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OttoVonSuds — Our favorite Austrian painter

Published: 2013-01-27 20:38:24 +0000 UTC; Views: 12362; Favourites: 55; Downloads: 64
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Description Here's another classic AH.com timeline as interpreted by me. Presenting Our Favorite Austrian painter by Aedh Rua, with influences from various no-WWII maps such as Quantumbranching's Greater Czechoslovakia and Elleander morning. and little bits like say the name "Sovereignty Pact" from other Quantumbranching maps.

This isn't the first time I've tried doing a map based on this timeline. The last time around, I ended up putting too many communist regimes and repurposed it for an original world(The "Fifth International" map I had on here once).

In it, Hitler got accepted to art school, which meant that his role in public life was confined to being Bavaria's minister of the arts and culture until his death from a stroke in april of 1972. Hitler's main achievements are his working with Speer for the rebuilding of Berlin in the early 1940s. He was survived by his homosexual lover, one Ernst Rohm.

Without hitler, the 1920s followed roughly our world's course in most of the world. The one divergence of note, was the NSDAP never really cohering without hitler as a unifying figure. Hitler's personal fortunes took a turn for the better when he met one Albert Speer.

The lack of the NSDAP meant that when German democracy collapsed into street fighting in the early 1930s, the result was a military regime taking power instead of a party regime. Unfortunately for AH fans, this regime's secret police wore plainclothes and modeled themselves on the American FBI. Outside of Germany for the most part, the 1930s mostly resembled ours. Like in our 1930s, Japan invaded China but unlike in our world there was no distracted West for Japan to take advantage of and expand it's empire elsewhere. Britain and France tut tutted at that and the Italian occupation of both Albania and Ethiopia, but didn't do anything.

The 1940s are radically different as there is no war. Germany unifies with Austria in 1942 and provokes Poland into a war over the corridor which it wins. The fact that the German junta is a bit less ambitious and confined it's ambitions to 1) removing the treaty of versailles restrictions 2) reclaiming the rhineland 3) uniting with Austria and 4) getting the corridor back helps. Granted, the Junta's diplomats being more tactful men than the nazis is probably the biggest factor helping them get away with it.

The union of socialist soviet republics melted down in the early 1970s because the successors to Stalin were all uninspiring men who didn't feel a need to do even Khrustchev's level of economic reform. This meant that the 1950s and 60s saw stagnation, which bred resentment. It all came down crashing when the premier was assasinated. There were briefly two governments in Leningrade and Kiev, but by 1973-4, the USSR melted down. In a world without the war against the nazis to make Russians anti-fascist for generations, a "Red-Brown" coalition emerged and by the late 1970s had reclaimed much of the old USSR.

Colonialism in both the direct form and french-style neocolonialism both lasted a generation longer without a world war to break the economies of Europe and allow the USSR to expand it's influence and respectability. As a result, the years 1975-1990 are considered this world's decolonization period. Of course, even now some nations retain colonies. This status includes includes integrated areas such as the US territory of Hawai'i, French Guinea which was incorporated into the metropole along with brutally exploited trouble spots like Italian East Africa.

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Compared to our world, international competition is a bit more relaxed and multipolar. Yes, there are several thousand nukes total under the control of the bigger powers, and a few more ambitious lesser states but it's not as dangerous as our cold war was.

The League of nations is _still_ around and still less effective than our United nations is. At least it's had fewer scandals than our UN did.

World fascism has formed an economic and military association in the form of the Sovereignty Pact. This pact's members range from orthodox fascist states like Italy, the "islamic fascism" of Saudi Arabia, Brazil's anti-racist integralism, populist clerical-fascist Russia, to democratic but belligerant India. One thing they all have in common is nationalism, corporatist economics, fancy uniforms, anti-communism and a degree of environmentalism.

The Russian state that emerged after the collapse of the Molotov regime in the early 70s has displaced Italy as the leader of world fascism. Russia isn't quite third world, but it's rather poor and rural compared to first world norms. The government is a fascist regime, that's most comparable to a mix of Franco's Spain and OTL's Iran; extreme social conservatism, clerical influence in politics and 'populist' economics. Despite the civil war that ended the old sovietg regime, there are many more Russians than in our world due to 1) the earlier end of communism 2) higher (if dropping) birthrates due to a more traditionalist government and a more rural population. There is endless trouble in Russian Central Asia from locals who aren't happy with the fact that the regime sends missionariess.

Italy is no longer the leader of World Fascism, but it's still one of the biggest players. As was the case at the end of Aedh Rua's original timeline, the Italian government is pragmatic and flexible on what fascism is. Nowadays, Italy is pretty capitalist and more relaxed than most of the fascist block re: personal freedom, if not open on political freedom. Italian Libya is majority european nowadays and it along with both Albania and Dalmatia are culturally italianized. Ethiopia remains a trouble spot and the local administrators are considering breaking it up into a couple different colonies to make divide and rule policies more effective.

"Fascist" post-Franco's spain is pretty relaxed nowadays and keeps it's colonies mainly to look macho. The government has opted to go to the route of one party actually wins election and opposition candidates sometimes get thrown out of helicopters or end up in jail.

Without any minorities to worry about, Slovenia's fascists are quite relaxed and the only thing stopping an open return to democracy is Italy's presence to the south.

Portugal is starting to run out of money to maintain it's colonial empire, and it's leaders are considering giving their colonies "autonomous"(puppet state) status because they're tired of trying to maintain them. Portugal's having a more traditional society, combined with Salazar's rather pro-settlement policy means that their colonies have visible if small mixed and european minority populations.

The Arab Union is basically a larger version of Mubarak's Egypt with a more capitalistic economy, oil money and 50 rusting nukes. There is trouble in Kurdistan, Shia Iraq and Yemen, but nothing with the potential to topple the regime since better economic policy means that there's less discontent. It's more secular than our world's pre-arab spring Egypt because of Fascism providing a uniting force combined with Fascism's opposition to independent forces like the Muslim Brotherhood.

The State of French Algeria is a ruthless apartheid state. Nowadays, like the rest of the fascist block there's been a limited degree of moderation. In the State of French Algeria this consists of allowing culturally assimilated arabs to get citizenship -- previously this was confined to converts to christianity.

Greece is bankrupt like OTL, with the money being blown on an attempt to build an intimidating military-industrial complex, instead of creating a large welfare state.

Cuba is first world, but unlike most non-communist cubas not a center of glitzy decadence. Think a social conservatism more like a mix of Pinochet's Chile and Franco's Spain. At least, since Fidel retired in 2001 and Raul replaced him, they've reopened a few of the casinos as part of a limited and partial relaxation. Still no whores, though.

Syria is like our world's regime, but with more wealth because of capitalist economics.

Fascist Haiti is at low-end latin American levels of wealth and public order, which means it's a significant step up from our world's african-level Haitian regime. Unfortunately, Haiti hasn't produced anyone quite as interesting as OTL's Papa Doc and Baby doc.

Fascist Turkey is less democratic, but more secular than our Turkey. The same goes for Iran which is a continued version of the Shah's regime. As should be obvious from these examples and the arab union, political islam is a far weaker ideology than in our world's middle east. This has had positive effects re: the rights of women and intellectuals in muslim nations.

Palestine is run by a generic corrupt one-party state and is actually quiet.

The State of China really doesn't like either the PRC or the Qing Empire. The government is comparable to our PRC, except there's more saluting and rallies. Like our China, there are lots of factories making products to sell in other nations. The State of China's development of the atomic bomb in 1990 hasn't been helping matters.

Brazil is capitalist, more environmentalist, wealthier and rather more traditionalist than in our world. Brasilia has lots of Speer-Hitler school of architecture-inspired buildings, even complete with swastika mosaics on the floor. The evangelical churches and syncretist cults which have done so well in our world have had much less success and more opposition from the government. Like Cuba, the Integralist government has clamped down on Brazil's libertinism and is only starting to let up now.

A Very Hindu India joined the Sovereignty Pact in the late 1970s after Britain kept blocking attempts for India to unite with the "Autonomous regions" of Bengal and Pakistan and went far enough to create independent states. It's not an authoritarian regime, it's just one with a political spectrum biased towards what would be BJP or Hindtuva types in OTL and one party, the Indian Progress Party. At least there isn't a "licence" Raj, but there is even _more_ prudery and censorship of media on morals grounds than in our India. Bollywood still exists and the Indian film industry produces alot of propaganda musicals, complete with the obligatory singing and dancing.

In opposition to the Sovereignty Pact, a group of democratic powers has organized itself under the aegis of the Atlantic Economic community. They are the British Confederation, The French community and German mitteleuropa. One notable difference from our world, is that the Atlantic Community states have a more lively populist right than in our world without the bad example of the nazis to discredit the old postwar right.

The leader of the atlantic community is the British Confederation. This is a group of Britain, it's dominions and former colonies which retain ties to the motherland. Britain itself is more culturally influenced by the former empire for good and for ill. There are curry shops in London, vuvuzelas plague sports events and ska is the happening musical genre. Britain itself is more nationalist, more egalitarian and more populist than our world.

Canada is a bit more anglophile and tied to the empire. One odd note, is that Canada is a bit more social conservative, due to elements of Quebec's right discovering the drive for more provincial autonomy and using it to more or less butterfly out the quiet revolution.

Australia remains lilly white. Like in OTL, a drive to "populate or perish" led to a largescale expansion of European immigration so it's actually less english dominated than in our world. It's "stolen generation" policies remain even as of 2013.

South Africa now lets the top 50% of black voters vote and has less petty discrimination since OTL grand apartheid was butterflied out. However, there are only a few blacks in high office and no black Prime Ministers yet, even if they did let an Indian be PM in the late 1990s. Better treatment for the black population led to an early demographic transition so South Africa is only around 2/3 black instead of 79%.

Terrorism-troubled Rhodesia has recently transitioned to full majority rule. Over the decades, Rhodesia transitioned from letting 15-20% of blacks vote in theory, to enforcing it in the 60s and then slowly expanding it as 1) Rhodesia became wealthier 2). Left-wing parties of course remain banned and liberal parties are monitored.

France is democratic after a period of military rule in the 1970s and 1980s. Attempts to try holding on to Algeria led to... uncomfortable policies at home and certain extreme right elements stealing a few nukes and hightailing it to algiers. At least French culture and science have mostly recovered from the stagnating effect of the period of military rule and French politics is now only marginally more toxic than in our world. France did manage to keep a few bits and pieces like Guinea, French Guyana and Madagascar as integral parts of the metropole though.

Unlike in our world, France's neocolonial dominance in africa actually amounts to something. The usage of the French franc combined with occasional interventions has forced a certain amount of fiscal discipline. Former French West Africa is quite poor, but is a clear improvement over our world's situation.

The Netherlands retains Irian jaya and has had to resort to lots of subsidies and bribing via welfare policies to keep the number of people moving to the metropole low, like our world's US does with Puerto rico.

Germany stands out as the richest and most technologically sophisticated nation on earth, and it's two mega-cities of Berlin and Vienna are truly world cities. The fact that Germany avoided the hitler interlude has enabled it to keep it's position on top of the sciences and culture. Yes, Germany experienced a 25-year long period of military rule, but this didn't drive off or kill Germany's artistic or scientific talent. In fact, Germany was the first nation to both land men on the moon and create a permanent lunar base. No hohozellerns willingly accepted the throne again, but the generals found a Hapsburg who was willing to accept the title of German Emperor under a constitution more like the British one than the Wilhemeine one. This is even down to having first past the post and instant recall voting with predictable results: Germany politcis is a 2.5 party system where the German Conservative People's Party and the Liberal Democratic Party compcete and the third outlier being a small left-wing party in the form of the German Democratic Party(a social liberal party as opposed to social democratic). There was sharp no postwar move to the left, but instead gradual relaxation. As a result, Germany remains a conservative, staid nation of pious burghers some of whom are concerned about the Reich being a bit _too_ liberal, with the energetic promotion of white immigration making things a bit too diverse(Yugoslavs, ukranians, hungarians, Argentines, lighter indians etc).

Mitteleuropa is Germany's collection of allies in central and Eastern europe. They are conservative, stable, bourgieouse democracies which never suffered the horrors of the second world war or soviet occupation. The scandanavian states, baltic republics and Czechslovakia were all democracies from day one. On the other hand, the states located in eastern europe and balkans took until the period of 1960 to 1985 in the case of Ukraine, which remains a bit of a reactionary outlier to democratize. Like Germany, all of these nations are conservative, capitalist and rather more devout than in our world.

Scandanavians are even wealthier, more idealistic and more insufferable than in our world. Think of Sweden as a small slice of near-OTL, with the differences being more german influence on popular culture and Sweden not really having muslim immigrants besides a small number of Bosnian yugoslavs. Norway is much the same thanks to oil. Denmark is a bit more conservative and it's staid society is having a bit of trouble fitting in a serbian minority.

Iceland is independent in all but name and foreign policy, which amounts to voting with Denmark in the league of nations.

Without a cold war to block off eastern europe as a source of immigration, combined with the USSR melting down while it was demographically healthier, there being a lack of a sharp postwar turn to the left and there being no real reason to buddy up to the middle east for anti-communist reasons continental Europe didn't really see muslim immigration on OTL's scale. Yes, Britain and France have a few coming in from their former empires but put alot more effort into assimilating them.

The United States is considered one of the more important great powers but never entered the world. This is a world where America never had the "American Century" and doesn't miss it. Without a cold war to make decentralizing the population look like a smart move, suburbanization and the rise of the sunbelt both haven't happened. Jim Crow lasted into the 1980s, but on the other hand it's a bit less sexist and prudish, with the lack of a "rosie the riveter" period in WWII being counteracted by no post-WWII reaction. This is an america where the New york Times has page 3 girls, 6 states have legal marijuana, half the nation has legal gay marriage but dixie had a massive period of legal resistance comparable to 1964-75 which only wound down in the early 2000s. Demographically, America is whiter since immigration was opened up only in the 1990s and. On an economic level, the United States's economic policy is similar to ours in many respects, if banking is a bit more regulated and there is more protectionism. At least there's universal healthcare since the fact that Fascist, communist and even "free world" nations all having it makes the public perception of universal healthcare being a bit different. In foreign policy terms, America remains isolationist -- it likes the AEC states, but doesn't get their reflexive hostility to fascism(Fidel Castro and Benito Mussolini seem like reasonable chaps to deal with. Without a second world war or cold war to lead to the creation of a national security state on OTL's level, we have better civil liberties.

A still militarist Japan has filled the role of OTL China in being the source of many products and a political headache for the west. Japan is still a center of popular culture, though. Japan is democratic for Japanese, taiwanese and a few collaborator Koreans. It's less so for non-loyalist Koreans and even less for the residents of the Manchurian prefectures. At least the efforts to integrate Koreans into the body politic is sorta working and the terrorism has gone down to Northern ireland's levels, but Manchuria is pretty much fun-sized hell. Japan's military-industrial complex has put money into attempting to build giant robots, with not much luck. At least the atomic rockets they built early last decade actually work and don't blow up the parts of Karafuto they're launched from anymore.

Japan maintains an alliance of anti-communist, anti-fascist but otherwise right-wing states in Asia. They're even mostly willing allies, too! Qing China and the Mongol state that Japan created during the second russian revolution are the only forced puppets. Bengal, The Philippines, Siam and Indochina are all willing allies. In fact, both Bengal and Indochina are fascist but oppose the Sovereignty Pact because India and China are Pact members.

Qing China is Japan's little buddy. It's more capitalist than our world's China and actually more honest since there's the "mandate of heaven" to keep the imperial government honest in theory. It's about as rich and polluted as our PRC, alas. At least traditional culture has done better under the Qing.

There are a few minor remaining communistic or hard left regimes like the People's Republic of China or Ruanda-Burundi or Burma, but communism is a less credible ideology than in even our world thanks to the fact that the soviet implosion was messier. Indonesia's government is pretty scary, though -- no nukes or even a coherent project to build a nuke but the government was stalinist into the 1980s and is even now still rather brutal.

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The space race was delayed a decade and a half, but it was pursued with greater vigor. Germany launched a satellite in 1970, then followed it up with a man in orbit by 1973 and a ship orbiting the moon by 1977. Germany led the powers to space, and everyone has followed with the United States landing the first man on the moon in 1985. The period 1970 to 2000 saw a multiple-party space race, which petered out when the russian Vozdh, American president and the other leaders of space-capable nations saw the cost projections for trying to send someone to mars and bring them back. There are solar power satellites, orbital factories(they'll break even in 5 years from now, honest!) and Hilton Orbital will open up this spring.

The historical development of technology in this world has seen a certain lag or delay in many areas compared to our world with no second world war, and the North Atlantic Community's cold war with the fascists being much more limp. Computers and networking are 20 years behind our world. Aerospace is a bit more advanced than in our world, with multiple powers having sent men to the moon and two nations(Germany and the US) have moon bases. Biotechnology is about five years ahead of our world due to no rejection of eugenics to reduce arguments against it. Most other areas range from 5 to 15 years behind.

The demographics of judaism without the holocaust are pretty much much the same as in our world, despite the lack of mass deaths and healthier birthrates in western europe. The higher number of survivors is made up for an increase in assimilation, in a west that's gradually getting more tolerant combined with secularization. Zionism never took off, so the attempt to revive hebrew as more than a liturgical language didn't work out. There is more yiddish slang than in our world for non-NYC westerners.

Without a holocaust to change western opinion, organized anti-semitism lasted rather longer and the "glass ceiling" lasted until the 1980s to 1990s and more conservative western nations like the US or Germany have worrying undercurrents of antisemitism. The ivies and other respectable all still have their quotas of how many jewish students they'll let in, if any. The only upside of this, is that the anti-semitism which persists is more of a genteel or slowly eroding status quo-based anti-semitism and we have exterminationist anti-semitism being less popular than even OTL. There are far fewer conspiracy theories centered around Judaism than in our world.

The environmental situation is a bit better than in our world thanks to World Fascism's attachment to the environment -- Whaling is actually banned, a few recent extinctions haven't happened(The Baiji is merely critically endangered) and more rainforest is still around. There is more usage of nuclear, wind and orbital solar than in our world which means that the ability of world oil producers to form a cartel was delayed until the mid 1980s and peak oil isn't expected until the early 2020s.

Mid-century architecture was a bit better than in our world, with no world war two to destroy old buildings combined with the Hitler-Speer style of architecture which incorporated such geometric motifs as swastikas to provide a different environment. Futurist aesthetics are more respectable. Unfortunately, the one attempt to build an arcology outside of Los Angeles turned it into a giant slum and didn't work out.
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Comments: 18

philco6505 [2017-12-13 20:38:27 +0000 UTC]

I continue to be amazed at the creativity and imagination of others who enjoy alt-history as I do.

I have often played with the time-line of "if Hitler had been admitted to art school in Vienna," too. I've been an on-going student of the Third Reich--in particular, of Dr. Speer--for some time, too.

Advice, of course, is worth what you pay for it. But, I'd avoid the Hitler was gay thing. It just has no legs, historically. Hitler was not gay. He was evil and, no surprise, he treated the women in his life like s**t. But, their is plenty of evidence to support those female affairs; no substantiated evidence to support the argument that Hitler was gay.

But, it is true that Rohm was one of the few people Hitler was on a "du" relationship with. But, there was nothing extraordinary between them, let alone a gay relationship.

Hitler's true Bromance was with Dr. Albert Speer. Professor Speer alluded to that in "Inside the Third Reich," but made it more clear in his conversations with journalist Gitta Sereny. She, too, does a great investigative job in determining their relationship. Neither Hitler nor Speer was gay. Hitler had hetrosexual daliances during his life and Speer was also straight. But, there was a truly deep love between the two--again expressed and supported by Speer's own words. But, it never became physical.

It's interesting to wonder "What would have happened..." if Hitler became the artist he wanted to. He might have faded into history. 

The big question is what would have happened to Germany during the Great Depression. Germany was finally recovering in the late 20s, but when the Depression hit, everything went sideways and the still vengeful Allies refused to support centrist government, assuring the collapse of the democratic republic. Other rightist organizations could have arisen. But, there is just as much of a chance that the Communists could have come to power.

Dr. Speer--if the centrist government held--would have probably just been an architect. Hitler's Germania ideas were megalomaniac in nature; he was literally planning to bulldoze one-half the entire city of Berlin to rebuild it in his image. It's doubtful that any government but one he led as dictator would have proceeded with those plans.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

Keep it up!

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Joseph20102011 [2014-11-28 15:44:27 +0000 UTC]

What happened to Argentina in this ATL?

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bruiser128 [2014-11-10 22:36:31 +0000 UTC]

Fascism without Nazi association would do far better than OTL in terms of appeal.

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OttoVonSuds In reply to bruiser128 [2014-11-11 00:09:32 +0000 UTC]

Eyep. Hence the fascist bloc.

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bruiser128 In reply to OttoVonSuds [2014-11-11 00:48:22 +0000 UTC]

Well I stopped associating fascism with Nazism after getting into politics.

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jefffletcher [2013-08-02 04:48:57 +0000 UTC]

Brilliant piece of work! I found the bit about Japan developing giant robots a hilarious tidbit - I don't suppose that's to battle the giant monsters, right? 

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mdc01957 [2013-01-28 04:32:54 +0000 UTC]

Curious, though IMO you'd imagine the French retaining a more Commonwealth-type grip in their former colonies given their situation (to compete with the Brits with after all...). Also, the muslim immigration in OTL alone is markedly more complex (eg. the Turks and Yugoslavs being brought over to Austria as workers...but stayed) but less dramatic in OTL than how some people like to put it (i.e. the odds of Eurabia actually happening are close to zero especially with the populist backlash).

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OttoVonSuds In reply to mdc01957 [2013-01-28 04:54:31 +0000 UTC]

France tries just that with only limited results given communist and fascist promotion of unrest.

Without the iron curtain, you get poles and others being available so they don't need to recruit turks. Yugoslavs? They'd get some muslims, but fewer than OTL with more labor sources besides Yugoslavia being available. When has something being false been enough reason to discredit it as an issue for people to rally against? A more nationalist europe would get snippy about fewer muslims than our europe did.

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mdc01957 In reply to OttoVonSuds [2013-01-28 06:03:25 +0000 UTC]

You have a point there. Without WW2's aftermath, I could plausibly see a more nationalist Germany being very uppity with minute muslim minorities.

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OttoVonSuds In reply to mdc01957 [2013-01-28 15:34:07 +0000 UTC]

Yup.

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mdc01957 In reply to OttoVonSuds [2013-01-28 15:51:27 +0000 UTC]

Hmm...so what else is in store?

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OttoVonSuds In reply to mdc01957 [2013-01-28 15:54:18 +0000 UTC]

You'll see. I need to actually finish the writeups so don't expect anything for a while.

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mdc01957 In reply to OttoVonSuds [2013-01-29 14:43:43 +0000 UTC]

It's alright.

I've also got a Byzantine map in the works btw.

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QuantumBranching [2013-01-28 01:50:49 +0000 UTC]

Interesting: a Very Fascist World.

How come Red China didn't get eaten after Communism fell in the USSR? Both the Qing and the Republic claim it and neither will let the other take it without a fight?

Qing China? OTL, that was Manchuria...did Pu Yi get a transfer?

I am a bit dubious about the Arabs being part of the Sovereignty pact while fellow member Italy engages in ethnic cleansing in Libya, and fellow member Algeria engages in acts of Draka-like brutality to keep _its_ Arabs in line. (Well, maybe the Saudis, they're big enough bastards to write them off as not Wahabis or something, but Egyptians? )

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OttoVonSuds In reply to QuantumBranching [2013-01-28 02:41:25 +0000 UTC]

Pretty much that and Russia likes having it as a buffer and isn't overly pleased with Japan over Mongolia, so it turns a blind eye to outsiders propping up the PRC. This situation isn't necessarily stable. I'll put it like this, be very glad that the total world nuclear arsenals are in the hundreds to low thousands, and not at even OTL mid cold war levels -- between this and the potential arab and or russian splits of Fascism that I mention in my last response to you this world has about a 75-90% chance of a medium or largescale nuclear war by 2033 ranging between early/mid 1950s level to the worst case being cuban missile war levels.

Pretty much, yes.

Yeah. That's not very stable and will probably not last much longer. I was presenting a snapshot of the world around now. Then again, the Arab world isn't the only potential fracture within World Fascism. There's room for an Italian/Russian split between moderates and more extremists to go along with the arab/third world fascist split.

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QuantumBranching In reply to OttoVonSuds [2013-01-28 02:51:10 +0000 UTC]

"Yeah. That's not very stable and will probably not last much longer. I was presenting a snapshot of the world around now."

Why shouldn't it last longer? After all, the Arabs have been putting up with horrible Pied Noir oppression of Algerians for _over thirty years_ at this point, not counting previous French oppression...

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OttoVonSuds In reply to QuantumBranching [2013-01-28 03:47:54 +0000 UTC]

Long-lived and healthy[1] leadership will keep things sorta-stable. Remember that the OTL revolution in Egypt happened when Mubarak was borderline senile.

[1] Exercising more and a better diet has kept TTL's version of Mubarak with a mental/physical state more like his 90s/early 00s self. Wait a few more years...

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AmongTheSatanic [2013-01-28 01:17:52 +0000 UTC]

Interesting.

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