HOME | DD

krillan In reply to hadj [2004-02-25 02:00:21 +0000 UTC]

Salam bother,
Not trying to spread any animosity but....Where does it say that a human being cannot be holy? Was not Rasool Allah (saw) holy? By using the word holy we do not mean divine like the Christians describe Prophet Isa (as), but we mean "holy- devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity. i.e. . Prophet Mohammad (saw) was in all ways holy and we can see this in many hadith from both sides of the shia/sunni spectrum.
I'm assuming you're sunni so i will give you some evidence from your own sources
al-Manaqib Ahmad, as mentioned in:
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62
Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, who quotes the tradition as follows: "We were with the Holy Prophet when Ali came towards us. The Holy Prophet said: He and his Shia will aquire salvation on the day of judgment."

We know that those of the household of the prophet (Ahlulbayt) i.e. Lady Fatima(as), Imam Ali(as) and their children were all infallible people just as the prophet himself was. I am not claiming in any way shape or form that the family of the Prophet were at the level of being Prophets but they were in their own level, the level of Imamat.
Lets look at the Quran. The term " ahl-al-bayt" (people of the house) has been repeated twice in the Holy Quran:

1. "... the mercy of Allah and his blessing are on you, O people of the house, ... (11:73)"

This verse refers to the people of the House of Ibrahim (s) (c.f. "Kashf al-Asrar wa `Uddat al-Abrar", 416/4 and other interpretations).

2. "... Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you a thorough purifying (33:33)"

This verse, known as the "Tathir verse", refers to the Members of the Household of the Holy Prophet (saw). The Imamiyyah scholars of hadith and fiqh, as well as some Sunni `Ulama, consider the "ahl-al-bayt" cited in the "tathir verse" to include exclusively Muhammad, `Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, and Husayn (peace be upon them all). They do not consider the Holy Prophet's other offspring, wives, sons of paternal uncles, and dwellers of his house as the Messenger's "ahl-al-bayt".
This is connected to a tradition narrated in both Shia and sunni books called Hadith Al-Kisa

Jalaluddin `Abdul-Rahman bin Abi Bakr Suyuti (d 911 A.H.) in his commentary " Al-Dur al-Manthur", 198/5-199, Muhammad ibn `Isa Tirmidhi (3 279 A.H.) the author of "Jami' Sahih", Hakim Nishaburi (d 405 A.H.) in "Al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn", Ahmad ibn Husayn Bayhaqi (d 458 A.H.) in "Sunan" (all three of whom have considered the Kisa' tradition as authentic), Muhammad ibn Jarir Tabari (d 315 A.H.), Ibn Munzir Muhammad ibn Ibrahim (d 319 A.H.), Ibn Mardawayh Isfahani, and Ahmad ibn Musa (d 410 A.H.) have quoted Ummu Salamah, the wife of the Holy Prophet (s) as saying that the verse "... Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you a thorough purifying (33:33)" was revealed in her house. At that time, `Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, and Husayn (peace be upon them all) were in her house. The Holy Prophet (saw) spread his cloak over them and stated: "These are the members of my Household, and Allah has purified them of all (sins and faults and uncleanness)."
I hope you aren't under the impression that Shia's are just following the house of the Prophet Mohammad(saw) because we hold them higher than the Prophet(saw) or that we worship them in some form. We are all Moslems and we are all part of the same Ummah. I hope my response wasn't too lengthy but you must understand that I feel an obligation to defend my position. The more knowledge we attain the closer to Allah(swt) we will get.
Masalam

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

hadj In reply to krillan [2004-02-25 09:18:48 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much for you explaination. However I know this verse the quran that states something like this: Say: O (Muhammed) I'm merly a human just like you.

And of course the Shia of the time of Muhhamed (Saw) were truly muslims. No doubt about that. Still most Shia's are truly muslims.

Second of all. It's know that Ahl-Bayt has some privileges. Like in the verse that stated something like this: O women of Muhammed, you're not like every woman.

I agree on most point you mentioned. But you haven't give my any hadith that stated that Ali (ruh) was holy? Truly all Prophets are holy but where can i read that Ali too is holy. Further too recieve blessings from God (TA) doesn't mean you're upgraded to holiness. I can mention a dozen verses where God himself says that every good being recieves blessings. So does that make everyone holy? I don't think so.

Your response is very detailled and accurate to the contrary of mine. However if you do like some exact verses. Just send me some notes.

Jazakum Kharein

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

krillan In reply to hadj [2004-02-25 18:59:15 +0000 UTC]

When I use the word "holy" I am not signifying that Imam Ali(as) was worthy of worship but simply because he was 100% completely devoted to Allah(swt) and that Allah(swt) made Ahlulbayt INFALLIBLE. Not even the best scholar and believer can ever be infallible no matter how hard they try. In this respect one would say that this is a sign of our "humaness." But this is wrong assumption, because even the Prophet(saw) and his Ahlulbayt were human and we can see this from the fact that they bleed, and die just like any other human being. We say that Imam Ali(as) and the other members of Ahlulbayt are holy because Allah(swt) had endowed them with such special characteristics which made them perfect role models for the Ummah just like the Prophet(saw) was. You could also look at the fact that we believe that the Ka'ba is holy, right?
But you would never say that you and I worship the Ka'ba which is made of stone, because if we did it would make us no less Mushrik than those that waged war against our Holy Prophet(saw).
Therefore you and I both believe that the Ka'ba is a holy place because it is special to Allah(swt).
Allah(swt) had such a love for Imam Ali(as) he made it so for him to be the only person born inside of the Holy Ka'ba.
Hakim in his Mustadrak and Nuru'd-din Bin Sabbagh Maliki in his Fusulu'l- Muhimma, Fasl I, p.14, say: "No one before Ali was born in the Ka'ba. This was a distinction given to Ali in order to enhance his honor, rank, and dignity."

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

hadj In reply to krillan [2004-02-25 20:30:00 +0000 UTC]

I agree. Still my attitude to our beloved Prophet and Ali is the same. Because Ahl Bait is more then Ali and the Prophet. As in Islam we give women eqeal rights. So the women in Ahl Bait are holy too? If so, then i agree on your defintion of holiness.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

krillan In reply to hadj [2004-02-26 02:31:32 +0000 UTC]

Of course the women of Ahlulbayt i.e. Fatimah and Zainab were just as holy as the men. Im glad we cleared up the confusion. This kind of discussion is halal.

Masalam

👍: 0 ⏩: 0