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carollaa In reply to jagged-eye [2013-01-17 11:38:03 +0000 UTC]

Love and peace ! Thank you for thanking time to discuses our thought and look at my photos

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Metraxus In reply to p4rtOFthePr0blem [2012-12-15 19:58:28 +0000 UTC]

i agree- non natives wearing war bonnets is racist. it's a form of racial stereotyping that some people seem to think is acceptable. the war bonnet is sacred to the great plains tribes, and only a male warrior who has earned the right to wear one through bravery etc may wear one. anyone else who wears one is being culturally insensative by trivialising these people's culture.

the photo maybe beautiful; well composed etc. that does not detract from the fact that it is a promotion of racial stereotypes and racism.

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Metraxus In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-17 19:49:05 +0000 UTC]

also, depicting a non native in such a fetish-ised way in some way promotes rape culture by infering that native american (and wommen as a whole) are objects of lust and desire. This is very dangerous considering that 1 in 3 native american women are victims of rape. :/

just sayin'.

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CitrineG In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-15 23:09:02 +0000 UTC]

I think that non-natives may wear headdresses- as long as htey have earned it. the warbonnet is a sacred obbject, and each feather has a meaning-sending this piece into This-Is-Not-Native on tumblr.

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Metraxus In reply to CitrineG [2012-12-16 00:58:36 +0000 UTC]

even in plains indians societies, women do not wear war bonnets. therefore non native women should never wear the war bonnet, as it is a sacred object reserved for the male warrior class of the tribes. if a non native male had earned the right to wear it then yes, that would be acceptable but even then it should not be worn out of context i.e. in fashion shoots such as this, as it risks making the war bonnet into a meaningless costume, and detracts from its sacred nature.

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-17 19:01:04 +0000 UTC]

I don't mean to jump in so randomly, but I do have a couple things to say. Firstly, I looked at the tumblr page, and I think I would have to agree about most of the pictures I saw there. A lot of them looked incredibly stupid and seemed disrespectful. But, I would like to ask where you draw the line. What if the picture is a piece of actual art (and I know, that’s a debate for itself…) that celebrates the intended purpose of the headdress? There was a drawing on that tumblr page, and I didn’t really understand what was the huge deal about that one, since it seems to be much more artistic than a hipster girl taking a photo of herself in the mirror with an iPhone. It also depicted an actual warrior who was a man. (And I know, again. A completely different debate about the nature of art and all that good stuff, but you know what I mean.) It sort of seems like it’s never okay for a headdress like this to be depicted if there’s any other race involved. To state another example, there was just a picture of one of these headdresses on that page as well. No one was wearing it, and the picture was taken well, pointing out the beauty of it. Are people of other races not even allowed to enjoy it? I can understand why someone might take offence at a dumb hipster girl or boy just wearing one for the hell of it, because it is sacred. It’s sort of like someone defacing a Bible to a Christian. But what if the purpose of the art is to appreciate and celebrate it as more than a fashion statement, even if that art or photograph is by a white person? Is that also not okay just because the artist isn't from the same culture?

I also think the argument could be made that this isn't racist. I can see why someone might find it offensive, but I wouldn't call it racist. I don't really see how this is a "promotion of racial stereotypes", as you put it yourself. I think most people see it as an article of clothing, even if it is something sacred. Not to be racist myself, but to use an actual "stereotype", it would actually be racist if she was holding a bottle of alcohol in the photo and standing outside a casino. I feel horrible even saying that, but I think that would be much more indicative of continuing negative stereotypes than wearing an article of clothing, regardless of how sacred it is. I doubt highly the intention of this photo was to make Native Americans look marginalized, stupid, barbaric, or really any negative adjective you can cram into that sentence. (Obviously, racism isn't always negative. One can make the statement that Asians are smart and know martial arts, and while those things can be considered possitive, it's still stereotyping.) But I'm not seeing how this connects to racism. Mostly because it's a headdress; a piece of clothing on a very basic level. Yes. It is absolutely a headdress associating to a specific culture, but why is it "racist" for a person from another culture to wear it? Certainly, it shows a lack of understanding, but maybe you can explain to me why it's actually racist and not just ignorant.

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-17 19:46:13 +0000 UTC]

just to note, I don't know anything about the tumblr page you're describing so i really don't know.
The artist's race has nothing to do with the art he creates, so i don't really understand what your saying there. I'm talking about the appropriation of Native American culture and the stereotyping of their identity.
The quality of the artwork is irrelavent to the fact tht the subject is racist. I think the composition of this photo is really fantastic, but that does not detract from the fact that the depiction of a non native female in a war bonnet is racial stereotyping.
I draw the line by saying if the photo trivialises such a sacred object and makes it into a "costume" for the people of that culture then it is racist as it promotes an idea that Native American cultures can be manipulated to suit western values, i.e. reducing a sacred object and symbol of profound respect to an article of clothing. You yourself do not see the war bonnet as a sacred object because you are a victim of this stereotyping in the media, which is why you keep insisting that the war bonnet is "just" an article of clothing, when it represents so much more.
I also doubt that was the purpose of the photo. However reducing the war bonnet to an article of clothing that can be appropriated by fashion is racist thinking, because it implies that the Native culture is less important than that of the fashion designer/photographer's culture and so can be manipulated to suit said culture.
In depicting a non native in a war bonnet, the photographer is not celebrating Native American culture. That is done through respect of the sacred nature of the war bonnet for the plains indians.
It is racist if a person from another culture wears the war bonnet out of context, if theyhave not earned the right to wear the war bonnet because it is not just an article of clothing, it is a sacred symbol of bravery and stregnth.

I would say that a non native wearing a warbonnet out of context etc. is dissrespectful to Native American culture as it in not a fair depiction of the native american people as a whole.
If it is ok for the photographer to appropriate native american culture in this way, it suggests that the native american culture and people are less important than the culture of the photographer. this is why it is racist.

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-18 02:54:37 +0000 UTC]

I suppose I can see your point. However, I’m a bit insulted that I’m apparently a “victim of this stereotyping in the media,” as if to indicate that I can’t think for myself. Actually, if you wanted to say anything about me, you could say I don’t quite understand because I’m not Native American. There’s no reason to call me stupid. And even if I was Native American, (and there actually is some question in my family if we are or not); I wasn’t raised in the culture and it’s something unfamiliar to me. After looking at that tumblr page today, I can see why people could find it offensive. A lot of the photographs there involved hipster-looking white kids trying to find an excuse to show off their naked bodies or look “sexy” while wearing the war bonnet. I can see your point about the appropriation of culture in those situations.

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-18 18:24:36 +0000 UTC]

Theres no need to be indulted- it is a fact of life that most people are victims of it- i know for sure i am. Everyone is affected by what they see/hear in the media, but that doesnt mean everyone is stupid. I never called you stupid and im sorry if you thought thts wht i meant. People dont understand alot of the time because they see the native american as they are portrayed in the media.
I relate closely to this topic because my own culture is also heavily stereotyped and appropriated.

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-18 20:02:28 +0000 UTC]

Well, I'm trying not to be insulted but you should be careful with the word "victim". Just like the implications of an inappropriate picure of a war bonnet, that word has implications too. And of course, the media has an effect on the way people think. I'm not going to argue for a moment that it doesn't, but this topic, like many topics, has two very different sides, both of which becoming obvious thanks to the media in terms of the internet. In fact, without news stories pointing out that companies have had to apologize for the misuse of the war bonnet, I wouldn't even be aware of the issue and wouldn't understand why people find it insulting at all. When you say "the media" that includes all sorts of sides, mediums, and numerous issues. Take the differences between Fox News and CNN, and those are just television broadcasts, not even including newspapers, books, the internet including the giant known as Youtube, where you can probably find two different opinions on literally anything. Of course, I understand what you mean. You're talking about movies and television shows and stuff of the like, but I haven't seen anyone on television wearing a war bonnet since I watched the Disney version of Peter Pan at 6 years old. I don't think I need to tell you that this isn't the fifties anymore and most forms of media, at least the publically broadcast ones, are ready and willing to avoid anything offensive. But there's still photographs and the hipsters, and people wearing the war bonnet incorrectly is still an issue, of course. But it's becoming less and less acceptable. Victoria's Secret recently came under fire for one of their outfits, which involved the war bonnet and they apologized due to the outrage in the Native American community. You could certainly blame old movies and television shows for reflecting these conventions about Native Americans, but it's also the media that's pointing out how huge of an issue this is to so many people now. Without the new media, the internet, and even this very photo, there wouldn't be discussions like this to change minds. In fact, I'm sure this issue would be even more marginalized and ignored without the media drawing attention to it.

I don't think blaming the media is putting the blame in the corect place. Again, if you'd like to blame anything, you should blame the fact that my family is mostly European. But you can't tell me that I'm not at least trying to understand your argument. This is a culture that is unfamiliar to me, and a lot of other people too. I won't deny that. And I think this is the real reason to blame for the ignorance of people who aren't Native American. I can't expect someone who never spends any time around a culture to understand all the nuances of it. I'm learning two languages at the moment and understanding all the culture of either of the countries at hand is a huge task. One of the languages is Japanese and the manners are very different and even somewhat confusing at times. And I wouldn't expect someone who didn't speak the language or spend anytime around Japanese people to get it.

Most people don't understand that the war bonnet is sacred. I think we both agreed that people aren't doing it intentionally to be racist or offensive, even though it still is. But I think to make the argument that the media says it's okay, and that's why it is considered okay, is too basic. Certainly, I agree that through the years, this stereotype was set through movies and television shows, and maybe even books. But you could also say the same thing about African Americans in the media. Watch any old Tom and Jerry cartoon involving the maid and you'll see exactly what I mean. That's not acceptable anymore unless it's being used specifically for a period piece, much like the movie, The Help, which specifically went into the civil right's movement in the South. I won't say that there's no more oppression in our country. There absolutely is. But I will say that blaming the media is blaming the wrong thing. No one can really be a victim of the media anymore, because information is readily available as long as you have a computer. People are going to believe what they want to believe because they can probably find an article somewhere on the internet, saying exactly what they want to hear. The media certainly has a place in this argument, because it reflected oppression and stereotypes many minority groups have felt throughout time, but it also reflects people's feelings about oppression and can definitely point out issues, much like this one, that might not have gotten any attention otherwise. I'm definitely not one to watch the news on television, where Victoria's Secret's fashion show blunder was very likely reported, but I'll definitely click on a news story that perks my interest, and read the comments section to get a feel for the numerous opinions to see which ones I agree with. Again, you can thank the media for bringing this issue to my attention. This isn't the first time I've seen this discussion before and I can tell you, if it was, I probably would have brushed it off and said, "eh, no big deal". In fact, this is probably the third or fourth time I've come into contact with this issue and obviously, it's a much bigger deal than I thought at first.

I'm sorry to ramble so much, but I'd like to thank you for the conversation. And I know you didn't mean me any insult, but I'm certainly not a victim. I just come from a different background.

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-19 08:41:55 +0000 UTC]

You and your opinions have been altered by what you have seen in the media. This is true for everyone. the media has created a stereotype of the native american which "hipsters" have adopted wiithout any understanding of the race they think they are portraying. This further promotes the racial stereotype of the native american.

It doesnt matter what form of media it happenes on, the racial stereotype of native americans will always be wrong. That is the only point i am trying to make.
We both seem to agree this so i dont really understand how you keep reading insults intp what im saying. :/

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-19 18:37:35 +0000 UTC]

No, no. The only insult I got was you calling me a "victim". I'm just wondering how can I be a victim of the media if the media is technically helping me see things your way? So, am I still a victim if the media has caused me to agree with you, even though I was just as "manipulated" by the exact same medium? I'm just trying to say I don't think the media is the only thing to blame. I absolutely think it has an effect on the way people think, but I also think you could make a case for cultural heritage. Like I said, it's harder to understand the culture if you weren't born into it. If people knew how sacred the war bonnet was, they probably wouldn't misuse it. I think this lack of cultural understanding is definitely recored and reflected by the media, but is ultimately caused by people being of another culture. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm hardly a victim of the media, even if it has an influence on what I think because of the new information it provides. I'm just learning about a culture I didn't know too much about before. I mean, you have to at least admit that it's hard to say if I, myself, am a victim or not. You would have to know me pretty well to be aware of all the programs I watch, the games I play, and the magazines and books I read, and which ones actually continue racist stereotypes. I'm very serious when I say that the only media I've found lately dealing with the war bonnet is about how it shouldn't be misused. I haven't seen it depicted in a movie or show in years. I mean, yes, there are the hipsters taking pictures of themselves wearing it, but I think we can both agree we can find people doing inappropriate things all over the internet. If I saw a whole group of people wearing black face on the internet I could probably come to the conclusion that it's not okay all by myself.

I agree! Racial stereotyping is wrong no matter how it happens. Seriously, I was just insulted because you called me a victim. Nothing else. I'm mainly "arguing" with you because it helps me learn. I'm not bothering you out of any unfriendliness.

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-19 22:47:10 +0000 UTC]

you are a victim like everyone else because you thought that the war bonnet is just an article of clothing. now you realise its sacred nature you have broken out of this- it's nothing to be insulted about i am also a victim of the media altering my perception of the world.
people see something in the media they believe to be true. some then go on to research it and discover it is not.
yes the media helps you see how this is racial discrimination, but the media also promotes the racial stereotyping of Native Americans. different areas of the media have different functions so i suppose i am using the term "media" as a blanket term, but my point is that people should recognise when what they are seeing in films, on tv etc. is a false and sometimes racist representation of native american people and culture, whatever their own culture/heritage is.
Maybe you havent seen it i years but it is still present and the image of the native american from the old westerns still prevails in the minds of many people. as this is a false and damaging image, i think people shoould do everything they csn to prevent it.

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-20 02:00:46 +0000 UTC]

I kind of feel like we agree with each other, but I'm getting caught up with semantics. Because I'm OCD. @_@

But I can let that go. At first I thought you were singling me out but I can see clearly now you mean everyone.

Anyway, I suppose I have to agree. There probably is that nasty stereotype that people still have in their heads from old western movies. And yeah. I think trying to avoid stereotyping an entire culture based off of their portrayal in the media would probably be a good idea. I'm terrified to think of how people feel about Italians now-a-days thanks to that God awful Jersy Shore show. ):

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-20 14:03:13 +0000 UTC]

Hahaha so true bout jersey shore lol theres an english and spanish one now xD the plague is spreading!!!!

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AshitaUchiha In reply to Metraxus [2012-12-20 17:26:21 +0000 UTC]

OH NO. You can't be serious! Why would they do such a thing? D: I have no more hope for humanity. I quit. ):

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Metraxus In reply to AshitaUchiha [2012-12-21 17:31:48 +0000 UTC]

hahaha

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carollaa In reply to brittfowler [2012-12-15 11:52:02 +0000 UTC]

Thank you there will be always people who won't understand so I'm no worry. Thank you for understanding

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brittfowler In reply to carollaa [2012-12-17 00:33:13 +0000 UTC]

No problem, the person "this-is-not-native" (the one Citrine refered to) on tumblr made a big deal about one of my photos with a headdress. I got 200+ hate mail messages, but also a lot of positive feedback from other artists who think this super sensitive to native items is just super annoying! It's a little sickening to see people commenting on this piece just to assert their "rules" on you.

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carollaa In reply to RedShuttleworthPoet [2012-12-14 09:37:33 +0000 UTC]

Buying this head piece part of money was transferred for charity.
I don't think is nice to judge someone who do not know. Have nice day. X

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desolatesurfer In reply to RedShuttleworthPoet [2012-12-14 06:10:39 +0000 UTC]

shameful silence.

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carollaa In reply to Cudfather [2012-12-14 09:29:35 +0000 UTC]

Dzieki Szkocja

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carollaa In reply to devine-consciousness [2012-12-13 23:13:33 +0000 UTC]

Thank you !

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