some reason your replies (mostly the parts that lumped me in with other people) as if I was some kind of fanboy. Not gonna lie that was pretty irritating) So I'm probably only gonna post one or two more times after this at most. Otherwise I'll start to think it's a lost cause.
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He is my friend. But That's not the same as saying he speaks for me or vice versa. I still think your wrong in some of your claims but I can see now nothing is going to change. I did not like being accused of "ignore them!" but all the same I'm glad it was civil as it was. Most of the time DBZ fans say much worse things to me.
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For me, it's usually the Superman fans that are the most toxic. The more erratic butthurt ones(like your friend) seem to be crawling out of the depths ever since Super aired.
At the dawn of the internet, it was the db famboys that terrorized the internet. Then it was the Naruto fanboys. Now it seems like the Superman fanboys are the current trend, miffed about the goings on in Super.
Not saying you're a fanboy, but with what I've been seeing you can understand why I was being a bit generalist. I prefer to debate at the rumbles section in comicbookresources, who use high end consistent feats. Which is why Superman(post crises) is regarded as a moon buster at best with significant fraction of light reflexes and is harmed by planet busting attacks. NU and current Supes are regarded as being just as fast, but with large planet busting strength.
Anyway, I'm done debating here too. Come to the site I just mentioned and check it out if you're interested.
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I could see why you would think that. For me it's still the DBZ fanboys who are toxic as they would still be like this even without DBS. In fact they still are. If anything I think superman fans have the shorter end of the stick in this time. They have to deal with constantly defending their characters feats and his relevance. I don't see people hyping him up. I see a majority calling him overpowered. A mary sue. Things like that. it's seems to be more popular to post pictures of supes losing to batman for example then it is the other way around. You have pictures that have batman picking up thor's hammer "because he's batman!" but with superman it seems like the opposite. As if there is this stigma he can't quite shake. People love Goku and DBZ but I never see him struggling to be called a good character or something similar. I still regard superman as not perfect but as a guy who's still at least a planet buster as well as faster then light (both reactions and speed)
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I've seen the opposite, and far more often than the other. DB fans were constantly being mocked after Death Battle. Now all of the sudden Superman fanboys are freaking out, a lot of them ranking him(post-crisis here btw) as Universal+ and faster than Wally.
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I’m still seeing more with the other way around on my end. Dbs fans love rubbing it in that you’d think they had nothing better to do. I guess it’s a matter of perspective.
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Nope.
My question was this: Can Goku (and ONLY Goku) can match the potential power AND durability of Superman?
No. He can't. Why??
Because DBS has stated one too many times that Goku is MORTAL and has LIMITED ENERGY and cannot strategize worth a darn.
And yes, I am in fact using canon devices as they happened in the current DC timeline.
Your reply was long & you took some sweet time about it but you could'nt answer my question about one simple equation. That was the point!
Oh yeah, DC Universe characters have often manipulated the Universe as they sought fit. Much more reliable than just "wiping out worlds" with a finger.
Also, Goku hasn't surpassed Beerus. They only stated that Jiren was the only fighter to match up with the Gods of DBZ.
PS. Toriyama said in an interview that neither Goku/Vegeta will never surpass Beerus "any time soon" which in English means that they won't.
Debate all you want, but if an official source shows something happening, then YES, it actually happened!!
Canon or not, it aint an excuse to ignore.
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"Nope. "
Yep
"My question was this: Can Goku (and ONLY Goku) can match the potential power AND durability of Superman?
No. He can't. Why??"
-"Let me guess; he is going to ignore everything I presented again"
"Because DBS has stated one too many times that Goku is MORTAL and has LIMITED ENERGY and cannot strategize worth a darn."
-Yep! And once again you source something you don't even know anything about and come out looking foolish. No one ever said he can't strategies worth a damn, he has been often stated as being a genius fighter. Superman is also mortal, and even DC agrees he has limits:
www.google.ca/search?q=superma… :
So not only do you not know what you're talking about when it comes to DB, but also when it comes to Superman, the very character you're trying to defend. Good job.
"And yes, I am in fact using canon devices as they happened in the current DC timeline."
-No you're not you liar. Otherwise you wouldn't have provided non-canon scans to support your nonsense, and the few you did try to cite for Dragonball ended up being very different than what you said it was.
"Your reply was long & you took some sweet time about it but you could'nt answer my question about one simple equation. That was the point!"
-Except I did answer your post so that's a lie. And I work, unlike you I have a life, while you took forever in your initial replies. You didn't even have a point outside of claiming Goku couldn't do a certain thing he actually has been proven to do.
"Oh yeah, DC Universe characters have often manipulated the Universe as they sought fit. Much more reliable than just "wiping out worlds" with a finger. "
-So you know when you said DBfanboys like to go on tandems that aren't even about the topic? Guess what this is? Did I ever say anything about this? No. Is this even about those cosmics like the Spectre and 5D imps? No. You cited Zeus, who is weak as shit when compared to his Marvel counterpart and isn't even worth citing as an example of anything. He sure and heck can't wipe out worlds with a finger.
"Also, Goku hasn't surpassed Beerus. They only stated that Jiren was the only fighter to match up with the Gods of DBZ."
-So once again, unless you've watched the show, don't bother commenting on it as you'll just make yourself look foolish. Using Ultra Instinct he was not only matching Jiren but was overcoming him right before it turned off. This was both stated and shown, it was why Belmod was freaking out. That would put him above Beerus now.
"PS. Toriyama said in an interview that neither Goku/Vegeta will never surpass Beerus "any time soon" which in English means that they won't."
-This reeks of desperation. In the English language that you should know about by now: it means "anytime soon". Not "never", just not anytime soon. That was back when the anime was first beginning, you citing it is not only stupid, but it makes you look desperate to actually have something. Guess what" You're still reaching for air
"Debate all you want, but if an official source shows something happening, then YES, it actually happened!!"
-And the official source has shown Goku surpassing Beerus when he activated Ultra Instinct. Again: Jiren beat Belmod, and even he was freaking out when Goku started gaining ground on the guy who was stated to have surpassed the Gods of Destruction.
"Canon or not, it aint an excuse to ignore. "
-It means it was a different version of Superman, who is not physically comparable to his Rebirth counterpart on the grounds of him being a different Superman. How is this so hard to understand?
And you know that is funny you say that? For that is exactly what you have been doing. For every feat I mentioned with Goku, you have ignored it. For every question that was answered with an answer you didn't like, you ignored it. You're such a big hypocrite, but you just don't see it.
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You ignored everything I presented, too. For example, if I showed you a link where Toriyama said that Goku will never surpass Beerus, you'd say something else entirely & miss the point.
Jiren did beat one of the Gods, which was impressive, but you did not count the fact that Goku could not even beat him despite his performance in UI mode. And which "source" did you mean, by the way? From what I watched in the show, I don't recall them ever stating that Goku would beat any of the Gods. At least in a non-exaggerated way, which characters seem to have a problem with.
Just because it's a different Superman, doesn't mean a prime Superman isn't capable of doing the same thing. the storyline may be different, but its still the same as what Superman can accomplish. Same may go to other non-canon DBZ movies.
Also, UI mode wastes too much energy as does God mode. But since Goku had to achieve those power levels synthetically, then I guess I can say that Superman can just fly up to the sun & become more powerful. Then what?
[pause]
You know something? I think we seem to be debating on fighting skills alone when Superman can use so much more than that. Look at this comic we're discussing about; you're seeing Superman using mental projection that nobody else can over come. You also forget that Superman can PHASE through punches & energy beams. X-Ray vision can calculate where any person is, even if they were invisible. Heat Vision can not only BURN any mortal, but also works on a MOLECULAR level. Unless Goku can use a plasma beam/shield, he cannot withstand intense temperatures. Even if UI Goku dodged his Heat Vision, what's stopping Superman from countering all Goku's punches?
Hell, if Superman had enough, he grab Goku fist in mid-punch & CRUSH it into oblivion.
Or, he could just lobotimize Goku without him even knowing it. Fighting skills alone don't cut it.
Goku has already admitted that he CANNOT stratigize whereas Superman can, even against multiple plans while fighting in Valhala for over 1,000 YEARS. That's a lot of experience if I may say so.
and now this... Just because a random character said something about Goku, does not imply that Goku can flat out do it because we have yet to actually SEE him do it, rather than waste time on just debating the matter. Goku was getting some good punches in, buuuut... they weren't doing much to Jiren at all. Yet, we're talking about a being who is on NIGH-INVULNERABLE level.
Goku, no matter which way you swing at it, is only Mortal. Superman isn't. He can live forever & can escape Black Holes.
Goku is beset upon his limits, wheras Superman isn't. Goku can only fight for so long before his Ki becomes depleted, wheras Superman can just go on if he wants to.
You can go ahead & "debunk" my words all you want, but you cannot judge Superman on DBZ levels. He just too invincible for Goku to punch on. Even *IF* Goku can have so-called planet punching power, it would completely drain his energy or kill him in the process, or just cause his Ki to go haywire after his 1st fight with Hit.
Unless we can correctly talk about this by using actual SCANS from the comic or anime, that is. Because I've seen where Superman survives the collapse of a UNIVERSE whereas Goku admits in DBS.12 that further collisions with Beerus will only KILL HIM.
In which case, Xenomaster can provide for you...
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A"You ignored everything I presented, too. For example, if I showed you a link where Toriyama said that Goku will never surpass Beerus, you'd say something else entirely & miss the point."
-This is false. I have responded to everything you've said, quoting each part. You just didn't like the answers. I explained to you that the link in question was well before the current saga, and things have changed. We know this, because we seen it. Like what is wrong with you? We see Goku match, and begin to overcome a guy who is flat out stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction and yet you still cling on to an old quote? You continue to claim Akira meant Goku would never reach Beerus' level when that is not at all what is said. You're pathetic XD.
"Jiren did beat one of the Gods, which was impressive, but you did not count the fact that Goku could not even beat him despite his performance in UI mode. And which "source" did you mean, by the way? From what I watched in the show, I don't recall them ever stating that Goku would beat any of the Gods. At least in a non-exaggerated way,"
-His performance is what showed it. And it was said by everyone that he was gaining ground on Jiren, with even Toppa saying "I never seen Jiren be pushed so far before!". And that is including his fight with Belmod. And Beerus and the rest of the Gods were freaking out over Gokus power. He's at that level now, Akira only said what he said at the beginning of the Battle of the Gods saga, and Goku wasn't as strong as Beerus "anytime soon". Since then, it has been nearly 3 years into the series. If he isn't at that level now, he is so damn close that by the end of the arc he will be. But considering he was gaining on someone who beat Belmod, I'd say he is already at least comparable.
"which characters seem to have a problem with."
-Not even remotely true, and I doubt you'll expand as you have a problem with using words and phrases improperly.
"Just because it's a different Superman, doesn't mean a prime Superman isn't capable of doing the same thing. the storyline may be different, but its still the same as what Superman can accomplish. Same may go to other non-canon DBZ movies."
-False on both statements. Different Superman, different league, different everything. We know it isn't something current Superman can do, because Wonder Woman and Shazam alone are capable of giving him a fight. It has been shown that Shazam is his equal in all physical stats, and Wonder Woman has gone toe to toe with a blood lusted Superman before and not die. Then there is the fact that he broke out of Kyles barrier, something current Supes would be incapable of doing as post-crisis Kyle could contain the likes of a blackhole and drag around planets like they are nothing(while post-crisis Supes repeatedly had trouble moving them on his own, always needing help).
The point is, current Superman just can't do that to the current incarnations of those characters. He would fail if he tried, that is why the scan you presented doesn't matter. It's a different Superman fighting a different version of the JL. Heck, later he needed exobytes in order to survive Brainiacs planet busting beam, something current Superman would not need in order to survive. And as for the DB movies? Prior to Super, the anime versions of the characters were astronomically more powerful than their manga counterparts. Which is why no one uses them in most debates because filler and the movies wank the characters power to absurd levels. One filler had Vegeta casually blowing up a planet and it's moon with a death beam like attack. Where in canon he needs to charge up his Galick Gun to just blow up Earth. That isn't even getting into the fact that the movies make instant transmission(a teleportation technique), out to be a speed enhancement technique that allows the user to move and react at speeds that allowed Goku to traverse an entire galaxy in a couple hours. To put it simply: the gap was so big, that filler/movie Goku as a normal SSJ1, would utterly and completely stomp his canon, manga SSJ3 counterpart with a blitz and at least comparable firepower. That is how much more powerful the anime counterparts were prior to Super. Up to this point I have only been referring to canon, manga and the anime. Most people in your cisutation would be debating for canon Superman. Using a non-canon Superman blitzing a non-canon JL(both sides before then showed to not be on par with their post-crisis counterparts, not just Superman, everyone)JL isn't a good argument. Especially when we have actual canon scans of just one of those characters taking him on:
pre00.deviantart.net/6923/th/p…
hero-envy.blogspot.ca/2011/05/…
canon contradicts non-canon. Canon takes priorty however, which is why most people talk strictly canon.
"Also, UI mode wastes too much energy as does God mode. But since Goku had to achieve those power levels synthetically, then I guess I can say that Superman can just fly up to the sun & become more powerful. Then what?"
-Yes, because Goku is going to let him get there, let alone stay in there long enough to get to that point. And Goku has achieved it normally after fighting Kelfa. Not that it even matters, as even Buu saga Goku has the power to defeat Superman. Ultra Instinct Goku hits harder than this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bptNQz…
Show a scan of Rebirth Superman doing that. Then we'll talk who can take who in a fight, because if you think Superman could even hurt that, you're crazy.
"You know something? I think we seem to be debating on fighting skills alone when Superman can use so much more than that."
-No...no we actually haven't been, like what? We have been talking about strength, durability, speed(or I've been mentioning them, you've been ignoring Gokus), and canon, etc. This has never been about fighting skill, it's a given that born and trained martial artist is a better fighter than the above average brawler. Which is why it hasn't been talked about. Do you live in another world or something?
"Look at this comic we're discussing about; you're seeing Superman using mental projection that nobody else can over come."
-You do realize this is a fan made comic right? And that no version of Superman has ever done anything like this before? This is specifically unique to this fanfiction and this fanfiction alone, like seriously? You don't even know much about the character you're defending.
"You also forget that Superman can PHASE through punches & energy beams."
The phasing only works on those much much slower than him, it isn't something that is going to work on Goku, just like it never was usable against those of his speed. Speedsters of comparable speed don't ever use it on each other for the same friggin reason, that is why Barry and Thawne have no problem harming each other. Again; you don't even understand the things you are referring too.
"X-Ray vision can calculate where any person is, even if they were invisible."
-So again; doing the very thing you accused DB fanboys of doing: Going on a random tangent. Goku doesn't go invisible, so his X-ray isn't going to be of much use unless he wants to see what Goku is "packing".
Heat Vision can not only BURN any mortal,
-Except against any mortal durable enough to withstand it.
but also works on a MOLECULAR level.
-No..not really. Again; that only works if the person in question isn't tough enough to withstand it. Which Goku absolutely is.
"Unless Goku can use a plasma beam/shield, he cannot withstand intense temperatures.
-Based on what, exactly? It's an energy beam, and Goku has fought around molten lava just fine and only needed a suit for the centre of the earth due to a lack of oxygen. Energy(which is what their ki is)generates a lot of heat, so there is nothing to suggest Goku would be affected by it anymore than a ki attack.
"Even if UI Goku dodged his Heat Vision, what's stopping Superman from countering all Goku's punches?"
-Okay..I'm sorry but you are really bad at this. Debating I mean. You offer no scans, and ignore everything that I have said to you. Everything. I have, already explained in depth as to why such a thing would be ridiculous. The clip above shows why that won't work. Goku, as a SSJ on Namek, was punching hard enough to harm Frieza; a guy who treats blasts from a planet busting Vegeta like a joke and be only somewhat stung by a Kaiokenx20 Kamehameha, and later, despite being sliced into three pieces, completely devoid of energy, beaten to a bloody pulp, and having half his face blown off during his last attempt to kill Goku, open wounds and all; Frieza wasn't even harmed from Namek exploding despite being on ground zero. The only woulds seen on him are the ones Goku gave him. These characters have shown to be more than capable of tanking what they can dish out. At the moment they are near universal, so you may as well be arguing that Superman is Universal.
"Hell, if Superman had enough, he grab Goku fist in mid-punch & CRUSH it into oblivion."
-He would have to not only faster, but stronger. Which he is neither. He can't even hurt Goku anymore, stopped being able to by late Cell-Buu saga.
"Or, he could just lobotimize Goku without him even knowing it. Fighting skills alone don't cut it."
-No but durability does, which is why it is never used on those of his durability or higher as they are too tough. This isn't a human like Manchester Black, the only character he ever used it on in canon.
"Goku has already admitted that he CANNOT stratigize"
-Long term. As far as a fight that is going on, he has repeatedly shown to do just that:
community.comicbookresources.c…
Educate yourself a bit^. Only goes to the end of the Saiyan Saga, but still shows off Gokus ability in fighting, which you are also downplaying.
"whereas Superman can, even against multiple plans while fighting in Valhala for over 1,000 YEARS. That's a lot of experience if I may say so."
- Not really when most of the enemies were nowhere near on his level. Again; you really suck at this. This isn't even a feat that would help him in a one on one fight, you're going on a tangent, being what you claimed DBfanboys do. Guess what that makes you? Goku his better trained, fought other experienced martial artists, and is just an all around better fighter. That isn't even getting into his physical abilities, which dwarf Supermans.
"and now this... Just because a random character said something about Goku, does not imply that Goku can flat out do it because we have yet to actually SEE him do it, rather than waste time on just debating the matter."
-We did, are you delusional? These aren't random characters either, have you even watched it? Toppa said he never saw Jiren get pushed like that before, Belmod, the very guy Jiren beat, was freaking the hell out. All of the Gods of Destruction were flipping out when they saw what Goku did. Deal with it.
And it doesn't even matter because Goku doesn't need to use Ultra Instinct, by this point of the series his base form is more than enough.
"Goku was getting some good punches in, buuuut... they weren't doing much to Jiren at all. Yet, we're talking about a being who is on NIGH-INVULNERABLE level."
-And once again you haven't even seen what you are referring. Goku hit him once, which clearly stunned Jiren, and the blast sent him back. Then there was what he did to Kefla, who was stated to be comparable to what Goku was when he first used Ultra Instinct, as even Whis clarifies. And Superman isn't nigh invulnerable. Beings have shown more than capable of hurting him if they are strong enough. That's why he has lost slug fests before, and compared to these guys? He may as well be paper.
"Goku, no matter which way you swing at it, is only Mortal. Superman isn't. He can live forever & can escape Black Holes."
-And this is just wrong in every way. Superman is also mortal, he can be killed. And he does age, it just takes an absurd time unless he lives inside the sun. That is why in so many futures there is only one Superman(Like Superman One Million, and One Million Prime). There were versions of Superman who had retired, having lived for millions of years, finally too old to continue. And Superman never escaped a real blackhole. The only one he has been in was a small one that opened up in Metropolis. Considering it didn't suck anything from the city up, it clearly was nothing like a real Blackhole. Goku recently went through a condensed blackhole however, having the gravity so intense that, unlike the Blackhole Supes was in, Light couldn't escape from it, and it was sinking through the arena made out of the strongest material in their multiverse. A weakened Goku blew through it with a Kamehameha to take out the casters.
"Goku is beset upon his limits, wheras Superman isn't. Goku can only fight for so long before his Ki becomes depleted, wheras Superman can just go on if he wants to."
-So once again that isn't true either. I gave you a link that fla tout states he has limits, so now you're just referencing a fanvideo while ignoring again canon. And Superman relies on how much solar energy he has within him, which depletes the more he uses his powers.
qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-…
And again; it won't matter as Goku trumps him by such a large degree, that the fight won't be long. Superman will be dying, and quick.
"You can go ahead & "debunk" my words all you want, but you cannot judge Superman on DBZ levels."
-I'm not you deluded fanboy, I'm judging him by feats. You aren't.
"He just too invincible for Goku to punch on. Even *IF* Goku can have so-called planet punching power, it would completely drain his energy or kill him in the process, or just cause his Ki to go haywire after his 1st fight with Hit."
-Your ignorance is astounding. It is truly cringe worthy. Superman has been beaten by less, as I have shown you. He isn't unkillable or unbeatable, as the comics have shown you. Goku has better feats, it's that simple. I have cited canon, and provided scans. You have only offered one non-canon scan. Goku kills Superman in one hit, while current Superman can't even harm SS2 Goku from the Buu saga. I bet you don't even know what that means, as you clearly don't know a single thing about Dragonball. Yet you try to argue as if you do, but fail spectacularly.
"Unless we can correctly talk about this by using actual SCANS from the comic or anime, that is."
-You really are deluded aren't you? My last reply alone had scans in it. It's you who hasn't provided anything.
"Because I've seen where Superman survives the collapse of a UNIVERSE whereas Goku admits in DBS.12 that further collisions with Beerus will only KILL HIM."
-So no, you haven't. Not Rebirth/Nu/Post-crisis Superman you haven't. Even Pre-Crisis Superman was killed by a big Bang. So you will once again not use the mainstream version, and use a completely different version all together to support this. That or wank the hell out of something, but you have already failed pretty hard with this post of yours so, Idk how you can manage anymore though.
So at the end: I have canon and scans and videos to support my argument, and have provided as such in my last post(which you have clearly ignored), and this one. You have yet to do so, and instead went on one long tangent that didn't even have much to do with an actual fight. You...you're really bad at this. This is kind of a feat within itself, like just wow.
I don't even know who Xenomaster is, though the fact that you have to call for help is....telling XD.
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What are you dragging me into?
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Nothing. Just giving him a link to your resources, though not directly since I can barely copy-paste links on my iphone.
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So, who's the possible future pain in my ass?
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Oh, nobody of concern. We were having a little "chat" about the comic in regards of this n' that. Even Segamarvel came in to chat with. Sorry if it seemed I was bringing you into something.
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No one has contacted me yet, so you're safe from my wrath
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