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o-rlyization β BELIIIIIIEVE
Published: 2012-10-11 07:05:30 +0000 UTC; Views: 5790; Favourites: 150; Downloads: 0
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~Res-Gestae and I came to the conclusion that certain archeologists are just horrible people with serious self-entitlement issues.- Liara and Shaw have both put years of their life into the study and research of Protheans/Engineers and understanding their respective 'creators'. YET, when faced with hard, scientific evidence of things contrary to what they know, they don't adapt or admit they could have been wrong--they throw tantrums.
- Liara puts the Protheans on a pedestal and then gets pissed when Javik doesn't have the answers
- Shaw puts the Engineers on a pedestal and then gets pissed when the Engineer won't tell her why they made humans/why they "hate us so much"
- Liara denies the proof that Protheans had a hand in shaping her race and their culture .
- Shaw (and frat boyfriend) refuses to believe that humans could have simply been a fluke/pet project by the Engineers.
- Despite Javik telling her at various points throughout the game what she knows is wrong, Liara still romanticizes what is basically a Roman Empire-like culture that dominated all other life forms it came into contact with.
- When asked how she knew what was down on the planet, before even going down to check it out Shaw says it's what she chooses to believe.
- Both are mad that the Protheans/Engineers didn't help them out more. Also, shared parental abandonment issues? CHECK.
- Both have been hailed as strong, female characters (one of which has been compared to Ellen Ripley). LOL, no. Just, no.
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Comments: 141
Except after coming to terms with Javik and the truth of her people, Liara patches things up and keeps fighting the good fight.Β They even decide to write a book together! Whereas Shaw blindly and stupidly goes off to find the Engineer home world without any backup or ideas of what she'll find out there.
And before you start saying Liara isn't strong, look at everything she does to help the war, interpret Shepard's visions, oppose her crazed mother, save Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker, and help discover the Crucible plans.
I'm not saying Liara's this perfect goddess, nobody in Mass Effect is. But that's one of the things that makes Mass Effect so good, every character has their flaws and strengths.
Not dismissing your points entirely, but there are some big differences between Liara and Shaw.
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You got a point.
It was really annoying how Shaw, the supposed scientist, sputtered her religious phrases through the whole movie.
Also Shaw survived not by badassery like Ripley, but by dumb luck.
But at least the effects were decent
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Ripley was smart. Shaw...... I don't even know but no.
Yeah... the surgery scene was pretty cool, though it made me gag. I liked the star map when David found it, too.
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Goddamnit, Shaw. I thought some people were exaggerating about the stupidity of the general crew in Prometheus; that it wouldn't be that blatant if I watched the movie.
I was wrong.
When the supposed villain took the route to kill the severely infected crewmember outside the airlock in the exact same way Ripley the hero would've killed Kane in the original movie, and we're supposed to be angry at her, I gave up.
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IDK, the Captain was pretty legit and Vickers was ok aside from being a bitch. And David was adorable. My biggest issue was with Shaw, really. Everyone was the usual crew-in-a-horror-movie-stupidity, but Shaw went above and beyond the call.
I KNOW. :I When you start siding with the villain of a story, it should be on purpose or you done fucked up with your main character.
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Vickers at least had a head on her shoulders despite her bitchery. The Captain was alright; I forgot about him when talking about the crew, I was thinking more of all the people who died throughout the whole rising action part (hello, Shaw's boyfriend.) David just made me laugh, but in a good way. "Must. Touch. Everything."
I think what made me feel so "meh" about the whole thing is that it felt like a rehash of Alien, except the crew in Alien was professional for the most part aside from a few mistakes. The crew of Prometheus? A quirky and unstable hot mess. There's something scarier about a threat when it can kill off and disable a more solid crew, but when it comes to the stereotypical horror movie lot... 
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Sadly bitch often means not surviving in a horror movie, so no luck there. :/ You're right,the movie did play into a lot of Hollywood molds... Though that makes me wonder why Shaw survived since she and boyfriend had sex and the couple who has sex in a horror movie ALWAYS dies.
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I love how the one plot twist Prometheus pulls out of its cliches was letting one of the couple who had sex survive, and of course, it's Shaw. Such a fantastic thing for the rest of the universe...
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Welp, we needed some years of waiting to find out, but, Shaw suffered an horrific, horrible, brutal, disgusting death. R.I.P.
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I didn't watch Covenant due to lack of interest, but well then. You do you, Alien franchise.
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Go watch it its better than Prometheus
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That's a really adroit summation. Thank you for codifying something I'd previously noticed mostly as a vague sense of unease.
I liked Tali, personally, although by the end of ME3 I had to feverishly restart from game one as a female because GARRUS.
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LOL No prob. It was somewhat unsettling how these two characters from different series had so much in common.
I could never bring myself to play M!Shep--the voice acting was always just way too bland for me to ever really get into.
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I played M!Shep first, just because I tend to default male. In seriousness, though, I will always do a second, female playthrough on games where it's an option, because even when the game isn't much different (or at ALL different), I still like the way it forces me to think differently. Mass Effect I thought did a good job; being a guy just made me feel like me playing a videogame, so it wasn't much of an experience (though I liked some of the oration), but femShep had me bouncing around on the couch, feeling like a Patented Bad Bitch. She's the one I would say is like Ripley; tough and always able to get the job done, while being utterly unapologetic. She never comes across as masculine to me, but at the same time her feminine side doesn't seem like a sop. I don't know if I'm really qualified to weigh in on gender politics, but that was my opinion. As for Liara, I really liked her in the original Mass Effect, but I found her off-putting in ME2 and downright burdensome in the 3rd one; I avoided her insofar as I was able, and heartily cheated on her with Tali. As it turns out, I only romanced her originally because Ashley makes me breathe fire.
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You're more open than I am, lol. I will make various characters, but only if I think the game has some serious replay value.
That's how I played my FemShep, actually--not quite feminine but she's not butch. I like that aside from mostly LI dialog, it didn't matter what gender you were.
Yeah, I was the same with the exception of already finding her too weird since the start. I feel like she could have been endearing with her nervousness and cute social awkward moments, but Tali fit that better and Liara's being +50 and that naive... yeahno.
I do not care for Ashley. I get she has her reasons for being racist and having the POV she does (I actually like that Bioware has a character like her in since it throws a sense of realism in--because not everyone gets along with everyone) but I got tired of her constant "Are you SURE you want to trust that ALIEN, ma'am?"
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lol, yeah me too. I suppose Liara's oddness just sort of crept up on me slowly, but really there wasn't much to work with in the first game, romantically speaking. Kaiden was, let's face it, unt SMIDGEON involved in his pity party, and Ashley was the relative you always have to apologize for if she drinks in diverse company. Looking back on the game, Liara's "let me into your heeeeeeeeeeeeead" mentality is something I probably should have caught, and I don't like what it says about me that I didn't. o_O
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Dude, agreed. Kaiden was just so... bland and Ashley didn't endear herself to me by being so anti-alien. It just didn't sit well with me, so I ended up taking Garrus and Wrex out A LOT.
(WHUT? BIOTICS? HA! ALL I NEED IS A BATTLEMASTER FOR MY FREAKING SPACE MAGIC.)
Yeeeeeeah... Liara's fixation with my head wasn't really a good ice breaker. At first I thought I just disliked asari (because if they're not being condescending or crazy, they're trying to get into my pants LOL) but I loved Samara (and the officer who had to detain her).
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I also loved Samara, and I'm grateful that the development team opted to give at least some contrast to the idea of Asari as a pseudo-enlightened twenty-first century take on green slave women.
Wrex might be my favorite character in the entire series, if I had to choose. I love Garrus, but if the option to play Climb a Krogan had been given for either Shepgender, I'd have been on that with a haste that can only be called unseemly.
I think the concept of long-lived races is something that all forms of media struggle with, and interactive media even more so. The maiden/mother/crone thing isn't the worst take by any means, but it does create the appearance of a society so fractured I wonder how it would actually function. I keep trying to figure out the laws--what's the age of majority? Certainly not sexual maturity. Are these insane merc women held accountable for their actions later in life? Is it possible that the reason so many young asari women leave their homeworlds is because asari law doesn't consider the actions of asari against non-asari to be consequential?
I HAVE QUESTIONS
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Dude, the Shadow Broker files on her broke my heart. I can only imagine how hard it must have been for her, but I can totally see the Code as her own 'selfish' escape as a way to deal with her daughters' condition. In a way, it'd be her giving up responsibility of feeling bad about it, while also doing something about Morinth.
Wrex was that awesome, gruff, old man. Everyone loves that trope.
Naw, sounds legit man. I like to think the majority lies about mid-maiden to mid/early-matron--with the older asari being a majority closer to their homeworld since maidens are all about getting out and about and exploring. I'm sure with so many becoming mercs quite a few are culled and those that remain might go back to asari space around the time they hit matron stage or maybe after they've found a non-asari partner and then outlived them.
Well, Justicars are limited to asari space to avoid cross diplomatic issues and it seems to be widely accepted that maidens go out and do stupid shit, so maybe it's handwaved as that 'stupid teen stage?' Going back to most asari becoming mercs, I wanna guess that those asari really don't plan on becoming politicians so it doesn't really matter what they do.
Buuuut this is all just speculation.
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Hmm...here's a thought. The immense cross-fertility of the asari means they never need to worry about dying out as a race, and their powerful across-the-board biotics would certainly shift the focus of their religious and cultural leanings toward preservation of the spirit over the flesh. I think it's possible that the asari actually encourage their maidens to range as far as possible, using the dangers of the galaxy to serve as a sort of proving ground, weeding out the destructive elements early while the young asari's parent(s) is likely still alive and able to reproduce again.
Given that the asari society is structured around age, I really think there's at least a de facto tendency to dismiss members of shorter-lived races as less valuable (due to their age), and therefore less consequential under the law.
Now granted, there's a lot of supposition here, but it does raise an interesting possibility: If so, Liara's condescension could quite possibly stem from what she sees as a sort of racial slumming . . . treating Shep to the illustrious secrets of her race.
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I could totally buy that--the article on religion on their wiki page supports it too. LOL I guess it basically sums up to "YOLO, but not really" for the asari.
I dunno. While I can agree that could be a rather popular mindset to 'younger' maidens since asari have a long lifespan and thus more experience, I don't think they'd follow that idea all the time. Living forever doesn't help if you don't go out and do or have any experience. If there are a bunch of asari gardeners and they have to cook dinner, but none of them know how to cook, it doesn't matter if their chef is a salarian or a yahg, they're less likely to question him since they have no experience in the matter.
I never really read Liara as condescending at first--just... awkward and unnerving. In the second game she kinda grew a bit more, but it just made her seem mary-sue-ish in how she'd becoming this stuttering thing to this LOOK AT ME I'M SUCH A BADASS CAN'T EVEN FIGURE OUT MY OWN SECRETARY IS AN ASSASSIN. Three drove the point home since I kept finding crap out without her help despite how much bragging she did about being 'an excellent' Shadow Broker. :/
Females on Surkesh? Huh?
Turian bomb on Tuchanka? Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Shepard?
Quarian are being recalled from their Pilgrimages? Don't know nothing about that.
Cerberus is attacking the Citadel? Pfft, yeah rig--ohshit.
Athame is a Prothean? The art of these hieroglypics are suggestive enough that she totally could have been asar--aw, who am I kidding?
Citadel moved to Earth??? Man, I was -just- about to tell you about that! No, really! I was!
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That's HILARIOUS. You have a knack for pointing out things that I noticed on some level, but never voiced to myself. By the third game the only reason I talked to her was because of the familiarity of having seen her for three games running.
Although it WAS a little fun to hear her get jealous of Tali.
I dunno . . . I think they tried for a female version of an "everyman", but since an everyman character kind of by definition doesn't carry strongly polarizing gender characteristics, trying to add "femininity" to that type of "I'm just like you, the player/ you the player could totally hook up with me" comes off making her...I dunno. It's late and I have no eloquence.
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lol No prob
That was pretty funny, though I couldn't help but notice how creepy it is she knows all about Shepard's sex life (she mentioned your LI after the Shadow Broker mission in ME2, mentions your LI in ME3 if you cheated on her like she's been watching the whole time). Just a BIT unnerving that she's been using her Shadow Broker connections to spy on you like a creepy ex on FB.
She never struck me as an everyman. One, she makes a point of telling how alien she is in 1, Two I've never been an archeologist/information broker, Three She can't decide on a personality (though in 3, stalkerishness aside, she's found a good medium range).
It's not that I haven't tried liking Liara (her and Shepard's moment with the beacon was great and mushy) but she keeps giving me reasons to not like her.
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I rather thought Naive Archaologist in the Big World might be something kind of like Creative Architect Learning Lessons About Life as far as the cockeyed lens through which archetypes inevitably seem to pour these days. I think I may be oversensitive.
When she asked my Shep how long it was before he was trying to "get under Tali's helmet," I jumped up and yelled at the TV "Bitch, EVERYBODY in the damn GALAXY wants to know what Quarians look like, and that includes me on the other end of this controller!"
I still wish I knew. ;.;
I did complete her romance option in the first game, and did intend to stick with it. I was amazed how quickly I found reasons to justify my Paragon!Shep cheating on his gal . . . in the end, I think my rationale ended up being that he'd be "too perfect" otherwise, and that "plenty of great men" have been less than sterling in the matter of fidelity, which is a very nice pile of pretty crap to cover up a player who can't be arsed not to run after shiny things.
(My wife told me that was probably indicative. I'm not sure how she puts up with me, honestly.)
I did like her best in 3; I thought maybe the writers hit their stride just in time to end the damn series.
Ooh, hey, this is quite fun. Wanna pick apart Garrus's giant two-game ethical freakout? ^_^
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I could buy that to an extent--her being so isolated and away from people could make her socially awkward, but her main personality trait in one seemed to be all about LOOK HOW ALIEN I AM NOW EMBRACE ETERNITY. I guess I never quite forgave her for the mind rape. Seriously, dinner and a movie first.
LOLOLOL Except Javik--cuz he remembers what they look like without the helmet. XD
I'll admit, I think Kaiden/Ashley romancing folks who found a new romance in ME2 had it easier. When Kaiden got onto me on Horizon and I paired up with Garrus (who I'd wanted to romance since 1), I had a friend ask me why I didn't stay faithful. My exact words were "ASSHOLE DITCHED ME CUZ I PULLED AN EASTER REVIVAL. GARRUS HAS STUCK AROUND SINCE THE START. FUCK MIGRAINE-MAN, I'M HAPPY WITH MY LIZARD-KITTY."
(Psh, you get to get away with plenty of things in a video game you can't/shouldn't do in rl. 
Agreed, she'd mellowed out but proved useful (Crappy Shadow Broker-ing asiiiiiide). I think I might have liked her more if she's started out that way.
I thought it was adorable, because it's one of the few times we don't see Garrus charging straight ahead. Even in crap he's not sure of, he's good at doing with with confidence anyway, so I thought his 'I want something to go right' spiel at the end of ME2 was also really touching and grounded the whole freakout because horreesheet his former mentor is hitting on him and calm down act smooth don't panic ohgodwhatDOIDOIHAVENOFUCKINGCLUE. His more confident moments in ME3 were made all the more endearing because while he was still unsure, we still got to see his and Shepard's relationship progress into something that I felt really fit.
And dammit I would been A-OK with ME3 if there had been a scene of the two on a beach, looking at the deactivated Reapers in the ocean. That's all I needed to be happy, goddammit.
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I just laughed so hard I snorted my soup and a noodle came out my nose. So thanks for that. ^_^ I agree, Garrus was absolutely my favorite character and by far the most satisfying of Shep's relationship options, at least in my opinion. He's such a genuinely dynamic character, and his PERSONHOOD is so undeniably unique that the alien flavor of it comes across in subtle tones that never play false with the enduring traits and memories he shares with Shepard. And yes, all I needed to be happy was them on a beach. Or in a hangar bay. Or really anywhere. Also, "FUCK MIGRAINE-MAN, I'M HAPPY WITH MY LIZARD-KITTY" is my new favorite thing. I'm going to go scream that at my wife, literally right this minute.
And frankly, although infidelity is always dicey, Kaiden's completely bullshit issue-fest ALL OVER ME2 AND 3 is a far more significant betrayal and quite frankly beheaded the damn relationship anyway. So yeah, fuck that guy. Men like that in video games just keep cropping up (Carth), and they never fail to make me see red. Kaiden was such a nasal discharge about every single thing. No priorities, no loyalty, no deep emotional input to cover go along with his frenetic mental diarrhea. Argh.
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LMAO, sorry, though glad I made you laugh. Though don't go pissing your wife off. XD
I think I remember hearing it in a developer interview, but they were surprised the two top faves were Garrus and Tali--who the developers had thought were rather secondary to the human/human-like characters they had developed as love interests. Guess it goes to show one should write for the character, not for their race/gender/etc.
Bullshit issue fest? I didn't really carry on the romance after 1 ("What? Garrus is a romance option now? ...........fffffffffffffffffyesplzkthnxBioware) Also, who's Carth?
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Carth Onasi is a character (and love interest) in the Knights of the Old Republic, back in the days of the original xbox. He was...snappish, mistrustful, temperamental, quick to take offense, and even though you could make him love you, I never felt like he invested in the relationship--the type who might just break up with a person over a misunderstanding, rather than ask even a single simple question. Carth, unfortunately, was really popular at the time, although the lens of history seems to have resolved that somewhat; I always despised him. He'd been HURT BEFORE, y'see, and here's me (a somewhat younger me), Duke controller in hand, foaming, "You gotta be shitting me, Carth. We're trying to save the galaxy and you want to stop and talk about TRUST ISSUES? Bastila's becoming a Sith; WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS LATER!!!"
I just found Kaiden very reminiscent of that, in a lot of ways; thank the gods babying Kaiden was never necessary for the mission.
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Shaw was stronger than Ripley.
All Ripley did was run away.
Fact
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LOL You sure you've seen the Alien movies?
And Shaw was right about what exactly? You'll need to clarify.
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I donno, I'd imagine finding out that one's whole existence was just a fluke could be pretty upsetting. I think it's easier for cynics to except such ideas cause we don't really believe or care about anything to begin with.
But then that's just my cynical opinion.
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No, I can agree with that--it would suck to find out that your whole race's existence was really just a sea monkey project to another. From there, I can totally understand Shaw or Liara's reaction. But it's the stubborn, blind belief in things they now know that aren't fact (Liara and Shaw) and then the stupidity that comes with it (Shaw: Imma go take on a whole race of these giant Voldermorts because I believe the universe owes me an answer.) that makes me flip tables in a mixture of rage and confusion.
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Table fliping seems like a slight over reaction, but I can get what you mean.
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I was exaggerating, but it's my fault I didn't make that clear. lol
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I was also being sarcastic.
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First I have to say this is hilariously awesome!
While I haven't played ME, I totally concur with your assessment of Shaw. Then again, I thought the whole team of "researchers" was so pathetic it made me realize that the writers could only be a bunch of believers who had no clue what scientists do. We had a frat boy archaeologist, a "I have no hard evidence to support my theory just a gut feeling" archaeologist (if this is what gives you a 2 trillion dollar grant in the future... sign.me.up), a biologist who handles alien lifeforms like they were puppies (and uses the term Darwinism instead of evolution), and a geologist that looks like a prison escapee and gets lost even though he has a map. I was facepalming nearly all the way through at the three stooges like behavior by this supposed "best team of scientists".
[i]Shaw puts the Engineers on a pedestal and then gets pissed when the Engineer won't tell her why they made humans/why they "hate us so much"[/i]
To be fair, that opportunity was kind of killed due to Wayland. I doubt the alien knew what she was asking as she was screaming at it and Wayland shut her down fast so he could ask about getting immortality. I'm sure if she were to have woke him up and had David translate some things, the end result might have been different. Though honestly I doubt it considering the Engineer was still operating with 2000 year old orders to crash a weaponized ship into Earth.
What really bothered me was the fact that whole scene was cut back in length. It explained why the Engineer flipped his shit. Plus, another alternate dialog at the end between Shaw and David really showed some development on Shaw's behalf. I couldn't figure out why, after being attacked by her "creator", she was so eager to go to their homeworld. Any sane person would be like "screw that shit! I'm going home!" In the theatrical version she had this tone as if she was really looking forward to this new magical adventure. But the other version, well... Shaw had enough. She had enough of David and she wanted to know just what made the Engineers so damn special to warrant any worship. She treats David with a lot of contempt too. Why they didn't use that I have no clue because that one scene showed a lot more development of her character. If that continued in "Paradise", then she could be like Ripley.
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I'm still meh about her. It still sounds stupid she'd go hunting them down since no one's really worshiping the Engineers anymore. They knew they had a hand in their development, but Shaw seems to be the only one with this 'god' thing in her head. I'm cool if she wants to go and get her ass killed--one less annoying archeologist--just so long as the Engineers don't see it as an act of war from humans as a whole--just a crazy bitch.
Ripley never sought out the xenomorphs--not by choice (or without LOT of prodding) anyway. She knew danger when she saw it and she knew how to take it on when heading far far away in the opposite direction wasn't an option. Shaw.... kinda just prances around spouting nonsense because she believes the universe owes her.
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What I don't understand about the ending is that Shaw has access to an entire military planet worth of information on the Engineers and her own personal translator. Why would she ever leave? Even if she just wanted to go piss in the Engineers' cheerios, why not try running a quick search though their massive database to see if the answer was in there before she lost years of her life trying pick a fight? Maybe there's some weakness or piece of blackmail in there! Besides, there was probably a phone on that planet somewhere. Call them up from a safe distance. Or use that one engineer's work email to be like "heyyyyy guys, I totally just woke up with an awful case of amnesia, lol! So what am I doing here again?"
And how much must she not care about the rest of humanity to blatantly disregard all the lives she could save by giving them the Engineer's tech? Even if she destroyed all the stuff she doesn't morally approve of before they get there, the improvements in space flight alone would be worth it. But no. She'd rather go graffiti the Engineer's home planet on Earth's behalf because, y'know, there's no way that'll end in interplanetary genocide or anything.
I love this movie in the worst possible way. I love it in ways only the Homestuck fandom has words to explain.
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My parents still can't see the flaw of Prometheus, but then again they go for enjoyment and not picking apart the story like I do.
(This coming from the Doom movie fan; a movie that is stupid and easy to rip but so fun to watch XD )
I have no experience with Mass Effect apart from half an hour of boredem in the first game. The Husks were awesome, but everything else just seemed bothersome to learn about, which makes ~Argol confused due to my love of most things sci fi.
The characters seem to be an unfortunate creation. I can't decide whether the reactions are so realistic that we hate it or that they're an attempt to troll what a strong female character is. To me a strong female character would be like Integra out of Hellsing Ultimate. She doesn't have to say "I'm a strong woman!". She just does her job without it being this huge issue.
I feel people shouldn't have to say "this is a woman! She is strong!" in media. It should just be "this character is strong. Forget gender!"
After all, Ripley didn't have to do it.
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Yeah. Mass Effect is sadly extremely slow once you get to the Citadel. From a narrative perspective it's crucial since it establishes the universe, but good god, I wish they had done it in a more engaging way than run around talking to space politicians.
My biggest beef is that she was dumb. Plain and simple. I don't understand how people can see her as an awesome character when she only survived on pure luck. (Hopped up on enough pain meds to make her forget the alphabet but she can outrun a crashing spaceship and Vickers--who was in amazing shape--couldn't.) But I agree, .it's like writing: show us a badass character, don't tell us.
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I've heard some folks say that what we really need are weak female characters and I sort of agree. The "strong female character" has become just as binding and cliche as the damsel in distress. Let's see some flaws! Some real people!
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I really just want a good character. Gender often just irks me, usually because people's perception of a good "female" character usually isn't the same interpretation to me compared to other people's interpretations.
I see weak female characters all the time in romantic comedies or dramas. All they seem to do is bicker, use double-standards or manipulate guys to get their way, and yet if said guy uses the same tactics he's often demonised.
I want real people, just like you do XD
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