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Shippochan1000 In reply to Lunchi [2020-02-25 20:08:54 +0000 UTC]

It always hurts me when they spreading lies. If they would stick to the truth i would not object but this makes me angry. All people working in animal care at acreditet facilities live for the animals they care for, they are like family and get treated like such.

I was so happy seeing Ula and morgen happy together. During the presentation when Ula tried to imitate her mother and Adan my heart melted.

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Shippochan1000 In reply to Miss-Barker [2020-01-02 13:36:44 +0000 UTC]

I hope you can visit them someday^^

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Shippochan1000 In reply to LordVaderNihilus [2019-12-17 16:48:57 +0000 UTC]

Which zoological degree do you have and where did you study orcas?

Blackfish has a few truth but a lot of interviews were completely thrown out of context an and divided into parts and then put back together diffrently. With this they made positiv interviews into something negativ. A real documentary would not do this and show both sides truthfully.

Orcas in captivity which live in scientifically managed facilities like loro Parque do quite well. They show natural behavior and breed naturally. Orcas don't breed if not feeling well. The stress levels of the orcas at loro parque are similar in some cases even lower than of orcas in the wild which was proven by independent marine biologists. Over the last few years loro parque spent over 19 million dollar to help animals in their natural habitat including endangered orca populations like the one in the street of gibraltar.

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LordVaderNihilus In reply to Shippochan1000 [2019-12-17 23:11:22 +0000 UTC]

First of,  you dont need  a degree  to  know  if  captivity  is  good  or  not  for  an  orca. However  I  have  books  and  documentaries  that  have  a lot  of  information that  talk  about  their  life  in  the  wild  and  why  its  better 

1- orcas live  longer  in  the  wild, males  get  to  live 60 - 65 years  old  while females  live 90 years. In captivity  they  just  live half of  those  years,  at  best. 

2 - its  not  healthy  for  females  to get  pregnant  at age  12 or  14, the organism  of a female orca is mature  at  age  17, if  pregnant at 12 orcas have  the  same risks of  miscarrige or possible  death  during  or before  giving  birth 

3 - orcas in  both  the wild and captivity  eat around 500 to 1200 kilos  of food, but orcas in the wild have a better diet since  they eat: seals, sharks, penguins,  dolphins,  whales,  squid,  octopus and  turtles  wich,  increases their  stamina and years of  life,  something  orcas in captivity  don't  have. 

4 - orcas in captivity  suffer great  levels  of  stress because they dont  get to swim great distances,  they  don't  have  the chance  to learn, improve  or even  come  up  with  hunting  techniques,  sure  they learn  tricks  but  that's  not  the same.  Not to mention  that orcas that  live in captivity  have  to share  space with  orcas from other parts  of the world and their  communication doesn't  allow  them  to get  along,  why?  Every  pod  has their own  language and it becomes  impossible  to try to  talk to someone  who doesn't  undwrstandunderstand  you

5 - orcas at  captivity  have  terrible  health, orcas often  have injuries  from fights  with other orcas wich  leads  to  strokes,  heart failure and inner  bleeding, something  that  orcas on  the  wild  do not  suffer a lot.  Also,  sometimes  orcas in  captivity  get  infections  from  their  teeth  regardless  if  vets  do  something  so  they don't  chew  parts  of the  tank  or  from  chewing  from  the  tank  itself 

6 - mental  health  on wild  orcas are like  those  of  humans  that  live  a normal  life,  with  their ups  and downs  but  always normal  and ordinary,  mental  health  in orcas in  captivity  are  similar  to the one  of kidnap victims,  they  feel  depressed,  anxious,  desperate  and looking  ways  to  escape  or get  normality in  their  lives. 

We are  talking  of  an animal that  has  20% brain  capacity,  ten percent  more  than humans wich  makes  them  more  sensitive  and vulnerable to the mental  trauma  of  being  captive. If you were  living  like  an orca in captivity  would  you  like  it? 

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Shippochan1000 In reply to LordVaderNihilus [2020-01-02 15:30:31 +0000 UTC]

I agree with you, people have different opinions and that is alright. However i have a lot of literature and scientific studies from independent experts who are not tied to the animal right industry or Loro Parque/Seaworld in any way. They were made with wild orca  populations around the world and state completely different facts

1. The Average life span for males is 30 years and for females 50 years. For the females in captivity there is room to improve, but most of the recent deaths a seaworld are rooting back into illnesses that were caused in the past when they did not know how to care for them properly, but time has changed. Take the bottlenose dolphin for example: 2 decades ago most of them were dying earlier than their wild counterparts (average lifespan for wild bottlenose dolphins is 19 Years). Nowadays most of them  outlive their wild counterparts by decades. With orcas it will be the same.

In the 12 years loro Parque keeps orcas just 1 had died. It was a young calf. Orca calf mortality in the wild range from 50%-90% depending on population.

2. Most  females in the wild mature at around 10-12 Years and get the first calf between 11 and 14 years. As always the are some exceptions, rarely the mature earlier than that or later. Miscarriage can happen in captivity and in the wild. Females of the population at the coast of seattle for example are known to have miscarriage about 90% of all detected pregnancies.

3. If you know so much about orcas you would know that most are specialized on a type of food. Some pods Hunt seals, whales or sharks, some hunt nearly exclusively fish. It does not matter what type an orca eats as long as it has all the things ( fat, protein, calories, minerals and vitamins) in the right amount. The orcas at loro parque get a wide varity of fish and squid which is restaurant quality and MSC certificated. As I stated above all orcas that have a healthy weight.

4. I stated before that the orcas at loro parque have lower stress levels that wild orcas. Thats a fact proven by independent studies. Orcas do not swim this long distances for fun, they need to do that to survive. If an orca finds everything it needs ( a mate, food) it will stay there till the food source perished and will then move on.  All orcas at loro parque are born in captivity and you can clearly hear them speak to each other. The only one not doing that is Morgan because she is deaf. Also you tell me how intelligent they are, they can learn sign language, dont you think they can learn other orca language the too.

5. That's not proven, both orcas in the wild or captivity get sick, thats normal. Its not known how many die out there, most of the time you don't find the bodies and just a smal fracture of wild orcas are permanetly observed.  Rake marks are normal, in fact if a researcher finds a wild orca who does not have them they do worry about it because it means that this individual has no social contact to other orcas. Arguing is also normal. We humans do it too. I also did see plenty of pictures of wild orcas, washed ashore with teeth worn down to the gum. There is also an interesting study to that theme.

6. Also not proven. The only thing proven is that both show the same behavior.

Its true that dolphins in general have a bigger brain capacity but that does not mean the are more sensitiv to something lika that. in fact there are most likely quite a few animals who surpass humans in brain capacity. There is just not enough research done. A pig for example is as intelligent as a human. But you cant compare a human, dolphin or pig. They all developed different, they use their brain differently, feeling emotions in a different way.

By the way, our oceans are dying. Orca numbers drop rapidly because of us humans. Overfishing, pollution, climate change and noise pollution are killing the whole ecosystem. Loro parque at least slaps the horrible truth in their visitors face, demanding change.

Irresponsible whale watching is also disturbing them. Orcas leave their home territory and stop hunting because of this.

And yes i would to be against living like that with free health insurance, all ne food i need a patner and friends.

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Lunchi In reply to Shippochan1000 [2020-02-23 23:36:43 +0000 UTC]

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LordVaderNihilus In reply to Shippochan1000 [2020-01-02 18:37:52 +0000 UTC]

Still, captivity doesnt beat the wild 

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Siphiri In reply to Shippochan1000 [2019-12-17 17:45:17 +0000 UTC]

I am not a zoological researcher with a degree, but from what many other highly qualified researchers say I know that the care for those animals is the best, of course, they are worth millions for the facilities in which they are held, and a lot of the trainers truly care for them. However, the size of tanks in which they are held is nowhere close to being sufficient to what they truly need and the distances they swim in the wild, which makes them bored and their fins drop during to spending so much time out of the water when looking for trainers.
In the wild there have been no events of orca deadly attacks to humans, while in captivity there have been many, I suppose that should mean something. Due to the small size of their cage, and a few forced interactions, those animals can become highly stressed. It does not mean they are always stressed, especially baby orcas are probably never stressed, but there are events in which stress occur and it is both harmful for the orcas and the humans who interact with them. In the wild, stress is not caused by the space which they are confined to, however, it is often caused by hunger while they look for food, but that is an absolutely normal form of stress which orcas have dealt with for millions of years and to which they are built to handle.

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Lunchi In reply to Siphiri [2020-02-23 23:47:52 +0000 UTC]

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Shippochan1000 In reply to BluegirlWoomy [2019-12-17 16:29:15 +0000 UTC]

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