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Imalou β Sleep tight filly
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Published: 2018-03-01 23:00:13 +0000 UTC; Views: 8703; Favourites: 639; Downloads: 168
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"Why does she have so much hate"
I don't even know who this character is, but she's adorable.
I also feel the eyes look "dull" and quickly caught my attention after looking at the hair which really pops.
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Nyx from the fic Past Sins by Pen Stroke.
Spoilers (But not really):Β She's basically Nightmare Moon reborn as a filly, and given a home with Twilight.Β Has some follow-up stories, most of them fairly short.
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My impression was that people were more pissed by the massively OOC Celestia rather than by Nyx herself, but maybe that's just me.
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The thing that started in 2014 and didn't exist prior and yet she recieved even more hate?
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You know I really have a hard time believing people hate Nyx genuinely when I see this.
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Some people genuinely dislike her, because she looks like a stereotypical bad alicorn OC. In my opinion, the fanfic makes her a good character.Β
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I can see where the hate comes from design wise but personality wise I don't get it. She's just a super sweet filly with some issues.
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To be honest, I like her better as an adult than a filly.
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You'd like Black Feather on Fimfiction then.
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I'm actually Plonkett on FimFiction, we've talked to each other.
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Because she's a poorly designed OC with a Mary Sue syndrome.
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You're mistaking a Woobie for a Mary Sue.
Mary Sue is when a character can do no wrong and has no flaws, and thus no true character arc with growth.
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She's a woobie, it's true. However, the two are not mutually exclusive: a woobie can also be a Mary Sue.
What's symptomatic of Mary Sue-ness about Nyx is how the narrative systematically revolves around portraying her in a good light, regardless of verisimilitude, and at the cost of the other characters authenticity.
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Yeah, see you can't actually say that Nyx is portrayed in such a way because you haven't read the story. It's simply not true. She's got plenty of flaws and struggles.Β She has a legitimate character arc which takes the entire length of the story to fulfill. I'm not sure what you were expecting if you weren't willing to read the story.
Basically your assertion is factually incorrect. You need to either read the story for yourself or get your facts from a reliable source.
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Or maybe I'd just find it as pointless, boring, and unsubtle as I'm making it out to be, which would just be a waste of my time.
Really, it doesn't sound like we'll be able to agree on something, seeing how we seem to be at an impasse regarding this character.
Really, deep down, I should let you enjoy what you like. If you love this character, then so be it.
My apologies for all the ranting.
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Well, as I said clearly, I give a FAIR assessment. I look at both the qualities and the problems of anyone's writing. Nyx was a fantastic character written poorly. That's as concise as I can say it. You really can't argue the point because all of the issues with this story can be attributed to poor writing style rather than poor characterization. Nyx, as a character, is immensely fascinating. I've devoted over three years of my life to developing her adult adventures, in my own massive project, where I mature her quite a bit. I'm not insecure about my views on this character in the slightest. And I don't mind if other people are uninterested -- but they should be uninterested for VALID reasons. So far, I have yet to see you present any.
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Hmm, my gripes with the character may indeed be attributable to the poor writing, indeed. However, it can be hard to judge whether a character is bad because it's portrayed wrongly, or if said character is simply terrible... But that's another debate.
However, I don't think your opinion can be deemed as fair, considering how much you seem to love this character, having dedicated so much of your time and energy to fleshing her out on your own. Your opinion could easily be deemed wholly biased by your personal investment and interest toward Nyx.
As a reminder, my big problem with Nyx is that she's a character made only (or, at the very least, mostly) to be pitied. All other elements of her character seem to be secondary. And that, for me, is a fatal flaw.
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I know this is old by now but... honestly? This was my problem with Snowdrop as well :/ except Snowdrop's ever worse.
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At least, you didn't have people claim in droves that she was a deep character with a fascinating psyche, powerful drama, and a engaging backstory. Everyone knew from the start that Snowdrop was meant to be a tear-jerker, and no one pretended otherwise. In my book, that's better than Nyx being praised to infinity and beyond for dubious and highly subjective reasons.
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Actually.... if I may? (I can never overlook a good opportunity for analysis and review) *Shuffles papers* It's 2:55 in the morning but whatever;
I read "Past Sins" a few years ago. At the time I was still very deep in the MLP G4 fandom and was only really starting to gain attention as a pony-artist. (achieved a very small modicum of attention as a pony artist later, for what it's worth) More importantly, however, (and I swear this is not me singing my own praises for no reason, it's important for context) I am a professional animator and analysing story and character is both a passion and strength of mine. So, having heard much about this story in particular, I decided to read it.
This was several years ago, so my memory is not crystal clear, but perhaps that's also good as to be objective. I must have liked the story well enough as I did draw a rather long fanart picture of Nyx in all her various forms in the story. So obviously I could not have hated it at the time, but this was 4 years ago. Reading my comments on the picture, it seems my main reason for even drawing the large piece was actually because I was having a very hard time visualising the character in the fic, and kept picturing her as Luna and the art was an attempt to hammer in the visuals for me a little better (probably not a good sign tbh) However I did mention it was memorable in "a good way"
Fast forward 4 years to now and really, all I remember about the fic and the character is that it was an above-average fanfic in terms of what we think of most stereotypically as a "a fanfic". I had read absolutely terrible MLP fanfics and this was not one of them. However, having read REALLY GOOD fanfics since then, it most certainly is not one of those either.
Someone already gave you a plot breakdown so I see no reason to do so. So I'll just talk about the fic as a whole. I feel it was a really honest attempt at telling a story that the author wanted to tell. Not so much an attempt to "glorify an OC" but to have had an idea for a plot and wanting to write it. So it DOES have that going for it. However, it's amateur is very obvious. The author wants to explore the idea of "What if what made Nightmare Moon formed its own lifeform and it was a baby and was taught what love is and managed to become good". A perfectly fine idea to start with. The author then tried their very very best to make Nyx likeable as a filly. Because it was important for the author that we like Nyx, so that by the time she becomes evil, we want her to be saved. Again, this is all well and good and a good way to approach any story of this nature.
The problem lies, again, with the author's experience. In their attempt to make Nyx as a child likeable, they leaned her too far into the realm of being rather saccharine. Nyx is "a sweet girl", but in a way that feels tailor made for us to like her. She's a lot like the CMC in season 1 in terms of personality. (which may be unintentionally deliberate as the fic was written around season 1 or 2). As a further attempt to get the audience to like Nyx, the author then does their best to integrate them into the show's canon setting in a way fanfics often fall trap to (and the way the new Star Wars movies seem to be written) that is, by using the recogniseable from the canon of the show to create fanservice. Nyx doesn't have a cutie mark, so she joins the CMC! She's got a black coat and glasses, so Diamond Tiara bullies her! etc etc. Really, it's a rather ham-fisted way of fast-forwarding all the nitty gritty of getting Nyx integrated into the show's canon so the plot can start instead. As such, characters warm up to Nyx a LITTLE too easily. And Twilight's magic to conceal Nyx's creepy eyes is a LITTLE too convenient. Sadly, the small little nudges to get the plot going add up, and eventually it does feel like Nyx has not earned her way into the character's lives realistically. But it HAD to happen for the plot to be able to give her a redemption arc.
Again, I can see how the gears are working here, but due to inexperience, the author struggles to fit them together. They do a good enough job to be enjoyable if you're along for the ride (as in you are ready from the start to buy emotionally into the synopsis of this plot before you even begin reading), but if you're looking for a well crafted story this is not what you are given.
The things you pointed out to the person's plot synopsis as not making sense are, again, not so much done BADLY as they are done without experience in terms of plot. The author needs a reason for Nyx to, first of all be in the woods in the first place, and second, to turn to evil near the climax. So the cult is created as a plot device more than they are as self-actualised characters or logic. They are merely a gear to move the plot of Nyx's redemption forward. I can sympathise, as the villain in my own MLP fic I wrote were all pretty much just plot-devices to help me focus on character interaction instead, the thing I actually wanted to focus on. So same thing here. In all honesty, it may have been a better move to not have them at all. As they also rob Nyx of autonomy. She doesn't turn evil because she has an inner conflict. She turns evil because THE CULT TOLD HER SHE WAS EVIL! Again, I can see the gears that make the machine move here, but the experience to make them run smoothly isn't there.
As for Twilight, we have similar problems here. Twilight decides to take Nyx in and I honestly cannot remember if there is a logical reason as to why. And since nobody seems to have suggested one, I can only imagine there IS no logical reason apart from "It's a small scared filly and it makes me want to protect her." I believe Twilight DOES express concern at first, but caves a little too quickly simply because Nyx is a cute filly. And Twilight decides to "monitor" her until she can decide what to do... and then gets attached. Again it makes sense on paper, but as you pointed out, it DOES feel at odds with her canon character and happens more because the plot needs it to than anything else. I remember very clearly that when I read the fic, I was willing to buy Twilight feeling protective of a small scared child and unsure what to do but feeling uncomfortable with handing her to Celestia, but the story COMPLETELY lost me at the point where Twilight is running frantically to save Nyx from something and came to the revelation that "She is my child! I am her mother and she is my daughter! This is how I feel about her!" and I remember thinking quite clearly "Woah! That's a little much, isn't it? I get you love this little girl, Twilight, but isn't that WAY too strong way too quickly?" Even at the time the whole thing felt like artifice to me.
I also had problems with Nyx turning to Nightmare Moon. Again, as I mentioned, a lot of Nyx's autonomy is taken away from her regarding this. the Cult awakens her evil-ness, and when she turns evil, she kinda sorta forgets her time as Nyx or like sees it as a different life or like feels that it was never really her at all or something? I can't remember. But it does that thing of "this character isn't really to blame for the bad things she does! She was tricked! She's actually a good girl, really!" and I remember that bugging me a lot because, as I said, character development and inner workings is my favourite focus. And here it felt like Nyx had her personality re-written to be evil because "she was Nightmare Moon" and not for any solid story reason. I remember being very frustrated by this.
Anyway, I think it says a lot that I can't quite remember who the main bad guy ends up being (because of course there is one) as well as exactly how Nightmare Moon defeated Celestia and Luna. However, there is a moment where Nyx decides she is Nyx and not Nightmare Moon. She gets very badly injured during a fight, then faces the big bad guy (which earns her her cutie mark of being a protector) she fights the big bad guy and nearly dies. Twilight cries about it but they do the whole "we can save her but only just!" and she becomes small child Nyx again.
I've said it several times but the story's problem is one that I don't think is as big a sin as the typical Mary-Sue fanfic. If you called Nyx a Mary Sue herself I could not argue with that at all. However, I honestly don't think the story was written with the same intent a Mary-Sue fic is written. Despite Nyx being the main character and focus and plot, she is not written in a way... say.... My Immortal was written (as the prime example). The story is not a fake construct only there to sing her praises. Rather, she's an OP OC who the author obviously really likes, but the intent behind the story was, first and foremost, to tell a story. It comes across as the author having an idea and a story they wanted to write, rather than having a character they wanted to "prove" was an amazing, perfect, incredible, best character ever. So in that way, I feel the reason so many people are able to enjoy the story and by extension Nyx, because at least the fic is honest in its intention.
People have told you that the fic is "written badly" but the character is good. But I don't think it's as easily separated as that. The problem is the plotting of the story and Nyx's development as a character, which is the HEART of the story, does not have the level of skill needed to pull off this type of story completely. The story IS Nyx's character development, and although it does its very best to follow the arcs and falls of a story, it trips over hurdles fanfics (and even the canon show itself) often do. The inability to let Nyx be responsible for her bad actions for fear it'd make her unlikeable. The extreme desire for us to like her early on so the redemption arc can work later but lacking the skills to do so in a way that does not make Nyx overly cute and innocent. Having characters (not all of them, but a good many of them) accept her too easily, even though they do express concerns, they eventually still like her in the end.
In conclusion; I don't think you would enjoy reading this fic, so I can't recommend it to you. Not because you're closed minded or anything, but because unless you come into the fic already willing to like it, the fic does not have the necessary skills to win you over. However, as it is an honest attempt at writing a story rather than a glorification of an OC, it's easy to see why people end up liking it. It gives the OC experience without the self-centered narcissism most OC stories have to them. Which is where this whole argument on this picture's root lies:
The fic is not bad enough to be "a bad Mary Sue My Immortal fanfic" but it is not good enough to be "I hated OCs until I read this story and it changed my mind!"
Objectively, it is merely passable. And that is why in an argument of opinions from opposite sides, no-one is going to be able to convince the other of anything. Because the fic itself does not actually line up with either argument's level of passion. It's merely "ok."
It's 3:45am I'm going to bed holy crap. *Posts without proof-reading*
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X'D I'm reading through the discussion, yeah.
As having read the actual fanfic? Yeah. It's just a typical fanfic with an OP main character we're meant to feel sorry for but wins in the end. Pretty average fare. Harmless, but you're honestly not missing anything.
I'm enjoying your responses here btw. I feel you're making your point very well.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it!
And thanks for sharing your input on your fanfic too, it's interesting and refreshing to see an opinion other than "No you're wrong and you're a dirty naysayer and your opinion has no weight." I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, but when I can take the time, I'll read through your detailed review!
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It's rather easy to tell the difference between a well thought-out character and good writing. Writing skills are something which can be measured in a technical sense. There were many flaws in Pen's prose which can be listed out. None of this has to do with Nyx as a character. Allow me to separate this for you.
Imagine the idea of someone attempting a spell to bring Nightmare Moon back so she can usurp the royal sisters and rule Equestria, only for something to go wrong with that spell and it ends up creating a child instead, with no memories of being Nightmare Moon. Next, imagine this child is found, lost in the forest and adopted by Twilight, raised to be a good person. All the while, Twilight is concerned about her being discovered as Nightmare Moon recreated in her own body apart from Luna. She goes to school and makes friends just like any other child, but with the subtle knowledge that something is wrong with her. Then, during a school play where she is playing the part of Nightmare Moon in a recreation of the MLP pilot episode, she has flashbacks and actually begins remembering things. She is frightened about these memories and Twilight offers comfort all the while being deadly concerned that this filly could very well become Nightmare Moon all over again. What should she do? Should she tell Celestia or keep it a secret?
Then, the cult which performed the spell in the first place tricks Celestia into taking Nyx to perform a "test" on her. This test ends up transforming her into an adult Nightmare Moon, where all her memories are restored and she is coerced by the cult to actually take over Equestria. She banishes the royal sisters for two weeks and brings about eternal night, causing untold suffering across Equestria. But something does not sit well with Nightmare Moon. She is missing something. She is missing joy and love which she once knew in a shadowy memory. Over several chapters of struggle, she decides to forsake her position as queen of Equestria and restore the rightful rulers of the land. She submits herself to their judgement, promising that as long as she lives, she will be the defender of ponykind.
Now, stripped of all the poor writing (which recall you have not read) can you see how this character is a bit more interesting than you had anticipated? You believe that Nyx is created as a character to be pitied. This is highly inaccurate and we don't see this in the story's presentation at all. Your assertion is factually incorrect. The so-called fatal flaw does not exist.
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Really, what you have described hasn't changed my opinion one bit. Much the opposite.
- Where is this cult even coming from? We've never had any indication that Nightmare Moon had agents of any sort in Equestria. In fact, she was obviously entirely forgotten.
- Why would Twilight house that unknown filly, particularly knowing that she's a reincarnation of Nightmare Moon? Twilight has always been portrayed has logical, responsible, and dedicated. Canonically, she has no reason to take it upon herself to raise a filly she's found in the middle of the woods, particularly when it's such a dangerous individual.
- For that matter, why didn't she tell Celestia anything about it? Again, canonically, Twilight has always been hugely devoted to Celestia, to a nigh-fanatical extent. Why didn't she say anything to her mentor and idol about it?
- Why did Twilight let Nyx play the part of Nightmare Moon, knowing what she knows about her? It just sounds irresponsible and needlessly risky.
- Again, who is even this cult? How did they even manage to trick Celestia? Why did she let herself be tricked? I mean, I know that canonically, Celestia is portrayed as criminally aloof, but still.
- Nightmare Moon Reborn banishes the royal sisters just like that? And the Mane 6 do nothing against her for two weeks, despite having the Elements of Harmony?
And finally, this conclusion just reeks of a bad OC: super-powerful OC comes in, befriends canon characters, becomes bad, proceeds to whoop everybody's butts, then is redeemed and is good again. Can't you see it's almost a caricature of a bad OC-centric fanfic? It adds arbitrary elements to canon just for the sake of the plot, portrays the characters like aloof idiots (again, just for the sake of the plot), and is wholly about said OC.
Really, it just sounds like a very bad MLP finale, with a blatant disregard for the integrity of canon characters and for verisimilitude, all for the sake of the OC.
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Good grief, man. The answers to ALL of these questions are right there in the story (which you have not bothered to read). I just gave you the synopsis. I did not give you a comprehensive breakdown of the entire plot and all its nuances. The fact remains that YOU CANNOT COMPLAIN about a story which you have not read and do not possess all the facts on! You cannot validly do this without making yourself look like a fool.
I've tried to teach you this basic principle, but you simply refuse to listen. I'm done wasting my time with you.
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You say that, but you are still not giving counter-arguments. And really, I can't see how any story elements could justify such inconsistencies and plot magic.
I can complain about the story based on what I know about it. It may not be the most valid opinion, but it's still an opinion. And considering having a more enlightened opinion would require reading that story, I'll stick to my guns, thank you.
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Simply put, everything is made to have her come out as the tragic, misunderstood victim. Any character who is shown to be mean or distrustful toward her is portrayed as wholly wrong, and at the end of the story, everyone loves her and adores her. There's no depth to her character or to her story, and no suspense at all. It's just one big all parade about her and how bad she has it and how cute she is and how everyone should love her.
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From my understanding a Mary Sue is a character that is absolutely perfect and can do no wrong. Don't take offence but you've just proven that you haven't read the story fully, perhaps not at all and are then making assumptions to berate her character. I don't believe tragedy has any relation to Mary Sues even if it is a common occurance, under that definition there are a whole lot more characters one could accuse.
Twilight was very much distrustful of Nyx herself, I don't think she was wrong. And yes Celestia was pretty awful to Nyx but she had her reasons, some very just reasons too. I also wouldn't consider Diamond Tiara "wrong" as that's part of her character, unless you're reading it after she became nice and are upset she is being portrayed the way she had been for years.
Speaking of which, Diamond Tiara was forgiven quite easily in FiM. Something I'm not going to accept entirely until she apologizes for what she did to Scootaloo. So from that logic, Diamond Tiara is a Mary Sue because she had a tragic reason for being mean and was forgiven easily. Many other characters do this in FiM. Not to trigger anyone but Starlight Glimmer has that going for her, hence to why most of the fandom isn't happy with her either. And many that hate EqG will then make the comparison to Sunset Shimmer dispite the fact that only Twilight's friends accepted her and everyone else hated her.
Back to Nyx, at the end of the story many ponies still outright hate and distrust Nyx to the point where Luna had to interview everyone in Ponyville to think of a rightful punishment. With Celestia having to address it and lie to Equestria about her true punishment.
This is even expanded upon in its sequel Winter Bells in which the story involves characters finding out about Nyx's true punishment and wanting to expose her for it, even Shining Armor, her own family outright hates Nyx.
I could also address the parade part (which didn't happen) but I'm going to assume that is just a metaphorical parade and not just a baseless accusation.
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Arguably, my knowledge of the story is only based on firsthand sources, aka friends who have read the story while I haventβfriends whose opinion I consider solid and trustworthy.
Regarding your tangent, yes, obviously, Diamond Tiara and Starlight Glimmer's redemptions have been portrayed horrendously, Starlight's in particular. Diamond Tiara is guilty too, but since she's a much less important character, this isn't as blatant. I wouldn't call them Mary Sues, however (though Starlight definitely has Mary Sue traits); they're just instances of the plot and characters bending over backwards to suit whatever the writers want to happen. Sunset Shimmer's redemption was portrayed much more gracefully, Rainbow Rocks being the saving grace of the otherwise tasteless and meaningless Equestria Girls franchise.
And yes, the parade was metaphorical.
Ultimately, I'm sure there's plenty of arguments against Nyx being a Mary Sue, but in the end, one cannot deny that she's a hollow Woobie character whose whole raison d'Γͺtre is to attract the reader's pity.
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Well, the PREMISE is that she's a woobie character. And then, the story takes place. If you read it, you'd be aware of this. She doesn't STAY a woobie character, you know.
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Hello, Recon-777, long time no see
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Been having great fun writing, on chapter 19 now
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So, from what I can gather from this seemingly new term, Scootaloo, Snowdrop and Spike count as Woobies or have woobie traits. I fail to understand the hollow part. And no offence but this whole woobie thing sounds like something, someone made up to irrationally hate something or to give themselves a 'reason' to hate something'. Many works, many of which are highly praised and not critized for this "woobie" behavior aren't hated for grabbing the reader's pity.
What am I really meant to say? Congrats, you made the audience feel and be touched from something. Now that's a bad thing? I guess we should just remove emotion from all media. You can see how that's a bad idea. Many of the people that will use these terms only use them to make themselves appear intellectually superior and fool stupid people into taking their word for it. It's the whole "flat earth" thing all over again. Yes you have a point but open that box and there's many, many more counter arguments that make the point you just made invalid in the grander scheme of things.
All it is, is dressing your falling apart argument in duct tape and a few pretty things.
If we really did take these seriously, all of our media would be awful, stories wouldn't work. Dynamics wouldn't work. How am I meant to hate a character because she did something right?
It is harmful! And if you look at the places that use these values seriously you realise just how much it can back fire when you have a culture taking them religiously. Look at /mlp/ for instance. It's buzzword central full of circlejerkers that claim to hate hugboxs and yet have swung on the other side of the pendulum into a hatebox that gets immensely upset when someone tries to be rational. And that's what these are. Just another buzzword. So with all that said, you will have to forgive me for not taking them seriously.
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Scootaloo's Woobiness is usually toned down in that it's not the only focus of her character. Most of the time, she's shown as dynamic, proactive, and the writers don't feel the need to pull the whole "Oh no, she can't fly, so sad!" shtick. However, she is sometimes portrayed as such, which can become downright cringeworthy.
And yes, Snowdrop is the epitome of the Woobie. She's just that poor, vulnerable little thing you have no choice but to feel bad for. As for Spike, the least said, the better: Spike had its moments, but the more the show went on, the more he became more of a bother and a source of embarrassment than anything.
As for putting emotion in a media, there's "pulling at the heartstrings of the audience" and "selling a sob story." If done well, it feels natural and you feel bad about the character as a natural process of empathy, not because it's shoved down your throat. If done poorly, it's ham-fisted, clichΓ©, trite, meaningless, and all you have is, well, a Woobie.
I don't really know where you're trying to go with the whole flat earth theory & /mlp/ tangent. Are you saying I'm wrong because I'm assimilable to these groups, for no other reason than because you said so?
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Just that I hate people that have to be told to hate something as opposed to making their own opinion.
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