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JackDenim17 — If we could change each other
Published: 2013-06-24 22:30:05 +0000 UTC; Views: 338; Favourites: 6; Downloads: 0
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Got into an argument with my mother this morning. She and my father have both said that if they could, they WOULD make me be a Christian, which is just terrible. I criticized her for this, and she said "Well, if you had a magic button what would you do to me?" as if she expected that I would want to remove her Christianity.Related content
Comments: 39
Thank you 
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This very beautiful but sadly true as well. I was brainwashed since I was very young and I was raised an extremist Christian. Now, that I don't really have a religion (although I can identify with some things in Hinduism, Satanism and Wicca), I try to convince people to check the background of their beliefs.
A code of morality is, in my opinion, necessary but a religion isn't. Religion is only dividing us in groups that try to kill each other to prove who's imaginary friend is better.
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How would define 'extremist' here? My parents are horrible about religion, but certainly not extremists, but of course there are extremist Christians and those extremist Christians have kids, so...
I know what you mean about identifying with other religions. I agree with a massive portion of Buddhism--The Four Noble Truths and The Eightfold Path are pretty much perfect to me, and can be worked through without keeping any supernatural element in mind. The only thing which bugs me (I've found at least one in every religion I've studied, save Wicca) is Karma--the idea that we deserve the good and bad that we get, even for actions in a past life. I don't like the idea that people who are starving or ill or suffering from birth defects or any other misfortune brought it on themselves, but the fact is that a belief in Karma, while it has unfortunate implications, only has the practical effect of making people try to improve themselves, and I find other aspects of Buddhism very truthful without unfortunate implications.
My moral code is very simple, and very common among irreligious people--If something would not hurt or risk hurting a reasonable person, then that thing is not wrong. (As my brother pointed out, the law often refers to the thoughts and actions of a "reasonable" person, and it seems to be the only way to make most laws of morality, so why not?) A reasonable person wouldn't be "hurt" in that way by losing a job interview, so it's not wrong to win an interview. A reasonable person would be very upset if you, say, murdered them, so that of course is wrong.
I believe that morality is like science, mathematics, and logic--an absolute truth has always existed, we just haven't known as much for our entire existence as a race. Slavery is and has always been wrong. It was not okay in the the past in any countries which no longer practice it, and it is not okay in the countries which practice it today. Nearly anybody who disapproves of slavery would agree with me, right? So, if slavery was morally wrong since times when a majority of cultures practiced slavery, then it is a moral absolute, and moral absolutes exist.
This is much more evidence in the field of science--Newton wasn't born until the seventeenth century. Did gravity come into existence when he named it? Did Aristarchus cause the earth to revolve around the sun? We have little trouble reasoning that these facts were true long before we noticed, and that moral wrongs once deemed acceptable have always been wrong. I believe that the best explanation is that morality is like a science--over time, we try and fail and improve our values as a whole. I'm terrified of the idea that there might be some kind of group that we're all discriminating against, but which modern society believes is being judged for immoral actions. It's an irrational fear, but it's certainly possible.
Ouch, this was long... I'm sorry 
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Extremist in my case meaning that I did nothing at all except what was said in the bible, I believed women were inferior to men, believed I will go to hell if I don't die a virgin or whatever and dedicated every breathing moment of those years to praying, spending most of my day in a church. I never talked back, even if that now got me traumatised. I should've taken acation long ago but I was terrified god will be upset.
Anyway, the idea of doing whatever you want if it hurts no one can also be found in Wicca, known as the Wiccan Rede (As long as it hurts no one, do as thy will)
I agree that morals are a lot like since but they also imply a bit of sentiment. We feel something is wrong when we, for example, feel pity for a victim. We know something is right when we feel content about a situation. Things are good when we wish they happened to us too and wrong when we fear they will or when we're glad they won't. If you ask me, religion can brainwash everything, even tricking people into believing slavery is good (the idea that a woman has to quitely obey her man, for example, is a form of modern slavery).
All in all, I'm fascinated by religions, I'm not entirely sure why but maybe I'm trying to find a starting point. Other times, I just like to pick up a religion and point out all the mistakes, hoping that one day, I might find one that has no gaps in it, although I'm pretty sure they all do. People know me as a satanist but in truth, I'm not a complete satanism, I'm somehow molding my own beliefs, my own religion, therefore, my own moral code.
Something that's been lately bugging me is love. I'm in love and it feels great, he's very supportive and I really need that but if we look at other animals, they don't need love. They just breed and that's it. Let's not mention how many tragedies have happened because of love and how many of us would give the world for our lover. I like this emotion but as much as I dislike to admit it, I'm starting to think it's some sort of "bug" in our lives, something not meant to be by mother Gaya, something we created, just like weapons, cars and blocks. I'd appreciate your opinion over this subject. Thank you.
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That certainly is worse than my parents, but I do personally know families like that. I know one kid who is horribly brainwashed... Women < Men, his parents punish him and his sister with a literal rod which cuts the skin (he's okay with this, by the way), and he never talks back. (I'm sure that if he's ever done it, he was immediately punished and convinced himself that his parents are right, as always.)
I know about the rule of Rede. I read a book about Wicca when one of my friends told me she was one 
I read about satanism for a school club, but I honestly don't remember much. I know that the stigma is undeserved, of course, but other than that I'm blanking. All I can really recall right now is that (I think) individuality and free will are central to it, just as Satan's resistance to God is representative of free will. If I got something wrong, please excuse me... I have a long list of religions to study and I find it difficult to keep track of all the information.
As for love, it might be fair to call it unnatural, but that's not a bad thing. Our species has risen above evolution in many ways. If our bodies had their way, we'd have no problem doing every person of the opposite sex (and only of the opposite sex) from the moment we became fertile till pregnancy or sterility. Our intelligence allows us to understand--to make long-term goals, to have free time. In nature, life is survival, but the developed world has gotten to a point where food is only a small part of what we do. When we realized that we only need to use a small part of our time to survive, we found other ways to use our time--planning for the distant future, building relationships, art. I think that our friendships and love are simply a byproduct of free time :3
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That's an intresting way of looking at love.. Thanks for the tip
As for satanism, although ther are more kinds of satanism, you prtty much summed up the core. Satanism is about thinking for yourself. It's about learning and teaching, even if that means striking back, since it does not promote the idea of turning the other cheeck and so on. It is also said to be the original religion of man kind. I'm prsonally doubting this between satanism and wicca. It's sad, though, how defied satanism is since xtianity appeared. Let's not forget that xtianity is made of some books twisted and interpreted and let's not forget that they left out all the books pro-women. To be honest, I don't understand how sexism appeard. Before this anti-women religions, everyone was smart enough to realise that men and women are equal. As long as both of them are needed for the existance of the specie, they are both important. Men are phisically stronger but women carry out pregnancies and deliver babies, which was proven to be stronger than any pain a man could ever survive. All in all, I hate this world. It's never really been on the right track and it speeds up to destruction :/
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I don't believe that societal sexism was caused by sexism, but it was probably prolonged. Think of it this way: in less evolved species, animals which are stronger generally become dominant, right? Now, we didn't go from some kind of ape to fully evolved humans all at once. At some point, barely evolved humans did exist. Now, how might they have determined dominance within their society? What Xianity and other kinds of specific theism usually do is take values that already exist and attribute them to their god or gods. So, if the society still clings to the stronger > weaker/men > women ideal when your religion comes along, your god is probably going to say "Men > Women." So my point is that religion usually doesn't create moral badness, but at worst serves as a time capsule. Gay people were not well off in the first century A.D. when Paul wrote that they would go to hell. Society has gotten past that point, but the ideal transcends millennia because the value stuck around because it was attributed to a god.
I realize that childbirth is extremely painful, but I don't see how that could be proven, since we haven't yet totally figured out an objective way to measure pain. (I'm very interested in how pain works, so I've done a little reading on this.) Also, from my understanding, there is no known "maximum" pain. I suppose I could be wrong, though...
I know that there are lots of problems in the world, but hating it is just another way of allowing all of the problems to thrive. The fact is, it's amazing that this was allowed to exist, even though it is temporary. Just as a person's life matters even though they are going to die, our existence as a species matters even though we will someday stop existing, and we need to try to make the most of that.
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Each animal, therefore mankind as well, determined dominance by stronger>weaker by comparing themselves to other animals, not to their (fe)male partner.
As for pain, it is measured in dols (or dalls, I forgot which one was in english). The delivery pain was tested on 2 dutch men that bearly took it and had to stop before the maximum. I could send you the link but it's in dutch.
As for me, although it makes me sad, I've realised that there is at least as much bad as there is good, if not even more. Wherever I look, I see pain and missery, ignorance, sorrow, regret, complains etc. I'm trying to enjoy myself but how can that be when this world stomps on you like on an insect? How can it be when right and wrong are no longer a matter of personal opinion but labels attributed by society now and long ago?
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It is a nice sentiment. Myself, if I had the power, I would erase religion in a heartbeat.
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Okay, to be honest, I do think that the world would be a significantly better place without religion, but I wouldn't just brainwash people into believing what I believe, even if what they believe is totally insane.
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To forcedly change somebody's beliefs goes against pretty much every belief I hold- but one must ask, if we had the power to magically make religiosity go away, would it not be ethical to make it happen?
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I say it depends on at least these two things:
1. How provable is the thing I'm convincing them of?
2. How harmful is their delusion capable of being, and what are the odds it will reach its full potential?
While I can say that there's just not enough reason to believe or point out flaws, I can hardly claim to be able to prove that any given religion is false...
Religion is not inherently harmful, so making everyone irreligious would probably be wrong...
But let's say I had a button that would make everybody believe in global climate change. It's factual and their misconception could majorly hasten the extinction of every thoroughly evolved species, so pressing it would be a-ok.
I think that those two guidelines are good because it prevents people who agree with it from believing that it would be acceptable to make everybody agree with them on everything. I prefer small government to large, but I wouldn't push a magical button to make everyone agree with me because if everyone agreed with me, there would be no arguments and no development. Also, I can only justify it if I believe that all of my opinions are infallible, and that doesn't work...
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We can't prove it, more than we can prove just about anything, but we can draw some solid correlations between massed scales of abuse and organized religion. We can point to a solid lack of evidence as a heavy indicator of its falsity. I don't think there is a big difference between global warming and atheism within the context of this discussion- global warming is factual, evidenced, but atheism too has the facts on its side. There is a difference, but it is slight.
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Okay, let me put it this way--if you don't believe in human-enhanced climate change, you are almost certainly hurting the planet more than the average person. Not believing in it helps nobody except for those who hurt others with their ignorance.
Religion can be a way of life, positive or negative. It's something people use. It can make people happier and better overall. It often doesn't, either making no difference or worsening them by convincing them of a horrible code of values, but you get the idea.
Basically, religion is a form of expression, a way of living, and a thing people can choose to use for good or evil.
Basically, there are three main outcomes that can come from a person's choice to be religious--improvement, worsening, or no change. Choosing to be wasteful and not restrict carbon emissions cannot lead to enlightenment or greater spiritual contentment; it can only fulfill greedy and slothful desires.
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Anti-warming lunacies are indeed harmful on a large scale- but in so many ways, religion is too. Harm doesn't have to be dramatic, like a suicide bombing- just things like religious mentality causing psychological distress in the form of shame for perfectly natural human urges is harmful, and it happens on a massive scale. They're not exactly the same, but both examples cause large scale harm while thinking they are justified, right. Religion can be positive, but we don't need it to be happy or fulfilled- religion can make you happy, but it makes you vulnerable to a lot of very silly or even dangerous things as well.
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Hm, I don't think I'm making myself clear, so I'm going to start over from the beginning.
People can benefit from religion without hurting other people (or themselves).
People cannot benefit from a lack of belief in climate change without hurting other people.
I agree that religion causes more harm than good, but I feel that as long as people have the ability to benefit from it, even if those problems CAN be solved without it, it would be wrong to brainwash it away...
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Well, the hypotehtical scenario I proposed wasn't about brainwashing- it was that if we had a way of magically making religion go away, shouldn't we?
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My point is that pushing such a button would inherently be brainwashing, and unless harm is the only reasonable outcome of the belief you want to change, that's probably not okay. A persnon choosing to be religious has several possible outcomes, and not all of them are bad.
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The question, then, is if the bad does not outweigh the good enough?
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I'm not sure if the bad outweighing the good is always justification... ultimately, a significant part of what you'd be doing is killing off something harmless which makes people happy. (Not calling religion as a whole harmless, just the specific views of people who are religious harmlessly.)
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It could be argued, couldn't it, that the benefits of doing away with the negatives outweigh the positives so significantly that it doesn't matter?
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Ah, morality is hard T_T
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But very intriguing.
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T-T The world is a scary place
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I love the structure on this - the two columns, and two opposite points of view, make the poem extremely thought provoking and dynamic. I wasn't exactly sure how to read it at first (left column first, right column first, line by line?) but once I sorted that out the structure only enhanced the poem for me.
It's interesting that you used "obedient" at the end of the right column. Obedient doesn't necessarily mean happy.
I think that if one of my parents had said that to me I would have let them have it...that really sucks. I hope everything gets better. ):
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I intended this to be Left line/right line all the way down, nbut either way is fine I guess. Ideally, you'd have two people reading them at the same time, but that of course doesn't work in writing.
I wish I knew how to do this format on text!!! I had to submit it to a random thing which allows visuals. Sigh...
I think that I would probably be a lot happier if I believed everything religiously that my parents do. No parental angst, an artificial sense of happiness and affirmation twice a week, no belief in science other than what I want to believe...
Siiigh. I have a friend who has it much worse (the one with Disassociative Identity Disorder, incidentally); her mom took away all means of contact with her friends because she made a Facebook. (My friend is fourteen; her mother was rampantly insistent that she not have a Facebook until... I think she said fifteen.) Her mother was also upset that a girl in our circle is attracted to girls
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Two people rereading at the same time, I didn't even think of that! I think you can use HTML code to do that, but I have no idea how...I never learned anything more than bold and italics.That makes sense...but would you continue to be happy once you left home? I have a couple friends who are completely happy as Christians in a very strict Christian household, but I worry about them because they've never been exposed to anything outside of their environment. I don't know, I just think it's better to be well rounded.
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I know people who have a very strange view of the the real world as a result of only interacting with church and private/home school. You're either a nice sober straight patriotic nearly-flawless Christian, or an evil drunk Al-Qaeda-worshiping homo-queer drug addict atheist.
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Yeah, I know a couple of those people too...they scare me.
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The scary thing is that I know it's not really their fault, not yet... if you're a 13-14 year old with that level of brainwashing, what exactly are you supposed to do?
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This is really powerful, actually. I'm normally not a fan of words edited onto something, like this, but I'm really glad I clicked it.
I could see why the editing was almost necessary, for the formatting, and I actually quite enjoyed it! It's heartbreaking, because many teens/kids/even adults can relate to their parents being like this.
I hope you hang in there, you are fine no matter what religion you choose or choose not to believe.
Thank you for the wonderful poetry! x
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Thank you so much
This week my parents have been forcing me to help out with Vacation Bible School at their church (which I attend at least once a week) and I was very annoyed on the first day, and when I'm annoyed or angry I somehow write a lot better. When I try to write about religion when I'm in a good mood it always turns out bad
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Oh! It's not a problem--it looks lovely, anyway (:
I'm sorry to hear that \: It's one thing to be tolerant--I go to church with my parents for I'm more Agnostic than anything, and I'm pretty tolerant--but they shouldn't be forcing you, if you don't enjoy it. It's not a good thing.
But I understand! It seems to be easier for me to write when angry or upset, as well. I get you (:
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I literally wrote the entire thing in the back seat on the way to VBS while my mom talked to her friend (about me, right in front of me... uhm...) Also, when I write while upset I hardly need to edit usually...
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