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Pachyornis — Excess tissue: Komodo dragon

Published: 2018-09-17 10:53:51 +0000 UTC; Views: 10501; Favourites: 573; Downloads: 0
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Description The lip discussion is a probably endless topic with good arguments on both sides concerning lips or no lips for nonavian theropods/dinosaurs and most likely will not be solved in my comment section here but only by something like soft tissue impressions covering the jaws of a theropod skull. Thus it is not my intention to provoke a lip discussion here but rather to make an artistic contribute. Actually it is not only about lips but excess tissue in general. I think "excess tissue" is supposed to refer to a quantity of soft tissue that goes beyond the minimum that is necessary to cover the skull in a physiologically sensible way. Theropods have been reconstructed with almost no excess tissue during the most recent decades (I am not necessarily talking about "shrink-wrapping") so that you can clearly see the structure of the skull in the living animal, and the pattern of scales also follows the skull shape. I thought it might be a good idea to look at living sauropsidans in order to see if this is realistic. I choose the komodo dragon. Squamates are only very distant relatives of nonavian theropods, but in contrary to the much closer crocodiles and birds which have highly modified skull bones and integument, they have a very standard sauropsidan skull so I think the comparison is not that bad. 

At first, I drew a komodo dragon skull by tracking out a photograph (www.skullsunlimited.com/userfi… ) (top). Then I "reconstructed" the soft tissue as if I would reconstruct a theropod in the manner that has been practice of the most recent decades (middle). Then I "reconstructed" the soft tissue by looking at the actual living animal (bottom). The difference is quite huge. The actual komodo dragon carries much more soft tissue on its skull than the "theropod" version, and also the scale pattern does not really follow the bone structure (it is not that bone areas that stick out the most have the largest scales). The mouth line for example does not give anything on the edges of the jaw bones. In the komodo dragon skull you actually also see that the bone surface on the snout is a little more rugose than on the lower jaw, similar to tyrannosaurids but not to the same extent, but you don't see anything of that in the living animal. 

I'm not saying one should ignore osteological correlates, not at all. The bone often shows you where areas must have been keratinized and there is no such area on a komodo skull, and a lot of foramina indicate more soft tissue, which is what we find in the komodo skull (see the foramina on the lip area). Many theropods also have plenty of foramina on the jaw edges, tyrannosaurids especially on the chin area which might indicate a lot of excess tissue in the living animal. 

I did this drawing just to provoke thought, perhaps it is time to "flesh up" theropod skulls a little bit. 
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Comments: 31

PeteriDish [2019-10-07 22:16:14 +0000 UTC]

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nchamunda [2018-10-14 21:52:05 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for the discussion about excess tissue and Komodo dragons, Pachyornis.

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Lucas-Attwell [2018-09-28 23:03:50 +0000 UTC]

LoOK how SCienc3 ruined Komdo drAGON !!111!!!!!1!111!!1!!!

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Dromaeus In reply to Lucas-Attwell [2019-03-20 05:48:02 +0000 UTC]

tRu3!

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Philoceratops [2018-09-19 15:13:45 +0000 UTC]

This is a good point to make, as well as a pretty good drawing!

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jijisnum10 [2018-09-19 13:22:09 +0000 UTC]

This is a really interesting discussion. I have never really thought about what the extra tissue on a dinosaur might look like. You should draw up what you think a t rex would look like with all the extra tissue. Or perhaps another dinosaur. This is an excellent drawing good job.

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Pachyornis In reply to jijisnum10 [2018-09-19 20:45:04 +0000 UTC]

Thanks! I am going to do an Allosaurus "jimmadseni" (Big Al) the way I imagine it considering the "excess tissue" soon. 

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jijisnum10 In reply to Pachyornis [2018-09-24 14:47:57 +0000 UTC]

That's awesome. Big Al is probably my third favorite dinosaur.

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SkyfireDragon [2018-09-18 16:09:14 +0000 UTC]

Very cool! Interesting argument.

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SinisterGehe [2018-09-18 10:30:30 +0000 UTC]

Tbh. Without extra skin... It would look just goofy.  Now I try to imagine what it would look if it had too much skin. Like a Mastiff.

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GlaxusPlaxus [2018-09-18 10:00:42 +0000 UTC]

I've often wondered this myself, brilliant work.

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Xender1500 [2018-09-18 09:55:24 +0000 UTC]

You went really in-depth in the explanation, and even though I know nothing on the subjects you used easily-searchable terms, spoke plainly, and went in-depth but no more than necessary
Well done

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SmidgeFish [2018-09-18 09:26:06 +0000 UTC]

I am a person who knows literally nothing more than some names of dinosaurs, so my opinion probs doesn't matter that much, but it would make sense if dinosaurs weren't skin and bones as they sometimes are depicted. I always found it kinda strange how you can almost see the outline of the skull on their heads in art depictions. So I really like the "lip" idea, mostly on an aesthetic level

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dewlap [2018-09-18 09:01:54 +0000 UTC]

Shouldn't the ear running roughly behind the quadrate instead of the depressor mandibulae?


See bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/tr… for examples

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Pachyornis In reply to dewlap [2018-09-27 21:53:14 +0000 UTC]

Thanks! I have always been unsure about the position of the ear. 

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dewlap In reply to Pachyornis [2018-09-28 02:12:26 +0000 UTC]

No problem, glad to help.

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thePalmTree [2018-09-18 08:22:32 +0000 UTC]

Interesting indeed 

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dromaeodisco [2018-09-18 06:57:37 +0000 UTC]

Awesome work! And very interesting! 

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Mindslave24-7 [2018-09-18 05:18:34 +0000 UTC]

Valid point! Finally! Somebody actually says, "Hey look! Look at real life and realize what really is going on! They're not all skin-skull zombie critters! 
Duh! Subcutaneous fat is what makes chicken taste so good.  

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Ben-Del [2018-09-18 03:21:09 +0000 UTC]

Now going upwards from the skull, show the transition from a shoe.

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StopItLiz [2018-09-18 02:20:18 +0000 UTC]

when the water starts rising in the toilet

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Shyannth In reply to StopItLiz [2018-09-18 04:36:25 +0000 UTC]

HOH MY GOSH YES

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Wesdaaman [2018-09-18 00:58:35 +0000 UTC]

This does bring up a good point on how there is so much we don't know from ancient bones.

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mopolo95 [2018-09-17 22:49:31 +0000 UTC]

Your reflexion is really interessting.


Before stating anythong else, i'd like to say that my knowledge about dinausaurs and reptiles in general is really limited (and is nothing compared to what seem to be yours). I'm not really aware of the "lip discussion" and would be really interested to know more about it (do you have a reference in mind ?). However, from what i can figure, I cannot think of any current reptiles without lips exept from the tetsudine family (turtles/turtoises, with fossils evidences of the first members of that family presenting teeth) and crocodiles (with not that many ancetors having skulls alike crocodiles - allowing to think that the members of the crocodile family "loose" their lips in their evolution) putting aside avian species.


About the whole topic of excess soft tissue (and not only for the lips), i think you tackle a issue that really isn't limited to a few species, and especially for carnivorous species for which this the current representation of "full muscules" cannot be witnessed (to my knowledge) for any living carnivorous species, reptilian or not.

By an analogy that is maybe utterly false, and from what i think having witnessed for reptilan as well as for mammalian carnivores, the size (or at least weight) seems to have a link to the amount of soft tissue it will have - i think espacially of the comparison between small lizards and komodo dragons or one including tigers and smaller wild cats (probably irrelevant).


For what i can see, soft tissues were way more taken into account for herbivorous dinousaurs given the size of most contemporaneous big herbivores; and maybe in order to mark the opposition, canivorous species were given really little of it.


So, i hope what i wrote isn't just a block of non-sense and i hope you will forgive me for my grammatical mistakes, i am not a native speaker and it had been years since i wrote that much.


Have a great day

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Jarvis555TheWolf [2018-09-17 20:13:52 +0000 UTC]

That's really interesting! Awesome job.

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KionoWinterfox [2018-09-17 13:02:21 +0000 UTC]

Huh, this is indeed a huge difference! Makes one wonder what dinosaurs and such actually looked like!

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Evodolka [2018-09-17 11:22:45 +0000 UTC]

interesting
i actually see a lot of megalania depictions look like that middle head, i have no idea WHY when komodos exist

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dinoboi2001 In reply to Evodolka [2020-07-09 18:55:16 +0000 UTC]

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Evodolka In reply to dinoboi2001 [2020-07-09 21:00:33 +0000 UTC]

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dinoboi2001 In reply to Evodolka [2020-07-09 21:02:45 +0000 UTC]

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Evodolka In reply to dinoboi2001 [2020-07-09 21:27:59 +0000 UTC]

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