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wolfMancub β Lion King should not be a religion
Published: 2012-02-09 22:25:55 +0000 UTC; Views: 3438; Favourites: 41; Downloads: 0
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I changed the stamp to include only text, in order to follow dA's rules. The original stamp can be viewed here: [link]I don't mean to offend anyone, I just wish to comment on and discuss accurate use of terms. If you don't like this topic, please just walk away and go enjoy your day. Although, I am slightly interested in what is a Kopa believer so afraid of losing? Again, no offense intented and I sincerely wish to discuss these matters in a mature manner.
If you can't do that, please walk away without commenting.
So, here's what I've been thinking:
With a solid fact comes knowledge, and that leaves no room for belief.
Person A: "I don't care what Disney says! I believe it's Kopa who got killed/murdered/kidnapped/ran away!"
Person B: "I don't care what Disney says! I believe Kopa is canon!"
One can believe in God because there's no facts about His existence to any direction. But not in Kopa. Because Alex Simmons has confirmed that not Disney but he is the creator of Kopa. [link] And after his publishment the cub has never been called Kopa but "Fluffy" and Kiara by its creator, Disney. [link]
And you know why Disney and Simmons did that? Because The Lion King and its sequel are movies, NOT something to be treated as a religion.
"Stop treating Lion King like its a form of religion
Person #1 "I just did some research of the Lion King Six Story books and it turns out Kopa isnt a Disney made character, I can provide proof he is not canon to the movie"
Lion King Weeaboo: "NO I BELIEVE KOPA IS REAL AND YOU CAN CHANGE THAT"
Person #1: "But I can provide you with facts involving the subject"
Lion King Weeaboo: "YOUR WRONG I BELIEVE IN MY HEART HE IS REAL ITS THE ONLY LOGICAL EXPLAINATION"
then a whole bunch of Kopa believers attack Person #1 like that person is the anti-christ
Lion King is a goddamn movie."
---> [link]
And no I'm not just trusting that person's over-all example. I have personal experience of said situation, in the role of the Person #1, and I have witnessed many sad stories exactly like that. That is the embarassing reality of this fandom.
I think the word to use instead of "believe" would be "prefer". One may prefer it to be Kopa who got killed/murdered/kidnapped/ran away, and one may prefer Kopa to be canon.
But he will never be any of those things because Disney didn't want him to. And...I'm sorry but I don't know when fanfiction ceased to be enough?
TO DISNEY: The cub = Fluffy = Kiara
And just for the record: To me Fluffy is Kiara.
THE LION KING ORIGIN FORUMS: [link]
DISCLAIMER: The Lion King, Fluffy, Kiara and the images used Β© to The Walt Disney Company. This is non-profit fan art for comment and educational purposes only. No cpyright infringement intented.
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Comments: 81
No one's going to stop this bullshit, believing that Kopa is real, and keep bad mouthing Kiara, why would you want a Pussy Ass Bitch like Kopa, when you can have a risk taking badass like Kiara?
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Oh my gosh I 100% agree. That is hilarious. cx
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Kiara with a sex change. Β It's established early on that ALL TLK cubs with a break at the neck in their lighter belly fur are male. Β "Fluffy" possesses such a break. Β Thus the cub at the end of TLK is male.
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For story purposes it doesn't matter how they drew it. As no one can see that belly fur detail when viewing the movie, because it's only visible if you pause the movie _just_ right. And may even require in addition to take a screenshot and zooming in. That fact combined to how the cub's sex and gender was never spoken of in the movie or by its creators --> in essence it remains genderless/sexless. Unless you count in TLK2: Simba's Pride which turned it into the daughter Kiara, as the sequel's creators have stated.
But just out of curiosity; where exactly is it "established early on" that ALL male cubs have that physical physical trait? Such thing is never spoken of in the movie whatsoever and I don't recall anything on the commentary track either that originates from the Laserdisc release in 1995.
Such thing is not an established fact as long as something in the canon doesn't literally state that ALL male cubs are that way. Up until then it is only a theory - logical and sensible one, yes, but still nothing more than a theory. And as long as it's not an established fact such cub can be written as a daughter without it contradicting anything.
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Dude im currently studying biology to become a vet and this topic interested me as a lion king fan. The cub at the end of the original is indeed male. This may not be kopa due to the fact of the books featuring him not being cannon. It, however, is male. The presentations are different too. not just in style or refinery. look at the scenes for comparison.
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Real life biology and differences in the scenes are irrelevant. All that matters is what the films' as in the story's creators say. One of the sequel's creators confirmed the cub to be a female, Kiara, in 1998. The original's creators have never referred to it as a male or female but only as "the cub" with a unisex nickname, "Fluffy".
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The presontations are different. from a story standpoint this cub is NOT the same.Β
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Yes it is the same because THE CREATORS OF THE STORY said it is the same cub. It was their decision to redesign the cub and the scene and their decision to still mean it to be the same, so it is the same. The visual aspect alone isn't the story. The creators' intent and the script contents is also and the most crucial aspects of the story.
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this still does not change this cub is not kiara.the books aren't canon but they explain a lot. this is why people tend to make the existence of kopa cannon in their stories. the stamp is uneeded and infact wrong from a story point. creatorxs point of view sure but again the stamp inforces others not to enjoy themselves and the belief of "IM RIGHT" down a unsespecting kopa fans throats.
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The stamp is only stating the facts. Take it as you will. Not my problem.
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"the stamp is only stating facts" it doesn't mean it doesn't damped other peoples enjoyment of the franchise
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Again, not my problem. It is their problem if they let it affect them like that, whilst anyone is free to state facts about anything in this world. Also, these facts can be found elsewhere as well. Even if I never made this stamp they would come across these facts someday somewhere else. They need to grow up and not let facts affect their enjoyment of things because in adult life facts are unavoidable, no adult can function or hold intelligent discussions if they ignore facts and only acknowledge whatever they personally want. That's not how life/the world works.
I acknowledge that facts may disappoint you about something, but that doesn't mean you have to let it affect your enjoyment of that something. In the case of stories you will still have fanfiction. Your preferred fanfiction not being official canon isn't the end of the world because you can nontheless keep imagening and writing and drawing your fanfiction.
This stamp is not trying to tell people not to do fanfiction or love whatever they love. This is only asking people to be reasonable and open-minded, that is acknowledging and accepting the facts that the franchise has not been built the way they would like it to be but that they can still keep enjoying their own fanfiction version of it. Essentially, asking people to not treat this franchise as a religion and not attack others who prefer the facts, because it's pointless what with all the facts existing.
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oh lol no it doesn't affect me cause I like kopa. it affects me because this cub is male in biology
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Then I think what I said in my previous reply applies to you even more. I mean, if you don't even have emotional connection to the characters in question but only have trouble getting past the visual appearance. Accepting the facts shouldn't be so hard / deminish any enjoyment. They retconned the cub's appearance and scene, that's all and that happens all the time in movie business. That's just a fact no one can change for you and this stamp wasn't the first thing to point that out. Let it go and just enjoy the story or your fanfic version of it.
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I suppose. Ive been talking like an offended nine year old because of my rage that the fact the cub is male by biology and my passion for biology blinded me. I genuinely believed you intended to state something to squash the fanfics, and I---thouroughly apologise
thank you for remaining so calm through the interaction
thank you for explaining it in your reply too
I am gebnuinely sorry now for wasting your time-
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Nevermind. I'm just glad my intentions were cleared and we can end this little debate properly. My time would have been much worse wasted if you were one of those Kopa believers who can't wrap their minds around the truth / can't see reason. Granted, I wouldn't have replied to them this many times. Anyway, no hard feelings and I wish you a nice day.
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The cub is NOT kiara nor kopa, its FLUFFY a genderless cub which is simba and nala's heir.
simba's pride is nothing more than a story from different directors who make a story of their likeness of what happened after the end of TLK
the comics are also a story from other people who makes their own story of what happened
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Genderless? Β Then why the break in his belly fur? Β Only male cubs possess this feature. Β All female cubs, including Kiara, have uniform belly fur that stretches from their chests to their chins.
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Well, Kopa was published in official Lion King merchandise (i.e. those books) which makes him an official cannon character, but I agree the cub at the end of the first movie was Kirara. It was just Disney making way for a sequel to get more money. Yeah I love the Lion King but I'm not that crazy about it.Β just enjoy the movie for what it is- a good animated film 
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Not canon, but expanded universe. Β Simba's Pride is somewhere between canon and expanded universe. Β It's part of the movie continuity, but it is not part of the original storyline, as it's not written by the same people. Β Hence all the glaring plotholes. Β And, well, with that many plotholes within the movie continuity, fans have a right, and even a responsibility, to draw from extra-canonical materials to try and patch those plotholes. Β Hence why we cling to Kopa. Β He's the best tool we have for reconciling the glaring discrepancies between the true and ultimate canon of TLK and the Disney sequel formula-following Simba's Pride.
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Yeah I learned that a long time ago after posting this comment
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"which makes him an official cannon character"
Not exactlty, at least for most fandom world views official canon is something created by the original creators - (in this case the first film's creators). But they did not create Kopa, the books nor approve them in any way. Therefore Kopa is not official canon character. Being published in a merchandise makes him simply official character in the franchise in general. The only canon he can hope to be is a fan's personal canon.
Even many Kopa fans seem to think that official canon is something created by the film makers or at least by Disney's company, but then they refuse to acknowledge when it's being pointed out that Kopa in fact wasn't created by the film makers or even by Disney's company at all.
But of course views differ and will probably always be debated.
I just don't get it why is it so important to some fans that Kopa would be official canon. As in why isn't it enough that he exists.
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Ah, see I thought Cannon simply meant 'published' not really that it HAD to be from the original creators. Well, in all fairness I really don't care if Kopa is cannon or not. I enjoyed the movie as a kid and I enjoyed the six adventures as a kid. I didn't care who wrote them, as long as they were from the TLK universe I was a happy child.
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Yep.
I personally fight only for the official matters, as in people can combine Kopa and their fanfictions to the movies as much as they please as long as they don't pass it off as official storyline and what "really happened" which the opposite unfortunately is widely the case with Kopa fans, deliberately - hence, the religious attitude they have, even against solid facts from Disney's emplyees' mouths. (Which get drowned under all the fanfiction parading.) I just don't want the original, meaningful story to get unnecessarely twisted and buried by those fanatics spreading their personal fanfiction as official without going unchecked.
Of course sometimes the false information spreading is unintentional because there are newbies who take at face value whatever seems most widely informed (like, "that Kopa's character is very popular in fanfiction and fanart, looks like the cub at the end and it reads on many sites that he's canon therefore he must be canon.") I (and others with the same moive) can only hope they eventually spot these actual facts about the official canon.
For some reason, ie. the commentary track of the first film wherein the cub is actually named "Fluffy" and given no gender, is relatively unknown although it's existed since the 1995 Laserdisc release (which was even after the books.)
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I watch someone who adds in the characters like Kopa and Malka and such to their Lion King story line and they even say its obviously fan made and that's just one of the scenarios they came up with for their comics. I just enjoy reading people's head-cannon ideas and such. 
And yeah, I remember they called it Fluffy, mainly because it had no gender. The cub was born just to signify the whole 'circle of life' idea- Simba being born then taking his place as king and then continuing the family line. The cub was sort of open ended and yet made just enough to make a satisfying ending. Then thy decided later to make a sequel off of Fluffy (which became Kiara)
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Welp. You learn something every day. I've always been a fan of the Lion King but had never heard of this Kopa before now. Would you like to enlighten me a little more?
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If I can. What more would you like to know?
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Anything really. I know nothing of Kopa.
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Well...
He's a character completely created by a man called Alex Simmons, (who did not work at Disney), some time in 1993 or 1994. Kopa first appeared in a book titled "A Tale of Two Brothers" which was also completely written by Mr. Simmons and a part of a six-books series called The Lion King: Six New Adventures. Kopa appears as a side character in most of them, although not all the six books were written by Simmons. But he's said Kopa "is my creation all the way".
Kopa is Simba and Nala's son in those books and the future king.
When Simmons created Kopa, he had no idea if Simba and Nala were even to have a child in the movie, as in Kopa is nothing more or less but an original character by an outsider, "inspired" by the movie before the movie was even completed, I guess.
In-storily there's not much to know about Kopa, because indeed he's never had any official appearence outside those six books, (and a couple of German audio books), in which he's always a side-character. He has very little official personality and no life-story established.
He was never intended into the movies, neither one.
You canΒ be sure that any even a bit more indepth personality description and any background/life-story/theory you come across for Kopa, is nothing more but non-profit fanfiction created by a fan - no matter how much they paraded it as the Absolute Official Canon Truth.
Kopa was never official canon and therefore he doesn't have an official story linked to the sequel movie or even to the first movie, and has no officially established indepth personality.
He's nearly an empty shell for fans to work on, an official fanfiction character from a merchandise book series.
To be fair, he has a lot of potential as a character. A fan could have a lot of fun and create interesting plots writing him to be born AFTER the sequel movie's events. Which is really also the only even seemingly logical setting. Unfortunately thatis extremely unpopular setting because the Kopa-believers are aiming for fandom domination...well, actually they pretty much already have reached it.
Umm...Did this tell anything? 
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I can see where his followers can be very annoying for true cannon followers like me. I really do dislike it when people put a none existent or side character as a deciding factor for the Cannon story, making them a Mary Sue.
These same people, though, will criticize you without mercy if you do the same thing with a different character weather in the same world or another one. Hell I have an OC that only comes into the lives of Cannons during the time between seasons/episodes, thus not tampering with the order of things in the series and she is constantly called a Mary Sue because of her interaction with the Cannons and when I look at the stories that most of these same people make, their OC's end up completely railroading the story and out doing the main Cannons.
Another one I get a lot of grief over is when I take a side character and follow what they would of been doing during the time of the main story's events, even properly placing their roles in the main story in the fanfiction with very little deviation and making sure the same outcome comes about if I don't remember how the scene went down exactly. I am still ragged on about how that character would never do these things.
And the other type of fan I despise are the ones that read fanfictions about a Cannon/Cannon or Cannon/OC straight couple and fuss about how male Cannon should never be with a female and how that female should die so that the male Cannon can realize how much he truly loves other male Cannon even when said male Cannon is obviously homophobic in the Cannon story.
These two fans are a disgrace to fandoms everywhere and give a very bad name to all fanficioners. I even had a friend who stopped writing all together because of how violent one fan got over her Fanfiction that just spoke of a Cannon couple.
((By the way, I'm the same way about the long winded responses, as you can tell XD))
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He's an official character from a few Lion King books wherein he's Simba and Nala's son. He was not created by Disney but by an outsider, and the books were approved by Disney's marketting device and Disney never tied them into the movies.
Here's an e-mail reply from Kopa's creator: [link]
And words from Disney: [link]
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Ah, thanks for explaining.
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Okay, time for my input.
First off, you are wrong about the statement about Kiara. You have your personal opinion about the cub at the end being Kiara, we have ours about it being Kopa, or Tanabi or whoever. But at the end of the day, that cub is Fluffy. The second movie does try to tell us it is Kiara, but do they really think we will think that a cub and ceremony completely different to the original is the same? You think it's Kiara, I think it's Kopa, but really its just plain Fluffy.
And how is us stating our opinions and view about theores and fillng in the plotholes that Disney left us treating it as a Religion? I haven't seen anyone treat it as a relgion. I've seen big fans, such as myself, but never people treating it as a religion.
I don't know why I'm bothering to disagree, cause you're just gong to come back at me with something to defend your facts like usual, I'm not trying to start an arguement or be your enemy or anything, I just want to voice my opinion in peace
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How could I be wrong, when it being Kiara is a fact that origins from Disney just as much as Fluffy does?
Even if it applies only to the combination of the movies, it's still nonetheless a fact origining from Disney.
Also, that it's Kiara is not supported only by Disney creating and saying it is Kiara, but by the storyline giving no room for it to be anyone else. As in, if only you Kopa fans thought of it as Kopa and regarded only the first movie. But the problem you Kopa fans have, (though you do not care), is ignoring Disney's facts and trying to stuff Kopa into a storyline where he has no possible place in. And then some of you go all the way into actually beleiving your forced puzzle to make sense, spreading it as the official truth and getting furious when it's pointed out as impossible.
Again, it's fine if you want to think of Fluffy as Kopa and want to stuff him into a story wherein he has no logical room to exist. But it doesn't change that Fluffy = Kiara is a fact by Disney's word, and not fans' personal opinion, when we indeed are talking about that story which is the movies combined. In that scenario you guys are alone with the only-your-personal-opinion stand-point.
That's why the stamp says Kiara instead of Fluffy. Because I have never seen any Kopa fan who doesn't try to force him into Kiara's story.
BUT - most importantly, this stamp's point is not any opinion matters. It is the unhealthy religious degree some Kopa fans have taken their fact denying attitudes.
"And how is us stating our opinions and view about theores and fillng in the plotholes that Disney left us treating it as a Religion?"
No, that's not it. Read the entire description, please.
"I haven't seen anyone treat it as a relgion. I've seen big fans, such as myself, but never people treating it as a religion."
You will.
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bet they dont even know what the original lion king was XD
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Anything and *everything* can be taken out of gross proportion by over-zealous fans. It's the "embarrassing reality" to *all* fandoms. But it's also something that people are very passionate about too -- that's why they hold true to their very strong opinions.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Everyone will always have their own convictions on the subject -- whether there's legit proof or not proving otherwise.
To throw my own opinion in here, I love Kopa. I was heavily disappointed with SP and how Simba acted sometimes. After reading LK6NA with Simba having a son, I could weave my own story into why Simba acted the way he did with Kiara and why Kiara is even there to begin with and not Kopa. ... Thus begins the great creative process of fan-fiction.
I feel that Kopa is canon enough due to the book was published. It may not have been through Disney or anything but the book was still published. No fan-fiction out there on LK can attest to the same thing.
Regardless of what designers or directors said about details that are probably not even all that important to them, the cub at the end of LK and the cub at the beginning of SP are clearly two different looking lions. There's no arguing that. And I heard-tell he named the cub "fluffy" at the end of LK simply to name it *something* as opposed to "son" or "daughter" ... as I'm sure they weren't thinking of a sequel at that time (or at all). ...
Not so much fact, mostly opinion on this one but ... that's where I'll always stand regardless of what new "proof" comes out.
I'm not coming from some vehemence to prove people wrong on the matter. There *are* those out there who revel in those things and want nothing more than to spear somebody else with the "truth." ... But in this case, it's something I can happily enjoy from a distance as opposed to years and years ago when it used to be my world.
But ... it *is* a big deal to some people and I respect them for it. Just as I would hope others would respect me for the same thing (different medium). ...
I do feel though ... that it's going to be one of these never ending philosophical questions on the subject and it will never truly be resolved.
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I totally agree!
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Male lions leave their birth pride to find mates because most of the pride's females are related to each other maybe that's where Kopa is. Besides the story focuses on Kiana not her brother, It not an earth ending event in any case.
BTW: Lion king isn't an original Disney story. It's based off of the Jungle Emperor or in the US it's called Kimba: The White Lion [link]
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Kopa is nowhere except in some of the books because he never existed in the movies' storyline. Thus also Kopa is not Kiara's brother. He's just another version of one basic character, (Fluffy). He can be her brother in fanfiction but really not be refered as such in general discussions because officially they have never existed in the same storyline.
And The Lion King is Disney's original story, and not based on Kimba. Some scene ideas/poses may have been refered from it but that does not make the story itself based on Kimba, because the story is entirely different.
All the documentaries make very clear - and it is also obvious - that the story was inspired by Shakerspeare's Hamlet and various Biblical stories such as that of Moses. They started off with no idea except that it would have lions as main characters, then the story plot and contents varied widely until it started to take its final shape and unintentionally have Hamlet-like aspects which include an uncle killing his nephew's father and the father's spirit appearing to his son, so those are so NOT from Kimba.
As for the bug eating to save the cub's non-carnivorous friends, that could totally be a coinsidence. They did not even originally mean to include Timon and Pumbaa, but then made them up for comic relief, and seeing to what the duo are and where they live, Simba would HAVE TO eat bugs to spare his friends.
So, The Lion King IS Disney's original story that was inspired by Halmet and Biblical stories (hence they were unintentinal and thus not exactly based on but just inspired) and likely took some visual references from Kimba. (There are too many similarities in those terms to be a conisidence, I think.)
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That's nice. Frankly I have better things to get upset over than fictional lion.
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Now you're confusing getting upset to normal debating with facts. Hence, you provided false facts and flawed assumptions in direct respnse to something I said, so I debated them. There's nothing upset about that as it's a normal process of discussion. You may have also confused getting upset to efforts to end people actually getting upset over a fictional lion. Hence, what the description box's content points out. So your sarcasm falls flat and I think you know that. In any case, if you have better things to do than debate then by all means go do it.
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Facts or not I think the whole debate is inane. It's hardly a life shattering event.
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I can think up tons of far more inane topics that are being debated in the world. Besides, a fandom is an interactive community that should function as fun and relaxing free-time "place" but in this case doesn't because of the religious attitude of some fans' is creating large information and getting-along issues. Hence, even if not a life-shattering situation, it's taking enjoyability away from large number of people trying to enjoy something they love. And thus, a matter worth discussing and debating.
If you disagree, no one's forcing you to stick around. Just go take part in discussions you find of importance.
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I agree with this stamp. Nice job!
I don't put down Kopa fans however. What you do in fanfiction is your own business, as long as you're not parading around like it's canon I'm ok with it.
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