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Thiefswipe — Obviously Evil
Published: 2010-07-23 20:55:42 +0000 UTC; Views: 2407; Favourites: 5; Downloads: 12
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So yeah, the hero just trusts this character right off the bat.Now kids, if you find a person like this, do NOT follow his example. Call the real wandering heroes of the realm immediately!
Of course, I'd say there is a pretty good chance of Cirice here getting converted to the side of good. For one, she's female, and for conversion prospects that always helps. Heck, we let Nythera off with nothing but a slap on the wrist after she
A. Killed Warlic and ate his magic
B. Is responsible for a full scale invasion on falconreach
C. Challenged the very gods of Lore for their powers
If I had my way, Nythera would be... removed ._. But I don't, and now we have to follow the brat on her own questline. Annoying doesn't begin to cover the character, especially since everyone has forgotten she's bloody deicidal. And worse, she hasn't learned a dang thing! Grah... and now she's some sort of chosen one of the void, which really irks me off because it's part of the backstory I had made up for Nocturn. She's stealin my story!
Other than the really, really REALLY annoying character, that quest saga is well made.
Back on topic, I will be stabbing Cerice soon if she dosn't redeem, since no villains in this game have the sense to just, say, poison my health potions or something. Then again, that'd pry just do 5 damage per turn and get canceled when I leave combat, so maybe they are onto something.
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Comments: 117
It's DA only, which is likely why. Dragonsgrasp, to be specific. :/
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Hm, you have some good points, but I'm kind of skeptical that Circe will turn good. If she does, I hope there will be an option to punch her out anyway given what she helped do >.>;
I've only just gotten back to Dragonfable, but Nythera's war against the elementals just got me kinda miffed at all the non-heroic characters involved. She honestly tried to kill Warlic and acted like a spoiled brat when she got his power, but I honestly wound up rooting for her when the "gods" stepped in. They attacked all of Falconreach just because of one spoiled half-dragon?! And then threatened you at every turn when you tried to negotiate with them.
Frankly, I was actually inclined to view them more harshly than Nythera. The elemental lords are supposed to be better than that, but they pretty much sank to -below- Nythera's level and I wanted to give Warlic a hug for blasting their egos to smithereens when they got uppity. (so much for "gods"... 
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She won't. I've beaten the questline. Well, she kinda went half way as an antivillain. You'll see if you haven't already.
I was rooting for the gods all the way
...Have you perchance looked up ancient polytheistic religions? They knew their gods were a bunch of hard drinking twats who considered morality beneath them. Heh. But still. As long as they curb stomp Nythera, they're okay in my book. Not like the war hurt anyone. At all. 'Cept nythera.
...does anyone get exactly why they attack falconreach though? I mean, you could use this army to maybe attack the person who's insulted you rather than a random village.
'Sides, if you're going to hate the elemental gods for this, then you have to hate Warlic too- remember he planned the entire thing. It's just that no one cares about his part in it because falconreach gets steamrolled by an army like every two days anyways. And it's not like anyone died. No one ever dies when people launch wars against falconreach. <.<
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I have, I beat it a day or two ago. I'm not sure if I could really call what she did anti-villainous. She was baisically being cheated out of her pay by a complete monster, so she left him to a well-deserved beating...probably so she could find someone to pay her for kicking puppies
Yes, and I hate pretty much any "god" that was like that. I'm not so sure about people not getting hurt, but if that's true it was only because the people defending the town were totally freaking awesome; not due to a lack of trying on the elementals.
Exactly , hence why I hate them. As far as I can tell, they sent their armies to attack Falconreach just because it happened to be where she was. Frankly, that kind of thing sounds like something Nythera would do in the middle of a temper-tantrum, so to me they're arguably worse than her. I mean, there's like 8 of them for starters >.>;
Really? I thought he just let her think she killed him so she could be put back in her place before she got REALLY desperate and tried something even worse. It's been ages since I did that quest, though...
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I suppose.
Man, i don't know where the heck frotscyth even got the idea he was being discriminated against. Has he been paying attention to the world he lives in? Racism levels are at nigh zero. Unless sneevils count, and even then we help them out and they help us all the time.
Well said gods are saving the world by investing their power in the elemental orbs. Net gain as far as kharma goes. XP And they aren't A-holes personality wise. Just a little bit elitist, as is probably their preogative for constantly sustaining the existance of everything.
The gods crimes
Acting as the law would to murderers
Proprety damage
Nythera's crimes
Premeditated murder
Theft (crystal orb)
Soul stealing (walric)
Assault (on the elementals she talked to while young)
Assault (on whoever else she attacked)
Attempted deicide
Starting a war
Proprety damage
Let's just say she's lucky no one wants to mess with warlic.
When your hero calls out warlic for planning the whole thing, he goes "people could have died" to which warlic responded "I trusted you keep them safe" So no one died.
And it's not like nythera even learned her lesson. If you play her next questline she's still a brat. At least the gods decided to back down, then forgive and forget.
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Hm, well, I doubt Aisha was actively plotting genocide while posing as their queen way back then, but from the sound of things and the fact that her subjects didn't seem to have a problem with their orders could hint that relations with frost elves and humans are/were kind of...frosty. (bwahahah!)
That or he was just playing the race card to avoid having to admit he was a bitter, envious little monster who should never have been allowed to set foot in Dragongrasp
They attacked Falconreach for no good reason and blasted you with elements when you tried to talk to them. That's pretty A-holish to me, and just happening to be born with the job of supporting everything doesn't give them free reign to do whatever. Especially since they can be pulverised without much consequence.
Eh, I'd say that list of crimes is much more even. The Elemental lords didn't do anything until she insulted them (so they didn't care about all the crap she was pulling, just her denting their pride), sent an army after Falconreach for no good reason (attempted murder of everyone living there), and equal guilt of starting the war since...well, it was their army that was attacking the place to begin with.
Ah right, forgot that line. Well he really lucked out there, then. Given the alternate bad ending you can get with Xan, I'd say that the hero make sure even he doesn't escape karma.
I guess? I'm not defending her at all, but it's her series of quests; the spotlight just happens to be on her instead of them. The lords only fell back because Warlic kicked the crap out of them, I don't really have any reason to think their personalities have improved anymore than her's has.
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lol. Normal elves haven't even shown up yet. I wonder if they will for the nature orb chain? I kinda hope so.
Punz! THIEFSWIPE SMASH!
It doesn't change the fact that they didn't kill anyone, and nythera did, in addition to being at least 50% responsble for the non-violent war. Charge them with assault and Nythera with murder.
Sides, nythera screamed that the gods were as nothing compared to her. If they didn't show, she pry would have tried to bring them down some other way.
If anyone is to blame, it's us. Why didn't we just let the elementals come on in and take Nythera? We didn't have to fight them.
...You know, for one so unwilling to "abuse" his power by say, stopping bad guys, (like Xan who really wants to kill him) Warlic sure seemed okay with pwnzoring the gods. I consider that much more power abuse than going to trounce seppy. Just a thought that has little bearing on the argument.
You realize Nythera only stopped and ressurected warlic when the gods kicked the crap out of her? If it weren't for them, warlic would still be dead and nythera would be ruling lore with an iron fist. Your point that the gods only stopped when warlic pwned them is returned with double strength by Nythera.
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I don't see why not. Personally, I hope they're good guys. I mean, arrogant xenophobes gets really old after awhile, the sand elves are dead except for Zhoom, and the frost elves...well...yeah >.>;
Oh, I think you're misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm kind of miffed at the elemental lords because they sent their army to attack Falconreach instead of Nythera and their behavior when you tried to ask them to stop. It was clearly intentional, and I don't see any explanation other than them just throwing a temper tantrum. I mean, there is no way that I'm buying that everyone put all that effort into fighting off an army that just wanted to use a portal to reach the brat >.>;
Yeah, Warlic's power-level really confuses and irritates me sometimes. Especially in AQ. The best explanation I can come up with is that he feels guilty for doing that to Xan and he can't actually beat Sepulcher, but...well, I think you can see the problems with that. Admitedly, the entire point of the elemental lords was that they were actually not all that tough unless they ganged up on someone, but... =/
Really? I need to watch that scene again. I thought Warlic just faked his death given how insanely powerful he's supposed to be and how calm he was. Still, the elemental lords did pick a fight with Warlic right after Nythera was stripped of her power, so...*shrugs*
Really, the debate's getting a little old since it doesn't really matter as far as I can tell. We both agree that Nythera's a pain in the backside, to put it mildly
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I always liked the traditional elves. Sorry, but I'm a fuge nerd for tolkien-esq fantasy cliches XD Although, oddly, I didn't like the actual book. But I digress.
Didn't nythera teleport to the falconreach guardian tower? I'm pretty sure that's why they attackd falconreach. We really should have just let them steamroll her from the start.
Warlic sorta faked it. He got hit with the potion, but only because he let himself be hit, then nythera dragged him into the orb like he was planning fopr her to. So while he did "die" it was only because he wanted to.
The elemental lords did not pick a fight with warlic. They just wanted at Nythera. Warlic started that fight by defending her.
And let's not forget that the elemental gods do care about the world- they saved it twice before. I got the feeling they, in the very least, thought they were looking at the bigger scope of this entire mess. One town destroyed to defeat an insane half dragon with dillusions of godhood? If she succeeded, it would have been worse than falconreach's destruction.
Yeah, but arguing is often invigorating. 
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Well, that's what I'm getting at. If the elementals really did just want to march into the tower to reach Nythera, then no one would have had any reason to fight them. As it is, it seems like they really were just planning to burn Falconreach to the ground for no good reason other than they were angry. Like I said, the attack on the town instead of just Nythera seemeed deliberate since when your character went to talk the lords out of it, they just talked down to you and then stooped to blasts. No "OMG! I'm so sorry, I didn't realize my army was attacking the town." Just...that >.>;
Ah, okay. I knew that a fair bit of it was part of his...plan, but I wasn't sure if he died or what.
Right, but how did they word it again? I recall them still being pretty darn jerky about it.
How have they saved the world? I know the orbs are tied to them, but just existing doesn't give them kudos in my book. I mean, they just need to be...intact. I still maintain they could have dealt with her far, far better than they did. Like I said before, they had no reason whatsoever to attack the whole freaking town! We would have let them have her if they didn't start whining and throwing their armies around like...well, like Nythera would have done with Warlic's power if she wasn't stopped.
That is why I'm mad at them. It wasn't a situation where they would have to sacrifice one town for the good of the world; they just came across as pompous brats who were mainly just upset that she had insulted them.
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They never touched the town, nor burned it, nor anything. They were just trying to get to nythera, hiding in the guardian tower. We stopped them for some reason.
Yep
I guess they were jerks, but nythera's twice as much of a jerk so eh, lesser of two jerks.
They saved the world by delibrately lower their own power and putting it into the orbs- the orbs contain the mojority of their power now. It's all explained in the new willoshire questline. The elemental lords basically removed a great deal of their power to put into the orbs so humans (guardians, specifically) could use them to fight back against an army of elementals before they were brought to heel by the lords in the aftermath.
Ultimaely, my argument rests on our heroes fighting the elementals for no good reason, and yours rests on them deliberately attacking falconreach rather than just trying to move their elementals to the tower to pwn Nythera.
And when you say they were angry because she insulted them, nythera did worse. When she went to the elementals via warlics command, they talked about how neat their element was. Then she killed them because she's a snotty brat. Then she accused them of being mean to her, hence her motivation for challenging the elemental lords, all despite the fact she had already killed the elemental underlings who she talked to. What kind of logic is that?
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Because they were clearly attacking the town. Like I said, it was clearly deliberate since when you went to talk to the elemental lords about it, they blew you off; sometimes literally. It wasn't an accident or misunderstanding since they could have cleared it up and gotten their armies peacefully to Nythera if they wanted to.
*shrugs* Well whatever works. I'm seeing them as about equal right now.
Right because, stupidity jokes aside, I really doubt everyone in Falconreach would be dumb enough to accidentily fight to protect freaking Nythera; and the Elemental Lords apparently knew their forces were attacking Falconreach and just started thwacking you when you tried to negociate. (Gah, almost makes me wish -we- could have just taken them down one by one and then rubbed it in Nythera's face T_T)
Oh? I thought Warlic explictly said that she just startled them and they disipated? Hence how a little girl who's had her magic sealed away could "beat" elementals that had given the hero a decent fight quite a few levels back.
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Eh, whatever. Since no one died or was even permentatly hurt and there was basically no damage to the town, I really don't see the big deal about them declaring war. I just know I'd rather give Nythera a punch in the jaw than the elemntal lords anyday.
Yeah, the motivations of all sides in that war were pretty weird.
What's the difference between disapation and death for an elemental? 'Sides, I'd say that was just monster scaling. It's not like AE was going to make a good amount of new enemies just for that chain. Heck, Ash can pwn master necromancers in his storyline, and sneevils that were a fight at level 1 are still a fight now.
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Well to me, the intent can matter just as much as the actual effects sometimes. Still, whatever. There's nothing that says people can't have differing oppinions.
Yeah.. =/
The way Warlic said it, they just temporarily faded away and then re-appeared when she was gone. He made it quite clear that she didn't kill them and they most likely would have broken her in half if they were serious. There's monster scaling, and then there's just being demeaning to anyone who was still making runs in that dungeon. (Oh, you're having trouble with the boss there? Well guess what: a little spoild brat of a half-dragon can wipe the floor with those elementals that keep handing your mage his onw staff! what do you think of that?!) See?
Yeah, but if I recall; he didn't do to well until he had the daughter of the elemental lady of light with him and gained the title of archknight. Ash was more of a young adventurer who had finally come into his own then a spoiled brat of a half-dragon with her magic sealed away >.>;
Yeah, the sneevil thing is pretty much just scaling, but it does beg the question of why you'd bother going back to fight them. Not to mention that you'd probably wipe the floor with them far more easily than before given that you probably have far more abilities unlocked by then, so...
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Sure, just like Nythera's intent to plunge the world into elemental chaos and kill the gods. But yeah, agree to disagree and all that.
The elementals never hand the mage his own staff. Elementals are easy XD Sides, the hero beats armies of them, she only had to beat one, and as a half dragon pry has increased strength or something. I'd say coupled with general monster scaling, those add up to a plausible kill. Not that AE will ever actually use the word "kill" or "death" or anything like that.
Actally, that quest begs the question of why the elementals try to kill us on sight if they are rational, thought-capable beings.
Nah, he beat down three master necromancers with their entire guard force laid to waste while she was still frozen solid. At least in the original he did, I dunno about the DF version.
Lots of quests have you fight sneevils at high levels. like the ninja and pirate quests, the gnome quests, ect.
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A player-controlled mage who's suitably low-leveled? I don't know about that, but it would be able to put up a decent fight at the very least. Comparing the hero to a child isn't a good idea since we/they're supposed to be an extraordinarly powerful individual; so of course beating down armies of elementals is within their abilities. I'm pretty sure just being born a half dragon doesn't give you that much power, and even if it does; Nythera had it sealed away by her parents at that point. If that doesn't convince you, I can just go back and replay that quest.
Well...thought-capable, anyway. After the elemental war fiasco, I'm skeptical that they're all that rational.
Well, since the DF version is now the "real" version, it didn't happen that way. I'm not sure about the power-level of the necromancers, but they definitely seemed to be beneath Noxus; though the last one got a pretty big power boost near the end. Ash managed to beat him once he became a fully-fledged hero and had the daughter of (I think?) the elemental lady of light backing him up. (IE: the princess)
Yes, however at those higher levels you have a much larger arsenal of moves to work with. You can block, stun, and double-critical the suckers instad of just tapping "attack" over and over. Seems to make it much easier than before to me.
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We're more or less just adventurers. The wars prove that, where only with all the thousands of us working together we fight them off.
I'm not reffering to her dragon magic, I'm talking about the simple fact that she is a half dragon granting increased physical abilities. The little kicks and punches she threw might look weak, but half dragons are pry super strong just by having dragon muscles or something.
Heh, Those elementals were under the control of the elemental lords, so eh. The whole of Lore is crazy and let's just settle for that XP
Wait wait wait, who determines what is the "real" version?
Nah, he still beats a necro without her in the beggining. So it's all scaling.
Yes, but the sneevils are still roughly the same challenge they were at the low levels. They compensate for your higher move arsenal with numbers, damage output and hp. I mean, replay a begginig quest with a low level character then re-play... i dunno, the gnome sneevil reinforcement quest with a high level hero. Their health bars will be pretty similar, as far as ratio goes.
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Uh, not really. It just proves that our characters can't wipe out entire armies in one blow. Not to mention all the remarks from freaking Sepulcher that our heroes are indeed quite powerful even compared to other adventurers, and the Christmas war that's on-going. Unless you want me to believe that the Golemancer somehow enslaved an entire army of heroes the same way he did to our characters >.>; (Moglins are medics, not fighters, and theonly other person there is Icemaster Yeti)
I'm pretty sure that any hypothetical half dragon physical abilities wouldn't be that significant without training, not to mention that she's still a little a girl. Honestly, I think people these days place WAY too much emphasis on innate powers and think just being born a certain way makes you awesome >.>;
Well, considering the DF one is essentially the completed story, I'm going with that one. And yes, he beats -A- necromancer in the begining without her help. A necromancer who was desperate to get more power because he wasn't a master yet. Ash got trounced when that same necromancer got a power boost and it wasn't until he became an archknight and had the princess remember that she could wield light that he got his revenge. So it's not scaling at all. In fact, there's a point where your character comes in to help Ash and you do get to see how many orders of magnitude they are over him unless you're level 1 or something.
Yeah, but that's the thing: you don't have to deal with them just by spamming the attack button over and over. you can stun and critical the sneevils to death, thus making it easier than it was before even though they don't just have 40 HP or so. Not to mention the bandit camp and all the other quests that aren't scaled to you.
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Sepulchur could curb stomp us at any moment if his master wanted him to. As of right now, his master wants us alive for some reason, I assume because of our hand in the prophecy and whatnot.
What's wrong with that? I've always loved lineage powers. Wether its magic in the blood or being born with the spirit of dragon within you, I think bloodline can ligitimately be both a way for a character to understandably gain power and a good reason for them to set of on whatever adventure they are required to, be it fullfilling the destiny they were born into or upholding their noble/evil heritage, ect. ect.
So, wait, you think being a half dragon provides no physical benifit whatsoever? Despite the fact that half of you is a giant 40 ft fire-breathing lizard made of biceps?
So what? Even an apprentice necromancer is a bigger threat than the elementals nythera fought. But because of scaling, ash can beat his and nythera can beat hers.
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Exactly, that's my point. SEPULCHER, one of the most powerful characters in Dragonfable that we know of, actually regards our characters as powerful. Not enough to single-handidly stop his plans, but definitely enough to give him a very good fight down the road. (Of course, he has yet to engage us in personal combat, but still)
Well, it's a mixture of just favoring actual working to get power and the fact that way too many fictional things out there seem to just give characters insane amounts of power baisically for being born lucky. I'm not saying I hate being born gifted is bad at all, just that them relying solely on birth-given powers rubs me the wrong way.
Uh, no? I never said that, I just meant that being a half dragon alone probably wouldn't let you toss around boulders, and that Nythera was a little girl; so her strength couldn't have been that significant even then.
...What? Okay, first it depends on how you define "apprentice" and secondly saying that Ash only won against the super-powered necromancer because of scaling is kind of an insult to the entire point of that story. And yes, I do agree with you on the Nythera thing, but only in the sense that the elementals were scaled back because they weren't giving it their all. They didn't die, they were startled and didn't want to fight a spoiled child and disipated after a bit. Warlic himself said that Nythera didn't kill them when she was bragging about how she beat them up. (If she did kill them, it would have completely ruined the point he was trying to make about why you don't pick on elementals when you're bored)
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I supose, but we're only skilled people. I mean, we're not one of the extrodinarally powerful indaviduals of lore, a la warlic or seppy.
I adore those storylines because they always provide such great conflict over the hero's responsibility and his personal wants. I mean, Nythera was a good character. I want to stab her eyes out, but she was well written.
Why shouldn't it? Dragons can toss boulders, and this is fantasy, the most blatantly unrealistic genre there is! At least then there is a reason why a character can slay so many foes when in the real world as a non born-to-power character, he would have a 50-50 chance of death each and every fight.
Call me a cynic, but the power of heart doesn't exactly enable you to slay foes of much greater strength. Then again, this is happy lala idealism land, so whatever.
wait point was warlic trying to make? That 10 years later you'll call up the gods for some reason and challenge them to a smack down which will end in your humiliatingly effortless defeat?
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I beg to differ. If our characters aren't already up there, they're going to be sooner or later. Warlic's fluctuating power level is something that's annoyed me, mainly in Adventure Quest, but given that there's an alternate bad ending to the story where they confirm our characters can beat Warlic...yeah. As for Seppy, we haven't really gotten a chance to fight him yet. I mean, he proved Fluffy could beat our dragon in a fight (which might not be saying much considering how crappy the dragon rider armor is in terms of skills), but we have yet to see how he'd fair against use. Especially without the Doomblade proping him up...
Uh, fantasy doesn't mean you can just do whatever the hell you want without any consistancy or reason? And again, Nythera was a HALf-dragon CHILD. Last time I checked, it takes a somewhat older full-blooded dragon to throw boulders, so... >.>;
Well there's always "right makes might", which actually does have some baisis to work on. I mean, it won't allow Ash to take down Sepulcher all on his own in a stand-up fight, but having that extra determination to win isn't something to sneeze at.
That Nythera should have some respect for the elementals rather than thinking she cold effortlessly beat them. That while individually they weren't all that great, getting them angry enough too drop everything just to team against you is absolute, suicidal foolishness. (And it was...well, at least until Warlic blew a hole in that Aesop by spontaniously developing enough power to just clobber them all >.>; )
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Heh, it seems like he got weaker in AQ. I came so close to beating him in the wizard games when I still played. Although, there is actually a heck of a lot of implications that the AQ warlic is actually nythera in disguise. Even in AQ itself, where the loremaster almost calls warlic nythera. He goes "Nyth-... Warlic."
Haha, sure it doesn't, but the laws of the fantasy world don't have to match ours at all.
It really doesn't. Evil is just as determined, if not more, to fullfil its obligations, primarally since their goals are directly entwined with their personal benifit. Extra determination is not only present on both sides, (if the reverse, one could assume they wouldn't be klling each other over matters in the first place) but it won't let you resist even the simplest and least of stab wounds. The pain alone would see to that.
If you honestly think that being good somehow helps you fight better than say, hate, you'ld be completely wrong. Any emotion or influence that drives one to kill/fight is equally strong. Actually, the negative emotions would be even stronger, because then you'ld stoop to anything to see your goals through.
In fiction, heroes will be convienently never confronted with underhanded tactics or the need to stoop to something themselves in order to win. feh.
Yeah, apparently the moral of the story is "if you're going to be a snotty brat who challenges the gods for power, make sure you do it under the protection of a omnipotent wizard with a bizzar and fluctiating moral code."
spleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Well, that's the thing that I call foul on. My character was pretty darn powerful bacn in AQ and narrowly managed to beat him during the games. It was an awesome, awesome fight. During one of the newer story arcs, however, you get stuck in a series of unwinnable boss battles with the captains of a villain for...some reason. During the climax of the war, you fight the female witch one and wind up getting your butt kicked, and -then- her buddy shows up as well to gloat. Warlic comes along and -threatens- the two into running away with their tails between their legs. So...yeah. Apparently Warlic and I are neck and neck in gameplay terms, but when the cutscenes roll around he's capable of making unbeatable bosses wet themselves >.>;
Gah, I mean maybe it's just my trauma against insanely overpowered "plot" NPc characters showing up and humiliating the PCs, but it's incredibly frustrating!
No, but they do have laws, and I have yet to see one that says half dragon children are as strong as the hulk. Hell, if that was the case, Nythera would have been better off just punching everything to death in her story! Gah, seriously, do you want me to just get that quote from her childhood story to prove my point to you?
Yeah, but generally speaking fighting save everything you know and love is a better motivator than fighting to make a quick bag of gold. As for the hate versus determination to do what's right thing, one adds blind rage into the equation if you're not careful (which is REALLY bad, unless you're in a fantasy verse where being a totally unskilled berserker is valid...somehow), while the other purely gives you the extra mental strength you may need to force yourself back up again or ignore the strain a little longer, etc.
Honestly, being willing to kick the dog isn't necessarily an advantage in itself depending on how you define it. Indianna Jones was fine with just gunning down the swordsman, Han shot first (WHOOO! Take that Lucas! >
I'll admit that a little extra determination won't compensate for the extra personal power a villain may have gained by not having any morals, aswsuming those plans actually worked and didn't just blow up in their face. However, the hero usually just has all of the people they actually helped backing them up, along with the rest of the forces of good since they actually care about each other, and finally all the people said villain probably pissed off because he screwed in an attempt to gain more power. I think that sort of thing was best illustrated in that first transformers move where Megatron just curbstomped Optimus because he didn't care about things like collateral damage and civilian casualties. When he started mocking Optimus for wasting his power fighting for the weak, the "weakling" humans launched an armor-piercing missle at his back that proved to be -very- effective and he wound up being finished by a teenage boy. Yeah...
Urgh, pretty much. I'm wondering if that's supposed to be a call back to Warlic's original DnD incarnation since he was apparently...er...questionable in terms of morality. Regardless, that's yet another reason why I really don't like him all that much >.>;
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Yeah. Warlic's power is pretty random. But hey, I guess a game that runs on only a few one time fees can't devote everything to consistancy. Especially given how big the worlds are starting to get.
Wait wait wait... Hold on a sec, back in her childhood stories, she just fought normal elementals right? Not the elemental lords? Because they looked like normal elementals.
"A quick bag of gold"? How many villains are actually fighting for a quick bag of gold anymore? And no, anyone who raises an army to fight a good guy is going to be just as determined as the good guy himself, or he wouldn't have bothered raising an army. If he is honestly that invested, then he is NOT going to let it all go to hell because he doesn't care. The villain does care about everything they do. Heck, given the amount of reluctant heroes, they probably care more. And any allies the hero may have gained rely on the assumtion that the villain has no people skills (a fact which is NEVER true in any realistic setting. You don't run an army if you don't know how to convince people to support you) and that the villain isn't keeping his army close for some unknown reason. In addition, blind rage is a heck of alot better than determination for resiting a wound because it adds adrenalin to the equation, which is more or less the only biological way to ignore pain.
Oh hell yes it is an advantage. If sacrificing tenthousand victems gives you a powerboost, then that would be an easy way to defeat everything. You have just been caught in a painfully obvious trap- in fction, these powerboosts NEVER matter in the end. Even though the hero hasn't done anything like that, he is still, for reasons completely unexplained, able to defeat the villain who has. This is exactly what I'm saying here- in fiction, the hero NEVER has to stoop to anything, and no matter what depraved ritual the villain completes, it ultimately amounts to nothing for absolutely no good reason.
See, now that's another cliche trap. All an evil person's plans always blow up in their face. Try to harness he power of a thousand trapped souls? Souls consume you. Try to absorb an energy feild? Energy bruns you alive. Try to gain control of a genie? Genie escapes and kills you. If villains were depicted at all realistically, they would have the good sense to research the effects of their plans and distinctly NOT do the ones that end with them being torn to bits in some mockery of karma. If it were depicted at all realistically, karma would not exist, the villais plan's would work, and the villain would win because of it. Now, if said plan had an actual, logical weakness which an outside force could exploit, or if the hero had recived the same powerboost, then there is justification for defeat. But in fiction, it doesn't work that way. The hero never has to stoop and will win anyways, despite having no powerboost. it makes no sense and only exists on the rampancy of the cliche that inner strength somehow translates to outer strength. This is of course, total and complete bull.
And as to your transformers example, did said teenage boy actually have any logical reason to know how to fire said missile? Hell, for that matter, we have tons of missiles. The transformers shouldn't even be a threat if they work that well.
I dunno, maybe he's supposed to be one of those omnipotent figures that just does what they want. I mean, with that much power, you've got to have reached some conclusions about morality that lesser mortals have not reached. Maybe said conclusions include going easy on heroes during games and not killing your worst enemies.
Yeah, this doesn't make much sense on second thought. If I was omnipotent, I would layeth the smackdown on all the assholes I've met over the ages. Then I'd go find more and beat them up too, until there were no more assholes left in the world. And everyone would live happily ever after. Cept the assholes. But they don't deserve to.
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I guess, but it's still pretty eregious and annoying when they write him so that he's practically omnipotent. It kind of causes plot holes, minimizes the PCs, and it just all around annoying. >.>;
They were normal elementals, what are you getting at?
I wasn't speaking literally, I was just using that as an example to indicate that most villains tend to be, you know, self-serving. Their motivations tend to vary, but generally speaking a truly evil character is acting out of either ego or something else self-serving. They're certaintly invested and motivated, but I'm pretty sure that fighting for something larger than "just" yourself is a somewhat better motivator by definition. I mean, there's a reason propoganda is tailored to try to give the people listening to it the moral high ground. Also, you're acting like the heroes wouldn't have an army as well, considering the sheer number of people said villain would be likely pissing off judging from your statement below.
Uh, not really? Short of literal omnipotence, a boost to personal power probably isn't going to help you much when you have an army of heroes and th entire world bearing down on you for massacering so many people just for your own gratification. Frankly, I think you're generalizing. I can think of quite a few stories where the power difference was noticable, it's just the villain let it go to their head and made a really bone-headed move because they thought that boost made them invincible. Some stories may have the hero just brute force the villain into submission, but quite a few more just involve trickery or taking advantage of something stupid the villain did...like totally losing their cool to blind rage and not using their brain. (hence why I say blind rage is a terrible thing to rely on)
You're generalizing again. For startes, some of those plans you've outlined are risky in and of themselves (What the hell did the villain EXPECT a thousand trapped and tortured souls would do to him if they managed to slip free for even a moment? Maybe there's a REASON nobody tried to harness the extremely powerful energy field before he got to it...) It's not a "mockery of karma", it's just their own actions biting them in the rear. Also raw power isn't everything and your dismisal of inner strength honestly tempts me to just noth bother with this at all. I don't suppose you've heard of Ghandi? You know, the guy who kinda sorta helped free India by sticking to his ideals of non-violence for justice no matter what?
You midunderstand. The MILITARY fired the missles, which blew the crap out of Megatron and the boy happened to finish him off with a small piece of transformer tech. (And I do mean -finish-, Megatron was a goner even without the child). Frankly, that was the point Megatron was too busy being an arrogant bastard and dismissing the race that the good guys were trying to protect as weak and useless, and he paid for it when that race ran to Prime's aid with armor-piercing missles that proved to be MUCH more effective than the ones fired earlier.
Pretty much, not to mention it renders most of Xan's story pointless. (Why did our character need to do anything if Warlic can apparently pulverise him with a snap of his fingers? >.>; )
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Yeah. I mean, its good for the PCs to realize they are not the greatest thing on earth every once in a while, but there are better ways to implement this realization.
Alright, then yeah. I maintain that she could have beaten them within the laws of the world of lore. (in other words, ignoring the fact that punching a fireball probably does not end well anywhere else.)
Thousands of villains fight for a cause they belive greater than themself. Be it their god, their vengance for an ancestor they feel was wronged, ect ect, villains are just as complex in their motivations as the heroes. To say every villain is ultimately self serving is generalizing like you so accuse me of doing.
The heroes may or may not have an army, but do they ever let that army fight the villain? No. Not once. Never once has a hero allowed their army to actually beat the villain through numbers. The hero is always the one to take down the villain, who is always supposed to be more powerful.
Somethign that bugs me is your mention that because the villain will "piss off people from his actions" the hero will gain many allies. This is a load of total crap. You mentioned propaganda- any competent bad guy would keep his friends from defecting and gain his allies this way, through expert lies and deception. And it's not like anyone cares what atrocities are commited in another country. I could cite hundreds of examples where other nations failed to act so long as another nation only commited atrocities within their borders and did not try to expand. Everyone is inherantly selfish this way- it is what it means to be human, to not care about those you have not met. Even you and I are slave to this law- sure, you hear about the rapist and rebels in africa, the sexism and slavery in the middle east, to say nothing of the atrocities based on religion that occur around the world to this day. You and I will never step outside to try and fix these problems, or at least, not in a way that really matters or means anything to us. We will continue our privlaged lives and remain in blissful ignorance of these issues forever. People do not care enough to act. Ever.
As such, a villain will never have to deal with unexpected enemies who have seen the atrocities he may commit. Other people just don't want to get involved, because on a national and personal scale, we are all both selfish and lazy.
Think about it- has an outside force ever once stepped in to help an oppressed people from a different community? You mentioned Ghandi, and I'll go into greater depth why his example does not counter my points later, but I will point out it was ghandi and his people alone who saved themselves. They had next to no allies in their plight.
"Their own actions biting them in the rear" is the token definition of kharma, unless you haven't noticed.
Now onto ghandi- lemme tell you something about ghandi. He was smart. Really, really smart. He looked at his situation and said "Lets see. Britain has tanks and guns and I don't. I cannot fight back with military strength" So ghandi found himself a different type of strength. He made India so unprofitable for the british through civil disobedience that it was just better off for them to drop the colony. Ghandi didn't have military strength, so he found himself the strength of greed. He exploited britain's motive and used it against them. He was smart enough to know how to fight a battle he could not win with weapons.
And just how well do you think the humans would have fared if they had actually been weak and downtrodden? You example backfires- the humans won because they had the might to ram a missile into megatron or whatever's backside, not because they're the good guys.
Hell, in modern settings, who's right matters even less because you sure as heck aren't going to get back up from a missile, no matter what kind of good cause you've got to keep fighting for.
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Well frankly, they've already done a good enough job with that via Xan and Akriloth. Both of them were enemies the PCs couldn't just beat down with brute force until they found a way to level the playing field. Warlic is just...Warlic.
And whatever. Frankly, arguing with you gets really old really quickly.
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Yeup. Two of the better ways I mentioned.
It's cause I don't ever stop until I think I've won.
NEVAR SURRENDAR!
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Yeah, well, did you ever bother replaying that mission with the elementals when Nythera was a child like a suggested?
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Oh, you know heroes. So blasted innocent...
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No kidding. I'm pretty sure a seven year old could pick out the bag guy in that picture. Wait. I look evil too. Ok, maybe not.
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Well it's painfully obvious. Look at her!
And yes, she most certaintly is. She started an avalanch and tried to kill the hero for absolutley no reason at all. And we know she stole the ice orb for some reason.
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I REALLY need to get back to plaing DF.
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Everyone does X) Wher'd you leave of at in the story?
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Well, I just logged in this weekend so I finished whatever Nythera's saga got to. Unfortuntely I am not a dragonlord so I can't go dragonsgrasp.
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Ahhh yesss. I wish they'd just forget nythera and finish up the ravenloss saga. I want my spiritweaver class!
Wait, have you played the ravenloss quests yet? You should if you haven't, they're pretty fun. Much more enjoyable than playing as the purple brat. -_-
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I have. I'm up to Silkwood park. I LOVE that place.
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Ditto! But they haven't worked on new ravenloss quests for months instead of those nythera quests. *violently stabs nythera* Okay, I'm done XD
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I wanna get her eaten by a void dragon. That'd be ironic and fun. xD
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The problem is, every time we try that, the other dragon-magic girl keeps interfearing!
I want to personally stab her in the back with my doom weapon. Or better yet, hit her in the face with a potion and steal her magic. Void magic would be pretty awesome if Nythera wasn't the one using it.
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Who, Elysia (is that even her name?) or Nythera?
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Elysia! Yeah, that's her name. Sorry, I forgot.
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You want to feed Elysia to the dragons? o_O
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No, I want to feed Nythera to the void drgons but Elysia is the one who keeps on screwing up the void dragons attempt's to enslave/kill nythera or whatever they are doing. Nythera's nearly been magicblasted by them twice now, and both times Elysia has saved her sorry hide.
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You know what I find extremely funny? I've been mentally cutting her up and feeding her to the void dragons for a few weeks now, and it turns out you seem to have been doing the same thing. XD
(Sorry for butting your conversations. I'm very bored and no one else is online. ._.
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Yeahh, I pretty much plotted her death from the moment she sent me on a quest. Brat. *violently stabs again*
And sorry for logging out just when you decided to dig through my old conversations XP
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She sent herself on that quest. XD
It's alright, it's a hobby of mine I really need to replace with something productive. lawl
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Look, my bad memory notwithstanding, I hated Nythera bery shortly after I met her. XD
Haha, no problem. I've done the same.
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