Comments: 36
Lukkijurpo [2022-05-30 01:50:03 +0000 UTC]
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Artigas [2014-04-19 21:56:29 +0000 UTC]
Very good! The throne and garment just pops in the eyes. As always, you did a great job with the composition!
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TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2014-04-20 07:53:03 +0000 UTC]
thanks man, really appreciate it. now if only i had a chair like that
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Libra1010 [2014-03-24 13:34:06 +0000 UTC]
I admit that I'm not sure how appropriate it was to place that rather long remark here, but thought it most sensible to place it not too far from the comment that played a great part in prompting it (for ease of consultation).
I will admit here and now that while this has not been inspired by any particular piece of art (it's out of my mind's eye) inspection of artistic renditions prompts me to state that Ms. Jenny Dolfen's 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' is probably closest to my mental image of the proper composition - although I think that while her inclusion of the Sons of Feanor and Fingolfin is an excellent way of providing a 'Greek Chorus' appropriate to this bloodless tragedy, they do seem to be over-egging the pudding a bit too close to the point of melodrama (I think that a greater focus on Finwe's shock would have done the trick and helped avoid giving the painting a more martial character which makes Feanor's behaviour and attire look almost appropriate); If I could draw worth a hoot, I would have placed Finwe between his sons (a little in the distance to keep Feanor the focus) but with Fingolfin turned towards us to show what HE is thinking.
Probably "Brother, I have been patient with you for too long to stop now and start something here that will bring grief to us all."
Also I think that Feanor should look a bit less appropriately-dressed; he should look like one who has armed in haste at short notice and reacted with reckless speed, but also like an individual who has the force of character and presence too avoid absurdity, no matter how inappropriate his behaviour and dress may be. His brother should look equally imposing, but more considered (the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object, not a bad metaphor for the eldest sons of Finwe in their mostly-loyal opposition).
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Libra1010 [2014-03-24 13:20:30 +0000 UTC]
Master Mohan, while ruminating on the differences between perspectives in the mind's eye view (to be precise your own very sculptural focus on the timeless expression of the individual and my own interest in seeing place, scene and time captured, possibly-documentary or just plain theatrical), as well as how they might be reconciled to produce a single whole I was reminded of your expressed interest in catching the ongoing face-off between those two very different brothers Feanor and Fingolfin.
It then occurred to me that this might be an even better subject for a STATUE, rather than a picture; a mental image began to form.
Two brothers, alike in stature yet unalike, ranged alongside one another and at odds - caught at that moment when realisation sinks in after Feanor, in his jealous love for his father and fear of losing pole position in his affections has raised blade against his own brother, setting point against his chest pushed to the tipping-point of paranoid madness, but not yet beyond, by his obsessive dread of loss and the poetic passion which invests all his doings.
The Spirit of Fire himself stands fully-armed, yet likely not in his full splendour or in proper order - having come in a great rush to bring what he fears to be a brewing coup to a dramatic halt, he might well be wearing smith's garb under that high helmet and have carried his sword in hand, not in scabbard; his pose betrays the almost instinctive, nature of his sword-flourish - not afraid, but defensive, as if he expects his own brother to be the tool through which the world deprives him of all that he has been born to or built with his own hands (as it took his own mother from him, so he expects it to take everything else unless he keeps up his guard and a fierce watchfulness).
His expression hints at his own surprise that things have come thus far, that this is NOT what he planned, but speaks volumes of his determination to back down from nothing, EVER (that determination and his own jealous awareness of his inheritance and fears of losing everything producing the half-command, half-threat that he is about to speak).
Fingolfin stands alongside him, posed on the verge of leaving, briefly fixed in place; shoulders squared, face resolutely set against quarrelling, one foot forward yet suddenly fixed in place mid-step by the point of that terrible blade at his breast, his neck-muscles suddenly rigid with tension - one hand instinctively clenches into a fist, as if some part of him wants nothing more than to grab Feanor and feed him the weapon with which he has defamed their house (a blade which I imagine is straight and simple and single-edged, like a single bar of steel which suddenly struck it's maker as fit for the talon of a mighty beast, more than fit to arm him against the world).
His face attempts careful neutrality yet still speaks volumes; more of dismay than fear (but not unafraid), deeply unimpressed that his brother has allowed himself to sink this low and determined to give him not the least excuse to either cause further distress to their father or think himself the victor here (enduring steadiness amounting to utter fearlessness in the face of that poetic passion which mounts up ever closer to the point of madness).
Think of it as as a perfect showcase for the Dionysian Man at odds with Apollonian (with Apollo refraining from clouting Dionysus only with difficulty and great forbearance); for balance one might include Finwe, dismayed at the rivalry between these two beloved sons and terrified for the sake of his second son - but still more terrified for his firstborn, who teeters so perilously on the brink of utter damnation (for the record I see Finwe as a decent elf making the best of a difficult job undertaken in tragic circumstances; not aged, but worn down by his responsibilities, by the jealous love of Feanor and a good father's love for ALL his sons - even if he loves on best, he loves the others no less - High King Finwe may perhaps be bearded, justified by his status as one of the very first of the Firstborn, as well as to emphasise his nature as a patriarch and the 'Father of Nations' in the Biblical sense).
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Libra1010 [2014-03-20 17:42:29 +0000 UTC]
master Mohan, I would like to compliment you on taking an entirely unremarkable antagonist from the Appendices and making him an individual worthy of remark in his own right (if not perhaps full-worthy of The Mark), not least thanks to your art but also due to your thoughtful development of the character in the 'Comment' section; I would also like to extend my compliments to the gentleman who commissioned you to develop these illustrations, for which he too deserves our thanks!
If I might be permitted to share a mental image which I regard as putting a fitting cap on this series of portraits; two men at the end of their tether come together - and not in friendship - at the doors of the Golden Hall, forget the Epic or the Legendary for all we see is one light head and one dark close enough to bite, two sets of hands locked together like fighting bulls with cold steel in place of horns, two fighters going at one another like the desperate men they are in a perfect microcosm of the brutal struggle for survival that has occupied this darkest of winters - and the long, bloody vendetta that will follow it, whomsoever wins out.
They might be Frealaf Hildeson and Wolf fighting not just for survival but for the rule of The Mark, they might just be two obscure characters whom only the survivor of this death-duel will remember, but whomsoever they may be, the one who falls will die and the one who stands over him will kill - so they PUSH for all they are worth, but not for long ...
I think of it as 'The Last Push' but suspect that this may be a touch melodramatic.
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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-03-21 05:46:30 +0000 UTC]
i had originally intended to conclude the "long winter" series with an image of wulf lying dead in the snow at the feet of the stone steps to meduseld, with frealaf standing at the top, bloodstained sword in hand, and the golden hall behind, it's feet still buried in drifts and it's roof hung with huge icicles. I tried making it on grey paper, like I'd done with helm and freca, so that I could use the white pencil for the snow, but the whole think got kind of messed up, so I bagged it. shame though, as I still think it would have concluded the whole series very nicely.
as an aside, I'm a big fan of that movie poster style face-off composition, with the two enemies seen closeup in profile, staring eachother down, I was thinking it'd be fun to do a piece like that featuring feanor and fingolfin, perhaps during their forced reconciliation in manwe's halls, or at the moment of violence that got feanor banished from tirion, or, as I've mentioned before, just a general image not connected to any scene, but speaking to the ongoing rivalry between the two brothers, so similar but so different from one another.
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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-21 17:22:03 +0000 UTC]
I agree that this would be quite the sight - 'The Unstoppable Force' Vs 'The Immovable Object' as it were (and it's hard to avoid the suspicion that a major part of Feanor's resentment of Fingolfin was born when Little Brother started proving himself to be one of the few beings short of the Valar who could stand in his Elder Brother's path and WOULD if he thought the reasons for doing so were good enough).
It actually struck me that where one wishes to make Fingolfin fair-haired (as you do, for very sensible reasons), it might be interesting to distinguish him from his gentle, golden-haired brother Finarfin (as well as hint at your leonine models for the first High King of the Noldor in Exile) were you to depict his hair as closer to bronze than gold in colour - bronze with it's distinctly Homeric associations and more martial temper strike me as quite suited to Fingolfin ...
I must say that it IS a shame that the image you describe didn't work out as you had hoped; it does sound like a perfect cap to the sequence and I would have liked to see your image of Frealaf Hildeson (who may lack his late Uncle's larger-than-life qualities but seems far from contemptible himself, passing the Long Winter on the very doorstep of the Dwimorberg, keeping some spark in his own heart and those of his people all the while, a spark kindled to a torch that consumed Wolf, cleaned out Edoras and rekindled hope in Rohan, founding an enduring line of kings in the process - I doubt he became a legend in his own lifetime or even afterwards, but I imagine that those who knew both Frealaf and Helm loved the former better than the latter!).
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Oznerol-1516 [2014-03-04 10:53:41 +0000 UTC]
Maybe this is one of your greatest artworks ever, with your depiction of Ar-Phârazon and Sauron in Numenor. If I had to choose a top ten of your artworks this would rank first or second.
The detail you put into this is amazing, trully impresive. I love Wulf's fibulae on his shoulder, it could be worn by an Anglo-Saxon King, a nice would have been to add a small wolf head. The carved throne is wonderful, the fluted, intricate design is masterfully done, while it still implies a gondorian origin by it's heavy mass and the columns on both sides of its back. It is majestic.
The attire of Wulf is also trully believable, the legs wrapped on loin cloth and the short tunic have a clear touch of Frankish and Anglo-Saxon fashion, the decorated band on the cloack its also trully historical and authentic, you could have push forward the link wolves-Wulf drawing 'dancing' wolves on those frames, sort of like the norse depictions of Fenrir, schematic and geometric. Even the simple circlet Wulf wears, that is so delicate and nicely done while conveys the regal power of Wulf, is worthy of praise.
The only thing I would add to Wulf is a sword, with a heavy pommel, a typical dark age sword, with carved hilt, of magnificent craftmanship. As you know in Dark Age the swords were symbol of status, they even had names and legendary background, a sword, laying on his lap or his hand resting on the sword's pommel would have been another nice touch. It could even had a horse head facing a wolf's in the pommel. Because Wulf here is clearly a King, but it needs, in my humble opinion, further detail to convey that he is the King of Rohan, maybe usurped regalia, or wolfes defeating horses in a tapestry... The extreme cold could also be implied by wrapping the King in a heavy furry, pelt cloack.
I love this drawing, I seriously love this so much that I will draw my own Wulf and see if I can depict the suggestions I told you.
Regards
Ps: The bodyguard is just perfect.
Ps2: I've noticed you never draw braids!
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TurnerMohan In reply to Oznerol-1516 [2014-03-05 15:23:47 +0000 UTC]
Glad you think so highly of this one, it's one of my favorites of my own work. I'm glad also that you mention their clothing, as I was very intent to make their clothing feel like authentic ancient saxon/frankish/northern dress, not like movie designs, which all too often, when treating historical costume and armor (especially for men) end up with too much of a modern "cut" to the clothes; broad shoulders, heavy leather riding boots, ect. those things seem to have really developed later in history, most historical costume from the dark ages tends to look like everyone's wearing long t-shirts, tights and bedding. I think the thinking is that the modern audience wouldnt identify that as a masculine or formidable look, except that, well, it kind of is, just not in the way we're used to, and Tolkien always seems to be going for a distinctly (almost perfectly) "transplanted from history" look and feel for the rohirrim, so it seemed appropriate.
I realized once it was too late that I really should have given Wulf a sword, I wanted to depict him (here) as, strangely, more a pensive leader than a fighter; he's the king of rohan, but most of his 'subjects' want him dead, the 'old' king is still alive and wont die, and is starting to inspire horror stories among wulf's dunnish followers, and he seems to have seized control of the throne just in time for a winter so brutal it basically paralyzes everyone. His kingship does not seem a happy or restful one.
I had thought about putting in alot of wolf designs, and I do to an extent (he's sitting on one) but in general I wouldn't want to get into that "movie design/geroge rr martin" territory of putting a particular character's or people's animal sigils all over everything (the LOTR movies did that with the rohirrim and their horses too) the effect is always a bit cartoony, i imagine the art of the rohirrim would not have to be relentlessly about horse head motifs, nor Wulf about wolves. That said, it is rather obvious that his symbol should be a wolf, and when you mention a wolf defeating a horse as a symbol of his kingship, I am, for one, rather amazed at how much we think alike, and two, i highly reccomend you check out this piece The Long Winter - which I did as a cover for the game - and read the description. i think you'll find alot of it sounds very familiar.
I'd love to see you take a stab at Wulf, maybe try some "wulfingas' (you'll read about them in the description for that other piece) i only did the one of them here, glad you like him.
I like braids just fine, but think they're a bit over used in fantasy art, and so far have not had occasion to use them.
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Oznerol-1516 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-06 20:28:03 +0000 UTC]
I also abhors some of media treatment of historical fashion. For example it is said that Charlemagne usually wore the frankish national dress, a tunic, bands in legs etc, etc... while most people would usually prefer him in a more 'imperial' or imposing clothes. Tolkien is marvellous many times as you can really, if have some historical knowledge, imagine how characters clothes are, or how would Aragorn arm himself for battle, far more easily. I always try to keep a certain degree of authenticity, for example no fantastic pauldrons (Numenoreans ones with scales are a exception, they are certainly a bit alien).
Yes, I don't see Wulf as a villian, is a grey character, while Helm, being the true King acts more like a tyrant, killing people bare-handed (even if I see something like a touch Norse epic saga in that). You are right in that he seemingly didn't fight a lot during his reign, he was sitting at Edoras, freezing his ass in Meduseld, he had to maintain his rule otherwise, and such you may have achieved to imply that in the drawing.
I love the wolf's pelt, by the way, it gives another nice historical-like touch to the drawing. I'm an ardent fan of Martin's work and more used to Late Middle Ages, such I tend to emphasize heraldry, like Henry V in Agincourt, crowned with the fleur de lys and covered with the impaled heraldry of Plantagenets and Capetians, fighting under the banners of Saint George, his own and those of Saint Edward the Confessor (even if fake). You are right that in V-XII centuries heraldry was far less important and kingship or lineage wasn't symbolized with such recurring use of heraldic symbols, kingship was more physical and less symbolic, a King looked like a King, by the quality of his robes, his manners, gaze or weapons. However I do see Rohirric art with some usual motifs, as stylized horses galloping, Eorl doing something, Fram slaying Scatha, grass-like filigree (symbol of the plains of Rohan), hunting scenes...
I'm playing around with Wulf (I did a draft yesterday, not entirely satisfied), trying to depict my thoughts about him; features, robes, sword, jewels... And I will give a try to the Wulfingas and let's see what I get.
It's nice that we thought alike! Yes it was just the same, and that artwork, by the way, is amazing (I'm totally unable to do celtic/norse like tracery!), I was just what I meant. You could have placed such an image somewhere in the artwork, but maybe you would have lacked focus? By the way, you should do an Erkebrand riding with Gandalf and carrying such a shield, while blowing a horn!
Yes, they are overused, I also tend to ignore braids, but sometimes they could be a nice touch for Eorlingas.
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Sirielle [2014-01-09 22:54:55 +0000 UTC]
Fantastic rendering both of the people and amazing, detailed throne. And I just red of Wulf today, while roaming through entries at Tolkien Gateway.
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TurnerMohan In reply to Sirielle [2014-01-10 08:12:21 +0000 UTC]
thank you so much, glad you like it! Wulf's an interesting character (what little we know about him)
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TurnerMohan In reply to jubah [2014-01-06 06:35:29 +0000 UTC]
Thank you so much!
The whole story of Helm Hammerhand and the Long Winter is told in about a page and a half in the appendices at the back of ROTK (under "the line of Eorl") so naturally, given the short length, all the characters and events are only very vaguely sketched out, as in the silmarillion, though I've always thought Tolkien had a great talent for giving short suggestions of characters and events which lend themselves readily to extrapolation in the minds of readers (it is actually there, rather than as a conventional novelist, where I think his greatest strength as a writer lay)
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jubah In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-01-07 01:32:03 +0000 UTC]
I agree strongly with you, since I am very invested in characters that are only shortly mentioned or depicted in the Silmarillion, myself, hahaha (I do think he is a brilliant novelist, though!)
I'm really curious to reread that now, so I think I will just do that and have your illustrations in mind!
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ElrondPeredhel [2013-12-15 14:47:48 +0000 UTC]
Just to begin being picky : the game cannot be called exactly a "rpg" as it's more a wargame. But that's details and the DA public probably don't care anyway.
That drawing is just one of the coolest made for the book (the coolest being the shield now that I saw it !). The moustache is just perfect. No kidding but we had the same idea. We thougt about that miniature before : www.grippingbeast.com/photos/W… . Okay it could be better for Freca (cause he's a lil' large) but there are a lot of things in this miniature conveyed in your rendition of Wulf : the moustache, the half-wild/half-civilized look, the fur, the leather-stripped skirt etc...
Funny how your drawings really makes me re-think my opinions on characters and events of ME. Like Wulf : I always envisonned him as a powerful warrior (and when I looked at your picture I first thougt that he was the one standing up) but now I realize he is probably smaller than most Rohirrim (cause of his Dunmen origins) and he apparently avoid confrontation with Helm (which is understandable), I do think he is a good warrior (I can imagine him killing Haleth in front of Meduseld) but not playing in the same field as Helm is. He is more of a strategist, making plans and alliances. I do imagine the impetuous Helm falling into a trap at the Isen Folds and being defeated, but escaping thanks to his fury.
For counting Wulf into the Kings of Rohan it's sure he isn't : Gleowine, Théoden's ministrel, sang all the names of the Kings from Eorl to Théoden and Wulf isn't among them.
Your depiction of Edoras under Wulf's short reign curiously sound to my ear alike to Saruman's (basically : "a big stabble in which children play into hors sh**")
The really detailed clothing (like the mantled of the Wulfing) are really a plus. The Wulfingas looks like a fierce warrior and funnily (don't be mistaken : I always use "funny" cause my vocabulary is poor, not cause I'm a happy-guy ), like a circle, really looks like the Warriors of Dunland designed by Games Workshop (here : www.games-workshop.com/gws/cat… ).
The throne is a great piece also, really reflecting what you were aiming from in your description. You are good for throne-design : it's completely different from Hurin's throne of yours but still really good.
On the nobility of Rohan I wonder if some of them (except the former vassals of Freca) did betray Helm and took Wulf's side ? Tolkien just said they were killed or token but it seems too optimistic (as always with his beloved riders).
On the question to who Helm's daughter sould be married if not Wulf we know a few of the lorderies and strongholds of Rohan : Grimslade, Aldburg, the Hornburg, Harrowdale, Dunharrow and Meduseld. It is said that Erkenbrand was the most powerful lord of Westfold so there were probably others (and his family was powerful if you add Dunhere of Harrowdale) than just Grimbold of Grimslade. May be this power came to Erkenbrand's family after the Long Winter : when most of the lords of Westfold were killed and a few of them traitors.
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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2013-12-15 19:45:22 +0000 UTC]
tolkien was pretty romantic when it came to the rohirrim and their fealty for their kings, so it seems unlikely (in tolkien's mind, though more likely when taking a more historically informed look) that any rohirrim would side with Wulf or the dunlandings.
I guess that celtic mustache (though really I chose it for it's race neutrality, as it was a popular style among both ancient celtic and germanic people) is kind of an obvious choice for Wulf, though looking at that model, i wonder what he would have looked like with bangs. I wanted him to have a certain polished regality to him, once installed on the throne in edoras, as if, being the son of a lord of rohan himself, he still respects the throne and title of King of the Mark. Wulf's reign and his feelings about his dunnish allies and unloving rohirric subjects is really interesting to think about. I compare him to Scar from The Lion King (for lack of a more historical or dignified comparison) who is a lion but has always been an outsider, and takes the kingship with the help of the hyenas after killing mufasa, welcoming in a (completely unwanted by the lions) age of "cooperation" between the lions and hyenas, only to be killed by the king's heir and mourned by no one (actually i can see edoras under wulf being much like pride rock under scar, brutish dunlandings, abused rohirric women with their heads held high, everyone hungry and cold including the king)
while I dont see Wulf or his father as small men, they are half dunlandings, and so do not posses that heroic stature of many rohirrim (especially the house of eorl) and niether are a force of nature like Helm. I imagine the news that Helm - who killed his father in a pretty damn fear-inspiring way - personally survived and escaped to the Hornburg, cannot be killed even alone and unarmed, and is staring to scare the dunnish soldiers would gnaw on him badly, and undermine his kingship. even the odd woman or old man of edoras, in a moment of courage, mockingly suggesting the king go to the hornburg and fight Helm himself. I would think wulf's short kingship would be an uneasy one, and he probably breathed a deep sigh of relief hearing the old giant froze to death.
I may have to do a take on Frealaf, especially since, very rare even for tolkien's most obscure characters, nobody has ever attempted him (though, when searching on google images, the first thing you run into is some pictures of chis hemsworth which is one of those ideas that, once you've seen them, are nigh impossible to get out of your head)
I would have loved to include one or two more fiugres, I had considered either a blonde rohirric woman of edoras rather brutally forced to her knees before the new king by a wulfing (there's a reason the rohirrim especially hate those guys) a heavily bundled (though lavishly adorned) messenger of the corsairs, or a ragged dunlanding come from the hornburg with fresh news, any of them would have worked with the two figures here I think, but sadly i didnt have enough space on the page for it, so I just moved them up closer to the firepit, which seems fitting enough (now I kinda wish I'd done this as a painting to catch the fire tones, although I'd probably still be working on it if i did )
Hurin's chair is more what I imagine the "throne" of an ancient lord of the northmen to look like, basically just a big chair, as hurin, as a lord, seems more a "first man among equals" than a king. when you look at viking "thones" they're usually just chairs, whereas the thrones of medieval kings (or even late dark age, christian kings) are these big ornate things meant to provide the added authority of the church-endorsed divine right of the king, enshrining his position (this was around the same time kings reffering to themselves as "we" or in the third person, as helm does when speaking to freca) I think tolkien was going for something similar to that sanctification with the rohirrim by the gondorians, a parallel to the chirstianization of the anglo-saxons by rome in the 500s; as tom shippey remarks, many of the kings of the mark's names mean "king" in their language (including theoden) but Eorl means "earl" suggesting a time before established "kings" (in their culture) it seemed fitting that the gondorian's, like rome, would have this consolodating and sanctifying effect on the previousely more scattered culture of the eorlingas, and would offer a fine royal seat to match.
the idea of helm's daughter as the progenitor of Erkenbrand's line is very appealing, making them something like the lords of andunie among the rohirrim (not the only family in such a position, after generations of royal cousins and second siblings and such). Helm's daughter was in the Hornburg with her father through the winter, and It would make sense that she and her husband, would be granted the wardenship of the hornburg by her newly crowned cousin Frealaf.
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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-01-31 11:49:29 +0000 UTC]
As a good resolution (I'm afraid it won't last but who knows ?) I want to answer to the old discussions we had. Especially when you wrote so many things that deserved answers I couldn't give at the time.
The idea of Rohirrim lords siding with Wulf is not so weird in my opinion, even in the Rohan Tolkien had in mind. After all it's one of the kingdoms in which we have the greater amount of treasons : Wulf and Freca of course but also Grima Wormtongue (who I don't imagine as a mixed-race like Jackson's movies suggested but as a pure-blooded Rohirrim which is pale skin tend to suggest since the Dunlendings have a brownish-skin). There are also the mixed-race of the War of the Ring, siding with Saruman in memory of their lords Wulf and Freca. But even Elfhelm, Grimbold and Erkenbrand loyalty can be questionned, as opposite to Eomer and Théodred, it is not clear if they are fighting for Rohan or for Théoden the madking.
I recently read a description of Charlemagne and, far from the old white-beareded santa-claus (kinda like Théoden) we often see him as, it is believed as a young man to wear a moustache and to have a large forehead and dark hair. I couldn't help myself but to think to your depiction of Wulf. I was amazed by the potential of Wulf as a fallen Charlemagne since they both share the sovereignity of a both celtic and germanic kingdom. That is probably a more "historical or dignified comparison" even though it's not at all accurate (and I'm quite sure Tolkien didn't have Charles the Great in mind when he wrote about Wulf).
I really wonder if he intended to bring the two regions (Dunland and Rohan) under one throne. He is said to be the chief of the Dunlendings but it seems that Dunland never lived under one rule before (and after as well), otherwise it wil have be a far greater threat to Rohan as the Long Winter shows (even though they had help from Umbar and Rhûn). I imagine that, as they are related to the Halethrim, they are independant people, living scattered, and don't like to take a chief. In Bombadil's tales to the Hobbits there is a passage that I think could be applied to the Dunlendings since it is about the hillmen who built the Barrows (before Elendil's landing) who could be related to the Bree-folk and the Dunlendings as well since they lived near-by :
" They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again."
And I read this and I'm like... oh God I love Tolkien so much !
There are many things that make me think these folks were related to the Dunlendings. The stone-rings on the Barrows may be allusions to Stonehenge and risen stones in ancient celtic lands. Especially since in Tolkien's time Stonehenge was believed to be a druidic temple and even called "The druidic Barrow" at some point if Wikipedia is right. The sheeps may be a reminder that the Dunlendings are described as herd-folks. I can also imagine that the natural independance of the Dunlendings, instead of having them living in separated households under a "warden", because they are so "ferocious" and may have turned their hearts to evil at some point (or at least part of them) are organized with a warrior-aristocracy (kinda like the gauls) into little kingdoms that fight eachother when they are not united against their common-ennemy.
The fortresses I imagine has "oppidum" of course. Speaking and thinking about Dunland so much make me really eager to see what you could do if you came back at it (for your historic-costume picture-book may be ). Or what, for example, the Stoors who lived for a few centuries in Dunland could have looked like. They became a "woodland people" so I don't think they lived among them but they surely had many contacts with them and may have enjoyed a profitable trade (may be some tribes were Hobbit-friends while others descendants of the Enedwaith who served Sauron were aggressive toward them). The Stoors are quite "Halethrim-like" among the Hobbits (even though the Harfoot are the real "lesser-kind") : they love nature and had a matriarchal society at some point (the Stoors of the Gladden Fields had but the Stoors of Buckland shared the same partiarchal organization than other Hobbits even though females have a very important role among Hobbits that they don't have in most of Tolkien's invented societies.
What you said about the Rohirrim kings is very interisting and fits with Tolkien'sown words that Eorl was accounted as the first king of Rohan but was treated all his lifelong as lord of the Eotheod instead of king of his new realm that was still in construction (kinda like his hall and the throne inside it btw).
As for Erkenbrand lord of the Westfold here is a funny fact : among all the Rohirrim he is the guy for whom Tolkien imagined the most names before finnally choosing Erkenbrand : Elfstone, Erkenwald, Heoruf the Walker, Herelaf, Heruf, Nothelm and Trumbold. Quite enough to invent him a line don't you think ? There are eight kings from Fréalaf to Théoden and we have seven names. We know that Erkenbrand was an old warrior at the time of the War of the Rings and Helm's daughter's husband may have been a bit younger than Fréalaf (king at thirty-three).
It is also noticeable that two of his names, Heoruf (sword of the wolf) and Heruf (army of the wolf) contain the root of 'Wulf' and makes acceptable names for the Wulfingas with Garulf (spear of the wolf) and Marculf (wolf of the mark).
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Zeonista [2013-11-18 15:00:20 +0000 UTC]
Ah, so you did it! Wulf looks good, enjoying his status as king-by-force in Meduseld. It may be the coldest winter on record, he may need a double layer of wolf-skins for the throne, but it's still his throne! Sure, the Hornburg and Dunharrow haven't submitted, but spring will come, and the horse-lords have to be feeling the cold too! (And those men at the Hornburg have to get a grip, really! ) I do like the simple heraldry of the wolf, and Wulf and his Wulfingas imitating the Rohirric culture they profess to despise. The throne is an impressive work of art, and I can support it as being a kingly gift from Gondor. My one criticism is that you depicted the standing Wulfing as left-handed, but you pinned his cloak as if he was right-handed. Having worn cloaks and carried things, and having friends doing the same, it makes a difference where the heavy double-lined cloak gets fastened.
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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-11-18 18:16:45 +0000 UTC]
It's good to be the king I hadnt thought of them so much as imitating Rohirric culture (though that is definitely Helm's circlet and possibly one of his cloaks Wulf is wearing) but rather that Wulf, his father before him, and his guards all regard themselves as men of Rohan more than dunlandings. As you mentioned, racial identity can get complicated in the westfold, Helm calls Freca "dunlanding" (and his son makes the accusation feel alot more true by invading with a dunnish army) but Helm seems like a bit of a nazi on the hair issue (and on fat people) and I think that's more insult than accurate. Wulf has some descent (however distant) from a king of the mark, and probably would like to see his ousting of Helm as more revenge and his right than as an invasion (it was a big question for me how "dunnish" to make Wulf, the mustache seems appropriately race neutral, a popular style with the celtic men of dunland, while not unpopular with the germanic rohirrim) I had this idea for wulf's device (or one for his men) of a black wolf taking down a white horse, maybe on a maroon field, i was going to put another of his guards on the other side of the chair with his back turned to us so we could see it on his shield, but didnt have the room. I may still make that as a separate image, highly stylized.
and yes, I agonized over that very point with the cloak and sword; I'd considered putting the helmet in the right hand, and the sword on the left side, but couldnt quite make it work. guess i should have expected to get caught
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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-11-19 02:27:15 +0000 UTC]
It's kind of a question mark as to who Helm Would marry his daughter to, as Freca is the only named lord of his generation probably some ancestor or gamling's or erkenbrand's (I wish we knew more about their social hierachy, though it's a pretty safe guess it functions very much like anglo-saxon society) Freca's house is one of a complex story that I could see told in heraldry. the wolf (which he named his son and heir after, if not after some lord of the northmen, pre-eorl, who bore the name) is an animal that I could see as a powerful symbol among all men who encounter them, being intimidating, formidable creatures (like lions) but also villainous (especially in middle-earth, and in the ancient nordic/germanic reckoning which so informed tolkien's creation) it's an aggressive name, made all the more so by the suitable (and, one could imagine, common) comparison by the rohirrim of the dark-haired dunnish raiders and cattle thieves to wolf packs. freca tried to join his family to the house of eorl and (monumentally) failing that, his son tries to overthrow it. It's a little bit like in the lion king (I wish i had a more historical or simply less childish example) where scar, who is a lion but has always been an outsider, takes the kingship with the help of the hyenas after his brother dies, welcoming in a (completely unwanted by the lions) age of "cooperation" between the lions and hyenas (actually i can see edoras under wulf being much like pride rock under scar, brutish dunlandings, abused rohirric women with their heads held high, everyone hungry and cold)
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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2013-11-21 07:33:21 +0000 UTC]
yes I remember that whole kimba/simba controversy, and the stories are quite similar, but I'm inclined to give the lion king the benefit of the doubt, one because it's based largely on hamlet (which seems a reasonable explaination for the "classical drama" feel of it) and secondly because "simba," though it sounds an awful lot like kimba, translates to "lion" in swahili.
you and I are of one mind on the townfolk in edoras. Initially (as I mentioned before) I'd wanted this piece to be much bigger in scope including more figures and more of meduseld's architecture, and one of my ideas for a composition was to have this blonde rohirric woman hauled forward roughly by one of wulf's guards and forced to her knees before the king, presumably on suspicion of providing intelligence to Frealaf. (I was in a very "frazetta" mood at the time ) my other idea had a messenger from the corsairs presenting himself before Wulf, but try as I might, I didnt have enough room on the paper for either of them, and so shifted focus to the cold and the "shut in" feeling of the scene
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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2013-11-22 02:48:19 +0000 UTC]
I could endorse your Frazetta-style and other extended scene pictures, but the truncated version had its own story to tell, so that's alright.
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l-Ellena-l [2013-11-18 14:31:21 +0000 UTC]
I hate him but it's great that we can finally see him drawn, thank you I like the details and your style in general.
Best regards.
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Gabbanoche [2013-11-18 10:05:56 +0000 UTC]
i really like the throne, altho i have to admit i miss the horse motifs. or is this before they became horselords?
and mr Wulf looks great, a bit annoyed as i would imagine a usurper would be
fun fact the Wulfingas( aka Wulfings and Ylfingar) are, or i should say where, a Swedish iron age clan that hails from Öster Götland in Sweden.
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TurnerMohan In reply to Gabbanoche [2013-11-18 17:47:21 +0000 UTC]
thank you! I missed the horse motifs myself (and yes they were already horsemen at this time) but I wanted to hold off on them because, though I loved the films' design work for the rohirrim, I though horses were way too dominant in their art. they should feature heavily to be sure, but it seemed like the kind of thing you'd see in sets and props designed for a movie, rather than in something out of any real art-historical tradition.
I was aware of that connection to real history. Wulfings are mentioned in beowulf, and i thought it was a very good, appropriate call on the part of the guys making the game.
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Zeonista In reply to Gabbanoche [2013-11-18 19:43:36 +0000 UTC]
Oh, so there is a grave in Sweden that is attributed to the legendary champion of the Geats? It would be like Arthur's Seat in England.
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Gabbanoche In reply to Zeonista [2013-11-19 13:06:00 +0000 UTC]
well, yes and no. you se there is a barrow that Birger Nerman in 1956 claimed to be Beowulf grave, and its Western Sweden's largest burial mound.
thing is that in Sweden there is alot of argument about where stuff is, for example Gamla uppsala and Svealand, is one of the things people dont agree upon where its at. some say Mälardalen and some say the area of Kinnekulle in Skaraborg( wich would put it just over of the T in Geats on this map upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia… ) .
and the main excavations happen in Mälardalen around Birka and other places up there. so no one have excavated the grave but i do know they did some test and dated it to the 600-century.
the grave is called Skalunda hög.
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Zeonista In reply to Gabbanoche [2013-11-20 15:48:50 +0000 UTC]
Somebody needs to get a dig grant right now!
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Gabbanoche In reply to Gabbanoche [2013-11-18 11:25:31 +0000 UTC]
I would like to correct myself. I think i went a little overboard with saying they are sprung from Östergötland. when i thought on the matter i realised that i think they are only referred to as eastern Geats.
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