Comments: 8
Liam-Nace [2010-12-25 18:50:19 +0000 UTC]
Amazingly educational for this man! Again, Myko, you are of of the few who has challenged my world-view. I will be forever grateful.
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cheekymonkeyali [2008-12-09 11:37:22 +0000 UTC]
You know I disagree fundamentally with regards to some of your premises (and one major one!), but this is nicely written all the same.
Some things which might be taken into account haven't been - that Caravaggio was a murderer, that many "spiritual" artists worked to commission and were plainly not sympathetic to their patron's religion (Titian and friends for example, whose work aroused the Inquisition), that Rothko committed suicide and was influenced by Nietzsche. These are only a beginning of examples.
To say that "They all seem to share a common 'spiritual' essence," remains to be defended in my view. They all contain genius, indeed. but "spiritual"? You do well to put this in inverted commas!
Fundamentally some of these great painters benefitted not from spirituality in the sense that you seem to be presenting it, but from humanism, and an elevated view of humanity entirely independent of the medieval church (which, incidentally views man as both fallen and flawed).
It is our shared history (including what we know of language history as opposed to tribal myth) and shared ancestry which is the real basis for our commonality. Our common consciousness is not out there in the heavens, but in here, inside of us.
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gromyko In reply to cheekymonkeyali [2008-12-11 02:24:23 +0000 UTC]
thank you for the short praises...i shall reply to your post here via notes for it seems that we have a lot to talk about...be aware that i have also investigated the lives of the painters i have mentioned, the influences, et.al., but we are here not talking about the personality of these geniuses, but their legacy and the immenent importance of their works...the idea of cultural unification may seem as a tribal myth but without action there wont be a reaction...by forming my IIAA group we are hoping to elevata better understanding of ARt in context of history and culture.
I am also aware that some like titian and friends have been rebels and i am not here defending the catholic dogmas of the past for i myself have been against them!!! Let me clarify that i am not a catholic but a christian believer autonomously and not belonging to any episcopical or protestant sect!!! My art(though i belong as a member of a local baptist church) is sometimes subversive of the way that are taught in the doctrines of my church. And I would also like to praise what titian did as he revolted not against"God" and the "church" but against the "Dogmas and doctrines" of the dominat church and its greedy/faux in tellectual psuedo-sacred official, such as the devil called the "Pope" and all his minions!!!
Artists are remembered and is eternal and immortal in our collective consciousness becauise of their legacies, their lives not matter how trivialized(which also makes them unique and stand out)is of utter "importance"...when Dali declared "I am Surrealism" he is remembered eternally, and its pope Breton, who accused Dali as Avida dollars have been forgotten at least in the minds of the artists influenced indirectly by Dali and in Art History!!!
I shall send you a note sooner
G
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cheekymonkeyali In reply to gromyko [2008-12-11 10:05:25 +0000 UTC]
I meant the Biblical story of the division of languages as tribal myth, rather than cultural unification, which I don't think has anything to do with spirituality. How many great artists were genuinely spiritual, compared to the number of womanisers, drunkards, madmen etc.? This is what I am challenging.
The problem you face is encapsulated in this statement "If a work of art is spiritual it transcends all--and is the highest form of art." But you start off by saying "if a work of art transcends all it is spiritual." This circular reasoning can agree with itself all day long, but without external moorings it says nothing. I deny that great art is all spiritual, or even mostly spiritual. Wishing it to be so doesn't make it so.
While Picasso was painting Guernica, Dali supported Franco in Spain, including personally congratulating him on putting to death political prisoners. His avarice is not the only thing forgotten about him.
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gromyko In reply to cheekymonkeyali [2008-12-12 03:15:02 +0000 UTC]
Here is where the knowledge of symbols come to hand...I mentioned in my manifesto that the use of the biblical "myth"(which is to say close to recent archeological verbology, or the deciphering of lingual origins as originating from one primal cultural language, and anthropologically, the cultural primal-the "Adam" of cultures)of Babel(which literally means Tounge)symbolises the "contradictory" "mitosis" of "cultures", where "art" as part of the prime culture is one of the aspects where the inherent "spirituality" of the one "prime" "culture" is persistent. The use of the word spiritual of course, has androgynous meaning both "humanistic" and "religious" "sacred and "profane" at the same time. When i used the word "transcend" it means that the flow from the three states of human consciuosness, the material, the mental/psychological, and the soul/spirit, become one and therefore when it "transcends" all states, it is three in "One", and therefore contains all, yet is not all, which is also not a paradox, since as all is trnascended then the "ego"" is dissolved and the once dual nature become no-dual...This transcendent states therefore is the higest form of art. But there is a catch on this, transcendent art is transformative art, as De Es Shwertberger said, continually flows through the human states no matter what the transcendent artist de[picts...One does not have to paint buddhas or crosses to be spiritual...For example i could paint an apple yet imbue it with spirituality, or do an abstract painting as did Rothko(and here i am speaking of rothko's art and not his delusion and hopelessness) at his best. The Zen landscapes have been imbued with spirituality though they lack "iconic" elements...As for cultural relevance, the egyptian, the mayan, and the ifugaos here all make similar artforms...but they are geographically isolated.. Here comes the universal consciousness or awareness....and from this cultural awareness comes also art as an inherent code in man's "spirit"(as you suggested to put it in "") . Yuor denial of the primal source of art and culture will not affect the fact that there exists one true culture, with one primal art, and one primal ancestral line(Evolutionary studies have detected genetic similarities, though i disagree with it on its "theory" of "generations".) as evidence by our collective similarities. Your denial also of the inexistence of a prime mover doesnt affect the "actuality" and "evidence" of its existence. You humanistic philosophy is degenerate since no matter how "psuedo"-transcendent it is, no matter how much you try to condition yourself that such do not exist will not affect the factuality of its existence. What I try to do here is to collect individuals who share the same dissatisfaction with the culture and the Art of this generation with all is degenerate, psuedo-intellectualists, atheistic-agnosticism, nihilistic insignificance, and capitalistic reliance, and present to the world what it has become, what it has once been, "Before the Tower of Babel was Destroyed"...All its stripping away of art(as did Picasso and his destruction of "Art" and of Malevich and his Squares" of non -sensical geometry), all its reductionistic endeavors...all is sterile ideas of black humor...The world have become a restless wasteland of "spiritual darkness"...contradict me or not We will show you and this degenerate world a new way of looking at art with hopes of understanding each other for the better, and therefore, though hard to do, start the unification of the "Grand Culture" of Humanity thruogh autonomous yet collective ways, though different in stylistic approach and beliefs in living is collected and standing together to say that we believe that there exists the spirit that ties us all together as one tribe of many tribes, one art of many art. like the universe though singular is collective and autonomous. Dali has his own reasons, to be safe from the war. But this is political in view, and as i said, politics can never do good in unification. Picasso is a communist, and communists also killed many people. You say that many a great artists are whoremongers, womanisers, etc. i agree...because we are all human...but to deny ones humanity is ignorance. These great artists are "humans" and they work in "humanism" but in working with "humanism" they have unravelled the deepest spiritual essence in their souls thru their art. If you denounce them for what they are and not for what they do then you are denying the importance of their legacy, as if denouncing the entire civilization that produced my filipino culture and your american culture, and therefore denying also the importance of the works of our ancient ancestors, by merely basing it on "personality". That i have a dose of humor.
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cheekymonkeyali In reply to gromyko [2008-12-14 12:59:10 +0000 UTC]
By continually calling those who disagree with you "psuedo-intellectal" you do yourself a great dis-service, especially when your own manner of speech opens you up widely to the counter-accusation (who else speaks so highly of themselves as you?! Rom 12:3 comes to mind). By using the terminology you are also making yourself by definition a genuine intellectual. Others may feel it their right to disagree.
We are already agreed on humanity's commonality to a degree - geographical displacement is nothing when we all share common history - this is true from both our worldviews (whether evolutionary biology or "from one blood he made them all"), so fundamentally we have no disagreement on this except you add another dimension - an unnecessary one in my opinion - the "spiritual." Then furthermore define this so loosely that it is does not mean "spiritual" in any meaningful sense. A feeling of transcendence perhaps? Yes, we can probably both agree on that too (I think - I don't want to speak for you), but art is not the only way to gain a feeling of transendence. The reason I made specific reference to those artists and their personal historys was not to denounce them, but to point out that they don't make good witnesses to your case - and some I feel sure would have been outraged that you associated them with it. I embrace my humanity, as opposed to grovelling around under the weight of "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I'm not falling short of any imaginary being's glory, thanks all the same. I prefer a view of humanity both higher and more in accord with history and fact.
I'm sorry to have to break the bad news to you, but Dali was really a fascist. His safety did not require him to send letters of congratulation to Franco on the killing of political prisoners. Or offer prayers for him. He was full behind Franco. I have no time for Communism either. I am a libertarian by nature and confession and the authoritarianism of Fascism, Communism, and any Theocracy are equally abhorrent to me. All have the same premise - "do what we say or we punish you."
I also am not American - something which you could easily have found out. My preferred epistomology is to learn as many facts as I can and apply sound logic to them to form reasonable conclusions. If other facts become known or some become shown false, then any conclusions which rest on them have to be discarded or modified. It seems the only reasonable way to behave to me.
Others seem to me to prefer to start from conclusions and then keep those while discarding uncomfortable facts and logic. This latter group includes all religious people (revelation = given conclusion), as there is not one religion whose premises remain remotely intact in the face of retreating ignorance. Sadly "revelations" are as subject to scrutiny as anything else, and have proved to be more or less complete gibberish.
I will accept an uncomfortable truth. I won't accept a comforting lie.
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gromyko In reply to kolaboy [2008-12-11 02:25:39 +0000 UTC]
Thank you very much my dear danny, and im glad you nodded!!!
G
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