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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-25 20:52:56 +0000 UTC]

may i ask how you say it is homicide? 
also, why is it ok for abortion in cases of rape, incest etc but not other cases?

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-26 01:32:52 +0000 UTC]

In some states in the US, it's a double homicide because two lives are being taken via murder.

More often than not, the reasoning for women getting abortions baffles me. The most common reason is because the woman has consensual, non-incestuous, and non-lifethreatening sex, (more often than not unprotected!) and she decides soon after that she's not ready for a baby.

And when abortions are performed, they're most commonly performed at a point when the fetus is able to feel pain.

Not to mention, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome, where the would-be mother's mental health effectively, to put it bluntly, goes to Hell in a handbasket.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-26 01:52:49 +0000 UTC]

but how is it murder? murder is the deliberate killing of a human. how is it murdering a human if it's not a human to begin with?

you could use statistics against your own reasoning here, when you say that "the most common reason women get abortions is because she has consensual sex and decides she isn't ready for a baby" by saying that a lot of women don't have post abortion stress syndrome either. 

why is it our business what the woman does anyway? its her life. her choice. why does she have to have that right taken away to abort? it's her personal decision, why must her privacy be invaded? 

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Grey-Terminal In reply to spitesyre [2019-04-21 20:50:21 +0000 UTC]

I agree. It is not my Business what other women do.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-26 03:16:18 +0000 UTC]

Well, the fetus isn't exactly a chicken, is it? If you're also gonna pull up the "clump of cells" argument, bear in mind two things.

1. A clump of cells in a female's womb (or egg, for non-mammals) is technically called a zygote, and there aren't really many records of zygotes being aborted; to my knowledge. That's why I say "fetus".
2. It could just as easily be argued that all living things are clumps of cells. Huge clumps, but I digress.

I've seen a lot of pro-life women out there who have actually aborted, but suffer from Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. (PASS, for short). They don't want other women to suffer, like they've suffered. Why do you think abortion hotlines exist?

The woman's choice to abort doesn't just affect her. It can affect her, her family, her doctor, her significant other, her friends, everyone who cares about her; from the reason for it, to how she got pregnant, even ranging to her likeliness for PASS. It's not as private a thing as you may think.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-26 03:39:55 +0000 UTC]

no, i wasnt going to bring up the clump of cells argument. in fact i dont think its a very good excuse to be honest and i mentioned this on a stamp here somewhere earlier. and nobody said anything about chickens either. just you. im pretty sure abortion hotlines exist for the same reason any other hotline exists... for crises. doesnt mean everyone who aborts is going to have a crisis because of it though. and those who don't shouldn't have to be oppressed imo. at least to a certain extent.

what if the women dont have friends, family, a loving partner. not everyone has those things. a lot of these women who abort do not, live in poverty and cant afford raising a child or can provide it a good life. and it is private if its her personal life. yes people may be a part of it but those people are those close to her, not strangers like you and me theoretically. 

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-26 04:21:54 +0000 UTC]

The clump of cells argument is where you and I can agree. When I made the comment on, "Oh, it's not exactly a chicken is it?", I meant that "It's a human fetus, what else would it be?" I know not all women who abort are going to suffer from PASS, but it's not something that should be ignored; like the vast majority of pro-lifers ignore. (Yourself excluded. I'm glad you're deliberately acknowledging my points on that.)

If a woman doesn't have a loving partner, how do we know it was her choice to have sex? We don't. If a woman's living in poverty, how do we know if she can afford a trip to the hospital? We don't. And it can affect the life and mental health of the doctor as well, depending on the technique used to abort. Your choices rarely affect just yourself.

I'm not saying to get rid of abortion completely, I just feel it's wrong for women to get an abortion when

• She had unprotected, non-incestuous, consensual sex
• The fetus can feel pain
• Her pregnancy isn't going to end her life
• She's avoiding taking responsibility for her own choices
• She could suffer from PASS

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-26 06:03:03 +0000 UTC]

ok... with that all said you and i pretty much have the same view points at least on most of this
im not saying its ok for abortion to be allowed at any given time during pregnancy
but i think if a woman was practicing contraceptive methods and still ended up pregnant, she shouldn't have to be forced into an unwanted pregnancy. isnt that fair?
also if a doctor knows very well that they will experience something like pass because of their own choice to perform abortion procedures or specialize in that medical field, i dont think that should be necessarily blamed on the woman for wanting an abortion. why pick a job and go to college for something you don't feel comfortable doing to begin with and then blame it on your patients...
adoption is not always the better choice over abortion in my opinion. a lot of children grow up as orphans and never get that loving home. they spend all their childhood in public systems and we all know how great that is. they are made to believe they are unwanted and that they arent good enough to deserve a family and be loved. i think that is way more painful than what a fetus could potentially feel at 20 weeks (i may be wrong but i did read somewhere that if the abort takes place during that time the fetus is given amnesia to keep it from feeling anything) versus a lifetime of struggle, suffering and hurt. is that really the better thing to do?

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-27 01:50:56 +0000 UTC]

Cut myself off in the middle of my reply. I hate my phone sometimes. 

I agree, it shouldn't be prohibited entirely, but I still stand firm that avoidance of responsibility should not be considered a valid enough reason to get something as serious as an abortion. It's like with other things as well, like other forms of medicare. And it's another thing we agree on, that abortion is NOT a form of birth control. I'm glad we can be civil on a topic like this.

What I was gonna say, before my phone cut me off, was that I don't think it's worth the permanency of a decision like abortion, to avoid the risk of life being bad. I have been known to take a chance every now and again, and that's my perspective of it. If there's even a chance of good from something bad, why eliminate the bad along with the good? You see what I'm saying. (Had a tough day at work, so I apologize if that doesn't make much sense. )

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-27 16:37:03 +0000 UTC]

Hey it's ok, it happens sometimes. I was thinking something must have happened to your message because it did look cut off to me as well.

I agree with you on that. I just think the women who are responsible or have other serious personal life issues should not have to be forced into an unwanted pregnancy all because neglectful women exist. That's unfair to me. That's like saying families living in severe poverty and really need help with getting food shouldn't be allowed access to food assistance programs because people abuse the system.

I do see your point (and sorry about the tough day at work). It is a 50/50 chance on how the potential life of the child turns out, yes. I still think that something like abortion is a personal decision since the woman is going to be the one having to bear the pregnancy, and taking away her choice doesn't seem like a solution to me. Again, I do think abortion is not ok after a certain time frame in the pregnancy. Terminating an embryo and calling it murder is not very fair to me either. A fetus that clearly looks like a human, is human, on the other hand is different though.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-27 20:52:03 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for understanding.

And it seems that for the most part, we agree on this subject, and I'm happy we can be civil on the points we disagree on. It's refreshing to have a different point of view be shown, without being belittled for being different. I appreciate that about this discussion.

And yeah, the abortion would be the woman's choice, but every choice does have a consequence. Some of them, the woman isn't prepared for in the least. I believe that unless the woman has seriously thought through every consequence of abortion, she shouldn't have one. Some women do think it through completely, others don't, and I can admit that. Personally, I think that PASS might stem from a woman deciding to get an abortion without completely thinking it through.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-28 00:38:27 +0000 UTC]

thank you as well and i second that. most people get nasty very quick over these kinds of things and its just not needed nor is it mature.

i do agree that every choice has a consequence. not only are you responsible for what you do, you are also responsible what you don't do. PASS is a real issue that i can agree exists and i also feel that abortion should be the very last option if necessary. likewise in some cases, i feel that abortion would be the more reasonable decision depending on the situation. say, a very young girl gets pregnant before she is even old enough to get a job and raise a child. should she and her body be put through a pregnancy? i dont think so. i dont think pregnancy should be treated as a punishment - its supposed to be a time when a mother bonds with her baby and wanting to create something beautiful. but is a child barely into puberty ready to take on being a mother? i dont think that is plausible. yes, she should have been educated better but again sometimes owning up to responsibility doesn't necessarily mean taking on a task such as momentous as pregnancy and raising a kid - what an adult is more suitable for. along with an adult body at that. yeah the girl could go through with adoption but there are also cases where parents regret adoption and giving away the baby. no, abortion isn't much better but i feel in some situations such as that, it just would be more sensible.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-28 01:03:16 +0000 UTC]

It really isn't.

When I say that rape is one of the times where abortion is okay, I include statutory rape. Not that it's to be abused, because that's just insanely cruel, but I digress. And what you described does sound like statutory rape. And plus, if the girl is young enough, she may not even live through childbirth. And I get what you're saying with abortion and adoption, too. I just feel like it could go either way, but adoption does have something over abortion; you can see your child again, at least on Earth. But I do agree, it's really touch and go what you do, or don't do.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-28 19:53:59 +0000 UTC]

You make a fair point. I think if the woman wants to put her child into adoption, that's fine. I also think if the circumstances are reasonable enough, just like with adoption, that abortion is ok too. She should be allowed to have both of those options opened to decide upon. Completely banning abortion wouldn't solve anything more than banning adoption would imo. Neither are ideal really - all children should be with their biological parents and have that sense of close family with them - but as we all know, it's far from a perfect world the one we reside therewith. The only thing you can do sometimes is do what you can with what you're given. It may not always be the best case scenario, but all anyone can do is try.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-29 05:03:07 +0000 UTC]

At the end of the day, what else can you do? And to me, it's all worth the effort. And even if a child can't be with their biological family, they deserve to have a family that loves them. 

I'm glad we can reach a mutual respect for one another's point of views, despite our disagreements here and there. Ain't much more to be said on this topic, I don't think. 

Anyhow, have a nice day!

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-26 15:06:09 +0000 UTC]

That first point is why I've been stressing the word "unprotected". If a woman has taken every measure within her power, and they all fail, I just hope she aborts a zygote rather than a fetus.
There have been records of abortion doctors actually quitting their profession. They feel comfortable with it as first, but as time went on, they felt less and less comfortable; soon becoming pro-life themselves.
Adoption isn't perfect, no one said it is. But it's actually more likely for a baby or a small child to be adopted, than an older child or a teenager. If you eliminate the possibility of the bad, you also eliminate the possibility of the good.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-26 18:48:13 +0000 UTC]

sometimes women can't get to an abortion clinic before their embryo has developed into a fetus. but i do agree that the sooner the better. and again, a doctor's feelings on their own practice shouldn't be to blame on the patient. it was their choice to choose that medical study and exercise it. those women did not force them to. that's like saying it's a patient's fault a nurse develops a fear for death by working at a cancer center.

that's what i mean, and those older children/teenagers grow up broken, with psychological issues due to getting the bad hand of cards dealt to them and a lot of them even wish they had never been born to begin with and/or become suicidal, develop bad habits and so on. if the woman had been given the option to abort then that could be prevented. why should more broken, suffering children be added to the world? yes it also means the theoretical possibility of them not growing up that way is eliminated, but it's just more likely for them to have a bad life than a good one when being thrown into an orphanage is how i see it.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-27 00:35:19 +0000 UTC]

I just looked it up, and thankfully, the embryo doesn't become a fetus at week 20. It's 9-12 weeks. Thank goodness. An abortion doctor choosing to be one, then regretting it, no one really blames the patient. If a woman gets pregnant, then regrets it, more often than not, the unborn baby gets

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-27 01:18:48 +0000 UTC]

in the end, i just think abortion should be allowed to a certain degree. do i think it should be ok for a nine month pregnant woman decide to abort just days away from her due date? of course not. but i think if it's still in the embryo stages or beforehand, then it should be available as an option. i dont think abortion should be treated as a contraceptive method, and i am aware that there are unresponsible women who do get pregnant. but like with anything, there are going to be people who need something seriously for very valid reasons and there are going to be people who abuse that same thing. like with government assistance and such. you arent going to get a perfect world where only responsible and honest people live. for this reason i dont think the ability to abort should be completely prohibited.

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sarahkitten42 In reply to spitesyre [2019-01-27 01:51:24 +0000 UTC]

Aaaaaaaand I replied to the wrong comment.

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spitesyre In reply to sarahkitten42 [2019-01-27 16:39:35 +0000 UTC]

I do that too

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Myn-Anthony In reply to ZekeEugene [2018-02-16 10:28:10 +0000 UTC]

I really respect that. That's very humble and mature way of thinking. ^-^

I know I used to get super offended and angry in these matters when I was younger, so I totally understand. Thankfully I've matured and grown up more in the past few years. lol ^-^ It's not always easy seeing the other person's perspective, but the more we learn about why people have different beliefs than we do, the easier to understand their side and reach a more civil discussion.

So yeah, thank you too. ^-^

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ZekeEugene In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-16 10:29:30 +0000 UTC]

Thanks.

Well, at least you improved.

You're welcome.

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Myn-Anthony In reply to ZekeEugene [2018-02-18 21:53:16 +0000 UTC]

Ok, I've skimmed through your posts. I respect all the thought you've put into it, and the fact that you definitely seem to be going by what you truly believe is right. ^-^

I did find one thing pretty interesting. While I'm still somewhat morally opposed to it, I do think if science could find a way to take the embryo out and keep it alive and just as healthy as it would have been in the mother's womb, that would absolutely be preferable to abortion. But... there are still moral issues with it. I applaud you for trying to find a way to keep the mother and child alive and happy though.

I will also say though, that this is the problem with you being aborted: You are the only you that has ever or will ever exist. You are a unique human person, and while there are others who accomplish similar things to what you could accomplish, human value is not based on one's accomplishments. Every person has the intrinsic value of being a unique human being. Human life is sacred no matter what the person says, does or becomes. It would have been tragic if you were aborted because there is no one who can truly replace everything that makes you you.

(And that's not even going into the soul. But then, whether you believe in the soul or not, the argument is similar. The main difference is that the soul is eternal, and therefore the biological person it becomes must be respected and cared for, because life is what transforms the soul by the time of death into an immortal being of good or of evil.)

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ZekeEugene In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-18 22:32:14 +0000 UTC]

"I applaud you for trying to find a way to keep the mother and child alive and happy though."

Yes, exactly. My point is that, in the case of the abortion debate, compromise is the solution.

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ZekeEugene In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-18 22:14:55 +0000 UTC]

Fair enough.

"I will also say though, that this is the problem with you being aborted: You are the only you that has ever or will ever exist. You are a unique human person, and while there are others who accomplish similar things to what you could accomplish, human value is not based on one's accomplishments. Every person has the intrinsic value of being a unique human being. Human life is sacred no matter what the person says, does or becomes. It would have been tragic if you were aborted because there is no one who can truly replace everything that makes you you."

I am NOT solely referring to accomplishments. I am referring to people in general.

And I am NOT implying that "human value is based on one's accomplishments".

I am merely pointing out that there are PLENTY of people that have similar positive personality traits, positive skills, positive abilities, intelligence, and positive ideologies as other people, so therefore everything a person thought of, believed in, created, accomplished, experienced would have inevitably been done anyways, and that every personality trait would have been a part of somebody anyways.

Combining that fact with the other two facts that late-term abortion is ONLY allowed in the four types of cases that I described and the fact that early-term fetuses, zygotes, and embryos have NO sentience whatsoever and therefore further prove that one stage does NOT equal the final product, there is literally NO reason that the idea of me being aborted would have been a problem.

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Myn-Anthony In reply to ZekeEugene [2018-02-18 22:27:38 +0000 UTC]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then.

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ZekeEugene In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-18 22:33:47 +0000 UTC]

Okay then.

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Myn-Anthony In reply to ZekeEugene [2018-02-16 10:31:57 +0000 UTC]

Interesting, I'll have to read them at some point.

And yeah, that's the problem with taking YEARS to reply to comments due to being inactive on the site. XD People's opinions can change a lot. lol

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ZekeEugene In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-16 10:33:29 +0000 UTC]

Take your time.

Indeed. I'm a prime example of people changing their opinions, and there are many more prime examples of that very same thing.

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Myn-Anthony In reply to mysteriouskey [2018-02-16 07:50:18 +0000 UTC]

I do disagree, and I don't mind if you don't care. What I will say regardless is that you are wrong. You're generalizing some "pro-lifers" and assuming all of us are like that. This is false. The majority of pro-lifers care about the baby before and after birth, as well as caring for the mother too.

As for death "saving" babies from suffering, what about the joy and happiness life can bring? Why would you assume they'd experience nothing but pain? What gives you the right to choose death for these babies? People tend to be able to find happiness wherever they are, and having difficult lives is just part of the human condition. Not even giving a person a CHOICE in whether they want to take a chance on suffering through life is horrible and wrong. "Pro-choice" ignores the choice of the baby.

And it's fine if you don't care. I replied so that others can read it too.

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Grey-Terminal In reply to Myn-Anthony [2019-04-21 20:54:09 +0000 UTC]

The embryo can not choose, it has no opinion unlike the woman.

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JustThisGuy31 In reply to BoIsNotStinky [2022-11-07 19:53:42 +0000 UTC]

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Myn-Anthony In reply to BoIsNotStinky [2018-02-16 07:32:32 +0000 UTC]

I'm so sorry you feel that way. I hope things get better. <3

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Myn-Anthony In reply to ButterflyLibraGirl [2018-02-16 07:36:37 +0000 UTC]

I disagree on one point. Being created through rape does not make the baby's life any less valid. They did not choose their "father", and should not be punished with death for his horrible crime.

However, in such cases it is extremely important that the mother be taken care of completely as well, including therapy and psychiatry.

That is my moral opinion.

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ButterflyLibraGirl In reply to Myn-Anthony [2018-02-16 08:39:53 +0000 UTC]

I don’t agree with that comment anymore. I’m pro-choice now. Did you not read that comment below?... -_- My point is that if the comment is something political related and it was made before summer 2017, there’s a high chance I don’t agree with or support it anymore.

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