Comments: 84
PHOBlA [2016-01-30 21:40:03 +0000 UTC]
is my demon character Mary Sue?
Name: Shiraki Ryoba
Gender: Female
Strengths: Telekinesis and Teleporting
Flaws: Thinks too fast
Style of outfit: shorts and a hoodie
Hair: Simply brownΒ
Extras: She can be classified as a kuudere due to the fact that she doesn't love anyone.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to PHOBlA [2016-03-17 04:16:44 +0000 UTC]
god this thing is so old
im amazed it still gets reads
it depends on the context of the world youre placing them in. if the setting and all the sympathetic characters are visibly cleaving to her every whim, thats a sue and should be dealt with using a fine writing hand. otherwise you should be fine
π: 0 β©: 1
Neoguest [2016-01-16 18:07:23 +0000 UTC]
I remember reading a tumblr about Rey from Star Wars; The Force awaken is a Mary Sue and I was like what?Β I wonder if people are just call character a "Mary Sue" because they don't like them.
π: 0 β©: 0
Girl-Time-2015 [2015-05-19 18:34:41 +0000 UTC]
Jenna Silverblade, Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Ravenway, Bella Swan are all Mary Sues. And it's bad for other people who actually spend time developing their OCs. If you really want to create a good OC, balance talents with legit flaws. Design the OC to fit the universe as seen in canon.
For example, in a modern Tintin AU I made back in middle school, My OC would not have magical powers or better sailing skills than Captain Haddock or being smarter than Tintin. She had her own skillset that reflected the rules of the canon Tintin. She would not be wearing Gothic clothing, or sit idly by or crawl up in a fetal position when her true love leaves her. In fact her motivation was to save her friend from an injustice. She had a regular name, Kendra Barker, and her flaws included being too naive and trusting of others, which often caused villains to abuse her trust.
You wrote a better and more thought out rant than some little girl who ranted about how a Tumblr page called her Hetalia OCs shitty (I took the time to look at her OCs-that Tumblr page had every right to call them shitty).
π: 0 β©: 0
LunaAngel-Eclipse [2014-12-27 22:21:38 +0000 UTC]
What upsets me is when an OC strolls into a universe like say Legend of Zelda or something and then all the people the fans know and love/hate are bent way out of shape and heavily OOC. Romance is fine but if some kind of Prince of Darkness and Killing and general hate of people takes one look at a girl and for no real reason goes Ga Ga about her and tries to marry her right then and there, there may be some problems with the writing.
Where do you stand with Reader inserts? Like, when things get a bit upside down and not exactly how they are meant to be?
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to LunaAngel-Eclipse [2014-12-28 03:37:06 +0000 UTC]
Self-inserts are okay as long as you don't do any of what you just described. Which, unfortunately, tends to happen more often than not, but still.
π: 0 β©: 1
LunaAngel-Eclipse In reply to MsAmiClassified [2015-01-01 04:21:46 +0000 UTC]
Yes, but i HAVE seen it done fabulously, can't remember off the top of my head, but i know they were good...
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to LunaAngel-Eclipse [2015-01-01 20:42:52 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, I know. It's been a while since I've read a lot of fanfic with that premise (I tend to pick and choose from premises that aren't that), so I can't give any specific fics, but I know I've seen them around here somewhere...
π: 0 β©: 1
LunaAngel-Eclipse In reply to MsAmiClassified [2015-01-02 03:43:07 +0000 UTC]
Well, I hope a wave of amazing fanfics will come about, what with the new year and all!
π: 0 β©: 0
Kirbunny431 [2013-01-21 14:23:14 +0000 UTC]
Top-quality rant, my friend. Very well written and you argued your point quite nicely. 10/10, would read again.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to sonikkuruzu [2013-01-12 17:26:49 +0000 UTC]
As in a Possession Sue or a literal Canon Sue? And I'm not familiar with Doctor Who, so what makes you say that?
π: 0 β©: 0
YagamiYoshi [2013-01-05 22:25:54 +0000 UTC]
A Mary Sue can have all or none of the sueish traits out there, but what really makes her a sue is how the other characters react to her and seem to revolve around her no matter what. The rest are just symptoms. Well said.
π: 0 β©: 1
YagamiYoshi In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-08 01:36:56 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, though it's more than just black hole sues, I'd say it's the quintessential Mary Sue traits. Suefics often also have other problems, but the biggest issue is how all the other characters react, because a lot of these premises could be played well, the issue is that they're not.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to YagamiYoshi [2013-01-08 03:40:45 +0000 UTC]
Well yeah, I know that, I'm just pointing out the specific form you were referring to earlier.
π: 0 β©: 1
GlassMouse89 [2013-01-05 11:39:36 +0000 UTC]
This got me to dig up and slightly modify an earlier Mary Sue rant of mine. You might be interested in reading it, so I'm just gonna leave it here
Hmm. While I agree that the Mary Sue word has been overused to the point of uselessness, the actual concept is still useful. I would propose a renaming.
In the age of TV tropes, the 'net tends to analyse and categorize stories based on superficial identifiers (like having wings, prettiness, country of origin, etc.).
But the really useful analyses focus on story roles. What we call Mary Sues is basically the Black Hole Character. The character who draws the entire world closer in order to support their story. Too many things revolve around them, the plot bends towards them (for good and bad), the other characters spend a disproportionate amount of energy on them. Pretty much, things turn unbelievable in the interest of supporting the "Mary Sue"s story.
It's always subjective in that sense. People have different standards for their suspension of disbelief - maybe they're "in" on the fantasy, maybe they just don't consider it, maybe it jibes with their own experiences. But generally, the volume of "Mary Sue!" criers can be taken as an indicator of how much Black Hole your character is (I think most people use that word when they can't articulate the above problem).
So it's not about whether or not they have wings, it's about how the plot and the setting respond to them. That's nearly impossible to make into a test.
Let's talk about Black Hole Characters instead. It's more accurate and less fraught with superficial identifiers.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to GlassMouse89 [2013-01-05 17:24:22 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, that's a pretty accurate definition of Mary Sue. Generally they also tend to break the laws of the verse just because they're awesome like that, but yeah, Black Hole Sue.
π: 0 β©: 0
useraccount [2013-01-05 02:39:07 +0000 UTC]
I don't personally find Mary-Sues all that annoying. My personal pet peeves are Darkness Induced Audience Apathy and Shooting the Shaggy Dog. (and particularly bitter varieties of Bittersweet Ending). If I'm going to take the time to read your story, I don't want to say to myself "Well, that was pointless." or spend the rest of the day in a depressed funk because life sucks and we'll all die.
And you rarely find the extreme Sue you describe in your rant (unless, of course, it's a parody). And if an author actually writes "OMGWTFUDARECRITCIZEMAIPRESHOUSMARYSUEUMUSTDIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111" 99 times out of 100, they're trolling you. Call me an optimist, but people are rarely that stupid without it being completely intentional.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to useraccount [2013-01-05 06:27:30 +0000 UTC]
I tend to stay away from anything that looks like it might be Sue-infected, and yeah, I hate that other stuff too. And as far as that second part goes, I was exaggerating, of course no one is that much of an idiot under normal circumstances ._.
π: 0 β©: 0
MsAmiClassified [2013-01-05 00:30:50 +0000 UTC]
Edits have been made. Now the rant contains an example on Anti-Sues, a new paragraph about Mary Sues being static, and some quick clarity about male Sues.
π: 0 β©: 0
Raven913 [2013-01-04 22:36:30 +0000 UTC]
I've always found Sues irritating because of the complete lack of conflict in their story. If they're so perfect, they can pretty much solve anything instantly, leaving nothing open for the genuine suspense which makes good stories fun. There's no resolution if the problem isn't an actual problem. Some Sue authors do seem to realize this, but instead of retooling their characters into actual people with a balanced personality and level of power, they simply hand them the Idiot Ball and have them forget their powers until oh, they just remembered they could do x right when x was necessary. This is one of the reasons I dislike Superman, who despite being a canon character in his associated works, fills many of the traits of a Sue: he is loved by most of the populace, he is portrayed as a hero with very few flaws and only one notable weakness, and he can do pretty much anything, which downgrades the suspense when he is challenged. You just know he's going to pull some new power out of his hat that will solve all the problems. It's too shiny-happy. I don't argue for gloom-and-doom endings in everything, but I do argue for characters having to go through suffering and development, and preferably some gaining of necessary skills, before they can get a happy ending. This also happens to the "anti" Sue with no good traits at all; you would think that they couldn't possibly win, and yet they do for highly dubious and improbably reasons, which break suspension of disbelief and turn the story into an exercise in ridiculousness. Alternately, everything goes the character's way because of other characters acting on the character's behalf as well as the universe bending to suit their petty needs; this is one of the reasons I hate Bella, from the Twilight series, because she never does anything herself and instead just has things work out her way because everyone falls unreasonably in love with her despite her blatant lack of a personality, and the author goes out of her way to make sure everything works out all shiny-happy-rainbows.
The way Sues relate to the world also downgrades the suspense in any mystery of who the villain is going to be. Anyone portrayed hating the Sue is a villain, and often for no other reasons. This also downgrades the effectiveness of the villain as the villain; many Sue characters go up against "villains" whose only sin is simply not liking them. This is especially prevalent in stories where a canon characters love interest must Die For Our Ship in order to let the Sue get with them, although there the canon love interest is often derailed into a catty Green Eyed Monster, with the author ignoring that the Sue stealing their significant other may give them full justification for such jealous behavior.
So, not only are Sues annoying for reasons such as everyone liking them with no justification, or being more important to the story, they are annoying because their "perfection" (either perfectly good or perfectly crappy) actively sabotages their author's attempt to use them to tell an awesome story.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to Raven913 [2013-01-05 01:48:03 +0000 UTC]
I am in total agreement. Can't say I hate any of the characters you brought up, though, since I don't really follow them at all.
π: 0 β©: 1
Raven913 In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-05 06:56:51 +0000 UTC]
Fair enough. I'll admit most of my experience of Superman is from the movies, and even then only a few of them. As for Twilight, well, I threw that book across the room at Chapter 14.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to Raven913 [2013-01-05 17:19:07 +0000 UTC]
A Wall Banger?! Ok, not a good sign
π: 0 β©: 1
Raven913 In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-05 19:21:28 +0000 UTC]
Yup. Sexism towards both genders, Canon Relationship Anti-Sue, Canon Gary Stu, Purple Prose and sparkling vampires. The tipping point was when the main character said that she was flattered that the love interest was stalking her.
I think Twilight is the only book I have ever actually violently flung away. Most bad books I have simply put down with disgust.
π: 0 β©: 2
Reaper-sama13 In reply to Raven913 [2014-05-16 03:54:12 +0000 UTC]
and good for you infact i nearly burnt my copy of the first book chanting forget.
π: 0 β©: 0
MsAmiClassified In reply to Raven913 [2013-01-05 19:23:57 +0000 UTC]
O_______________________O
*steps away quietly*
π: 0 β©: 1
Raven913 In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-05 19:26:30 +0000 UTC]
I should probably stop ranting about stuff I don't like now.
Anyway, good Mary-Sue rant. I enjoy reading such things; it's good to find sane people here on the Internet.
π: 0 β©: 1
DarkSnarkArtie89 [2013-01-04 19:12:15 +0000 UTC]
I agree with *LoorTheDarkElf , most Sues are usually fairly static, almost stereotypical characters...
But I think your rant really does some up about the Mary-Sue issue... Of course, I personally believe that there's more that can be elaborated on about Sues.
For instance, the idea of a Sue isn't just limited to the female characters, male characters can be quite guilty of being Sue-ish as well. However, it almost seems that the internet acts that male Sue characters can't exist, even though there's characters out there who I can't stand reading or watching because they're so over-powered and static.
Likewise, the Sue doesn't have to be "super attractive" either. A Sue can be an overweight slob and still be likeable and loved by all of the characters in a work.
I also tend to think that weak settings also contribute to increasing the Sue levels, as well as many misconceptions about canon.
π: 0 β©: 1
DarkSnarkArtie89 In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-04 21:29:57 +0000 UTC]
Well, a weak setting can create some very bad "loopholes" that can get abused by the characters. This can result in a lot of traits and actions that can open themselves up to Sue-ish even if they aren't meant to be...
For example, let's say I have a character who's a bounty hunter of sorts and works with the local government to catch crooks for a living. We have an idea of who are character is and what she does, but where? Is it a wild west setting, in which a woman as a bounty hunter is rather odd and thus seemingly Sue-ish? Or is it a space setting where anyone can be a bounty hunter? Well then I'd have to tell you that she is in space... But then that asks what kind of "space" is this? Does our character go between space colonies and planets or does she invade space pirate ships? Why do you have a bounty hunter in space for? What's the economy like?
As you can see, leaving a setting to abstract leaves too much to the imagination in which people question way too much. I mean you don't have to give an elaborate history and economy, but not providing some kind of backbone for your setting can create a big problem. It also leaves too much room for nonsense.
It's really difficult for me to explain without writing an essay on it... =/
Anyway, for the earlier points, I'd agree with you. I know I got the gender stuff mixed up, but I'm just too used to people throwing the Sue term on practically every female character out there.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to DarkSnarkArtie89 [2013-01-05 00:30:56 +0000 UTC]
...Yeah, you're right, I still don't get it ._. But as for the other stuff, yeah, I added it in. A brief mention on the gender thing, the example on Anti-Sues added in, and a new paragraph on Mary being static.
π: 0 β©: 1
sweetsugariness [2013-01-04 18:37:35 +0000 UTC]
*claps* it needed to be said
π: 0 β©: 1
LoorTheDarkElf [2013-01-04 17:54:20 +0000 UTC]
Good rant, but there is one more vital piece to the Mary Sue that you touched on but I feel needs to be mentioned directly; the complete lack of a story arc. They go through the story as a static character; experiencing everything but learning nothing about themselves or others. Not only does this make a Sue, it makes for a boring and unrelatable character who is downright painful to read.
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to LoorTheDarkElf [2013-01-04 20:54:23 +0000 UTC]
Hmm...point taken. I thought I was missing something, maybe I should throw that in.
π: 0 β©: 0
SwerveStar [2013-01-04 17:16:26 +0000 UTC]
Hmmm... Perhaps I've been using the term Mary Sue a bit loosely, but I have a sort of feeling a character I know may count regardless. The characteristics in question that the character has are...
-Becomes immortal from a non-canon source, using a source that appears to be made of readily available materials.
-Can actively kill -ANYONE- in a story where killing is generally prevented, and can actively control and shorten people's lifespans. There's already a canon character who can "control death", soooo...
-Fracking demands attention and doesn't tolerate when other people are more powerful than her-Her creator ALSO demands attention, and doesn't tolerate any characters being more powerful than hers.
-The character apparently has cameras set up all over the world and has an impenetrable security system in her mansion in a world where technology is too limited for that to be possible.
I think that's basically it, but would you say that counts as a Mary Sue or just an overpowered attention whore?
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to SwerveStar [2013-01-04 20:52:55 +0000 UTC]
As far as most of these points go, yeah, she's a Sue, the points in question break the laws of the verse (lookin' at you, two and five). The first one depends on if immortality is typical for her circumstances but judging by the second it probably isn't, and the third is a character flaw which is fine if she has enough strengths to balance it out, only the strengths need their own counterbalances too. If either flaws or strengths overwhelm each other she's a Sue. And four just screams Creator's Pet.
π: 0 β©: 1
SwerveStar In reply to MsAmiClassified [2013-01-04 21:16:47 +0000 UTC]
It's one of those cases where she insists that even though they share a name she insists it's not an author avatar. As for her character, she's just some rich, spoiled human. If memory serves, her bestest buddy just happened upon a potion that grants immortality. There ARE immortals in the series they're from, but they're either immortal due to some rules of the world (For example, Fairies infinitely respawn, but are weaklings) or they were granted immortality as a plot point. She just seems to be immortal for the sake of power.
...Yet for some reason, even with this sue of a character, she's got plotlines that aren't half bad...
π: 0 β©: 1
MsAmiClassified In reply to SwerveStar [2013-01-05 00:23:44 +0000 UTC]
...Yeah, she's a Sue. Still, if you think she has good plotlines then she has good plotlines. It's your opinion.
π: 0 β©: 0
Reye-chan [2012-12-30 20:01:18 +0000 UTC]
Loved this rant~ A direct, straight-forward definition of the archetypal Mary Sue.
However, if you wanna read up on other, more "defined" types, tvtropes has articles about how Mary can invade every genre here => [link] !
π: 0 β©: 1
| Next =>