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MonocerosArts — The Damage Isn't Worth It

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Published: 2015-03-22 20:56:41 +0000 UTC; Views: 11040; Favourites: 20; Downloads: 18
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Description To blame damage caused by over 4,000,000 animals on fewer than 40,000 animals defies all logic.


Public lands refers to lands owned by the U.S. government to be utilized by wildlife and ranchers.
Private lands refers to lands owned by private individuals or corporations and is not under any major jurisdiction by the U.S. government.
Checkerboard lands refers to lands that consist of one square mile of private land that butts up against one square mile of public land, one square mile of private land that butts up against one square mile of public land, and so on, creating a "checkerboard" of private and public lands. Such lands rarely fence off the private land from the public land.
Cattle ranchers refers to any individual or organization who raises cattle for profit. In this instance, I will be referring specifically to cattle ranchers in the Western United States.
Mustang advocates refers to any individual or organization that supports keeping and managing Mustang horses in the wild.
Horseaboos refers to people who believe that wild Mustangs are like Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron.
Anti-Mustang refers to any individual, group, or organization that greatly dislikes Mustangs and may be "out to get them." Please note that just because you aren't a fan of Mustangs doesn't mean you're anti-Mustang. Anti-Mustang people have a personal vendetta against Mustangs. Many speak of eradication and violence towards the animals.
Beef products refers to any usable product that comes from cattle, be it beef, leather, milk, bones, fur, etc.
BLM refers to the Bureau of Land Management, a branch of the U.S. government that is given charge over managing public lands as one of its duties.
Feral refers to a free-roaming animal that was once domestic or whose ancestors were domestic.





Cattle grazing has gone down from 49% (1950s) to only 7.9% (today): www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/graz… . That means that the 4 million cattle and sheep on public lands today are merely 7.9% of what they used to be. That means that in the 1950s, around 316 million (316,000,000) cattle and sheep once grazed on public lands. That undoubtedly caused an incredible amount of environmental damage. And Mustangs are blamed for that damage, when they once numbered an absolute maximum ever of only 2 million (most likely only 1 million). That is simply illogical. And to drive the point home, if anti-Mustang groups are correct in that Mustangs never existed in a population of at least 1 million (their proposed estimate never exceeds 40,000), it makes their argument that Mustangs cause more damage than cattle even more hypocritical and illogical. Their own arguments are self-destructive!

Mustang advocates have been pressuring the BLM to take firmer measures against the expanse of cattle ranchers. Anti-Mustang groups claim that all Mustang advocates are "horseaboos" (which is name-calling, a big signal that an individual in a debate has nothing useful left to say) and since Mustang advocates like myself want cattle ranchers to find alternatives for income, then it means we want America to starve and that we hold the horses' lives above human lives. Not only does this argument make a mountain out of a molehill (we don't want cattle ranchers to disappear, we just want them to stop expanding,) it also ignores a massive variable in the equation: "Public lands cattle provide only 3% of the beef products that America needs." (www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307 …) The fact is simple enough in and of itself. If all those cattle ranchers were to quit ranching and find jobs elsewhere, there would be little to no effect on the U.S. economy be it within the nation or through exported goods. Public lands cattle are simply insignificant to our lives. The fact that Americans like beef is irrelevant to the Mustang debate considering that America throws away tons (using the actual measurement of weight) of beef every year. Wildlife and cattle are killed for nothing but rancher and government greed. Instead of pouring more money and land into the beef industry, the economic response would be to find an alternative outlet for ranchers seeking more profit.






There are a few things that anti-Mustang groups must answer.






1) Anti-Mustang people believe that Mustangs are causing environmental damage, even though they once existed in numbers far greater than they currently do.
Anti-Mustang groups dodge this question by denying that Mustangs have ever existed in larger populations. Why is this an issue, you may be asking? Why do we care that Mustangs once existed in larger populations? The importance lies in the fact that Mustangs now exist in a much smaller population and are only now causing trouble. Wild horses should not be used as scapegoats for range degradation that is in fact primarily caused by private livestock: for instance, environmentalists have determined that in Nevada, home of the vast majority of America's remaining wild horses, the herds havelittle impact on the ecosystem compared with the hundreds of thousands of cattle that also roam the Nevada range. The Western Watersheds Project acknowledges that "the main cause of degradation of public lands in the arid west is livestock use and not wild horses."

The Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act recognizes free-roaming Mustangs as an "integral component of the natural system." It means that horses can only be removed from public lands if it is proven that they are overpopulating or are causing habitat destruction. The Act further mandates that the government "maintain specific ranges on public lands as sanctuaries for their protection and preservation."

In order to remove Mustangs from public lands to make way for cattle and oil drilling, and to fund the few families who are contracted millions to round up the horses, the BLM has made claims that wild horses are destroying natural habitats, competing for grazing lands, and overpopulating. But reports by the General Accounting Office and the National Academy of Sciences dispute such claims: BLM has never presented any evidence that horses destroy habitat, and the NAS in particular delivered a scathing critique  of the BLM's outdated methods of determining wild horse populations. In fact, reducing horse populations in a given area has had negligible effect on range conditions: after massive wild horse roundups, herd areas show little or no improvement, especially in instances when cattle numbers remain the same (or increase). This means that wild horses are not the cause of habitat damage.

In stark contrast with BLM’s assertions, scientific studies have shown that Mustangs actually benefit the North American environment in numerous ways. Arguably the most important way that free-roaming horses help protect their environment is by combating cheatgrass, an invasive species of plant: www.usu.edu/weeds/plant_specie… . Cheatgrass is native to North Africa, which is also where the horse species Equus caballos is thought to have originated. One could say that horses are cheatgrass's natural predator. It came to North America during the mid to late 1800's amid grain and straw packing materials. It arrived several centuries after Mustangs arrived, so its presence in North America cannot be blamed on Mustangs, as anti-Mustang people often claim. Fortunately for North America, horses enjoy eating cheatgrass, especially during early spring when the blades are tender, and (most importantly) before it's had a chance to develop seeds. Mustangs destroy the plants before they create seeds, thus preventing them from propagating. Vegetation also seems to thrive in some areas inhabited by horses (perhaps because horses combat an invasive species of plant?), which may be one reason the Great Plains were once a "sea of grass." Since that time, Mustangs have had their population reduced by about 98%.  Generally, range conditions in steep hilly areas favored by horses are much better than in lower areas frequented by cattle. In addition, the horse’s digestive system does not thoroughly degrade the vegetation it eats. As a result, it tends to “replant” its own forage with the diverse seeds that pass through its system. This unique digestive system greatly aids in the building up of the absorptive, nutrient-rich humus component of soils. This, in turn, helps the soil absorb and retain water upon which many diverse plants and animals depend. In this way, Mustangs are also of great value in reducing dry inflammable vegetation in fire-prone areas, such as the invasive plant species cheatgrass. Back in the 1950s, it was primarily out of concern over brush fires that Storey County, Nevada, passed the first wild horse protection law in the nation.

Horses have proven useful to other species they share the range with. In winter months, they break through even deep crusted snow where the grass cannot be seen. They also open up frozen springs and ponds, making it possible for smaller animals to drink. During the historic blizzard of 1886, hundreds of thousands of cattle were lost on the Plains. Those that survived followed herds of Mustangs and grazed in the areas they opened up. 

Another positive effect of wild horses on biodiversity was documented in the case of the Coyote Canyon horses in the Anza Borrega National Park (California). After wild horses were all removed from the park to increase bighorn sheep population, bighorn sheep mortality actuality skyrocketed: mountain lions, formerly wild horse predators, compensated the loss of one of their prey species by increasing their predation on the other available species: bighorn. Ironically, anti-Mustang groups claim that Mustangs are causing a drop in bighorn and pronghorn populations, due to the fact that both bighorns and pronghorns have been observed waiting for horses to finish drinking before they drink. The problem with the “drinking hole wild horses causing mass sheep and antelope extinction” argument is that, first of all, bighorn sheep and pronghorn are not threatened in the least bit. They're listed as "least concern: population stable." Horses aren't causing them any trouble. The sierra bighorn (Ovis canadensis sierrae), which is a subspecies of the bighorn sheep species (Ovis canadensis), is endangered, yes, but due to hunting and habitat loss, not from waiting a few minutes at a watering hole. Waiting a few minutes for a herd of horses to finish drinking is not causing any sort of die-off among bighorn and pronghorn. Unlike cattle, which will stand in a watering hole all day long, wild horses are constantly on the move. They generally do not stay in an open, vulnerable place like a watering hole for longer than half an hour, if that. Most leave after a five-minute drink. It's also well-known that horses will wait for other large herbivores to finish drinking as well. That's simply how wild animals interact.

In the past, both bighorn sheep and pronghorn were threatened, both due to hunting and human encroachment. Bighorn sheep were victims of hunting, mostly, whereas pronghorn were prevented from reaching their migration routes because of (you guessed it) cattle. Cattle ranches erect barbed wire fences around their land, and pronghorn couldn't get through. But thanks to kindly ranchers making "wildlife-friendly" fences that have a smooth wire along the bottom rather than a barbed one, pronghorn can now slip under and get where they need to go. Things aren't perfect for either of these species, but they're much better off than they were a few years ago, and wild horses had nothing to do with the problems or the solutions.

The main cause of habitat degradation to North America is cattle and sheep, not Mustangs. Cows graze within a mile of water, often standing in it until the water is so soiled it’s unusable for some time, while wild horses are highly mobile, grazing from five to ten miles from water, at higher elevations, on steeper slopes, and in more rugged terrain. Cows have no upper front teeth, only a thick pad: they graze by wrapping their long tongues around grass and pulling on it. If the ground is wet or loose (such as if they have been walking over it for days), they will pull out the grass by the roots, preventing it from growing back. Horses have both upper and lower incisors and graze by "clipping the grass," similar to a lawn mower, allowing the grass to easily grow back. Horses and burros also have solid hooves which don’t tear apart the earth nearly as much as a cow’s cloven hoof. A congressionally-mandated study by the National Academy of Sciences found that wild horse forage use remains a small fraction of cattle forage use on public ranges. Domestic cattle and sheep number around 4 million on public lands. They outnumber Mustangs 50 to 1 in most states, and 200 to 1 in others. That's 3 million more than there ever were of Mustangs on those same lands, and 160% more than the modern Mustang population. The huge cattle and sheep populations have pushed out native wildlife and Mustangs, displacing wildlife and causing them to live in and eat plants that are unnatural for them to eat. Although cattle are rotated seasonally, there are still millions on the land at any given time. Even when a space of land is evacuated, it is typically so run-down that wildlife do not move back into it. Thus, cattle move back and keep the land as their own. It's not logical to ignore the more abundant, newer, non-native animal and choose to accuse the rarer non-native animal that has lived in North America for hundreds of years longer, and also lives in populations much, much smaller than it used to, back when the ecology of the land was relatively harmonious. Since Mustang populations are lower than they ever have been, it's not logical to pin the blame on them.

In 2001, a team of Russian scientists, part of a cooperative venture with the United States, came to study the effects of grazing animals on riparian areas in Nevada. They tested streams for nutrients and examined the desert and Sierra to learn techniques to improve the environment of their homeland. The scientists found that cows, which tend to camp around water sources, cause more damage to the stream banks than wild horses, which tend to drink and move on: "When we saw horses drinking from creeks, we didn't see much impact except for hoof prints. The water looked clean, had good overhanging branches and there was no sign of erosion on the banks. There was an abundance of insects and animals, including frogs and dragonflies and water-striders." Areas extensively used by cattle had fewer nutrients in the water and showed signs of bank erosion and other damage, their study concluded.

The fact that horses wander much farther from water sources than many ruminant grazers adds to their efficacy as a fire preventer. Their tendency to range widely throughout both steep, hilly terrain and lower, more level areas, while cattle concentrate solely on lower elevations, also explains why horses have a lesser impact on their environment than livestock: when one looks at a boundary fence where horses range on one side and cattle range on the other, the horses’ side typically reveals about 30% more native grasses. Their nomadic grazing habits cause horses to nibble and then move to the next bunch of grass, so as to not overgraze. This is why horse range is seldom sparse unless the horses' natural grazing patterns are disrupted by human interference, mostly in the form of fencing.

In the words of Eric Scott, Associate Curator for Paleontology at the Dr. John D. Cooper Archaeological and Paleontological Center; adjunct instructor in Natural Sciences (Biology) at California State University, San Bernardino. He is stated to be the world expert on Equus fossils: "I hesitate to respond because my own perspective on this has proven somewhat unpopular with horse advocates. But simply put, whether horses are “native” or not is actually a non-issue in this respect. The fact is, horses evolved in North America over tens of millions of years as living components of communities and ecosystems. Those communities and ecosystems no longer exist. The other megafauna with which Pleistocene Equus partitioned the environment, the predators who preyed upon those horses, the unrestricted expanses where they could roam free – all of these are gone. And the current living ecosystems have been fairly dramatically changed, both by the intervening 10,000+ years since horses went extinct, and by the enormous impact humans have had on the west – roads, fences, diverted water, and cattle, to name just a few. Reintroducing horses to that environment is fraught with difficulties. I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen – in fact, I’d much rather have horses out there than cattle. But the horses’ well-being requires that we address the situation as it is, not as it was thousands of years ago. And whether horses are native or not affects those determinations not at all."






2) Anti-Mustang people ignore human and livestock causes of habitat degradation, preferring to shift the blame on Mustangs.
We have established that Mustangs do cause minor damage. No educated Mustang advocate will deny that. However, we have also established that the reason they cause damage is because they have been displaced by cattle. Now, that put aside, which causes more damage in total: cattle or Mustangs?

Livestock permits are issued at a fraction of the cost of livestock grazed on private property or feedlots. The fees paid by permittees are often not even enough to pay for the process of issuing the permit. This process has become known as “welfare ranching,” and exists on the back of the American taxpayer. Of note is that less than 4% of cattle utilized in industry comes from public land.

Currently more than 66% of public land is open to livestock grazing and only about 10% of BLM land is legal for use by wild horses and burros. Within the areas legal for horses, the available forage for grazing animals can be allotted with 80% going for private livestock with the rest being given to wildlife and wild horses (wild horses are allotted less than grazing game species). Mustangs and burros are given less than 10% of available forage on 10% of public land. All in all, it makes no sense to claim that Mustangs are the sole cause of damage to rangelands when there are over 4,000,000 cattle and sheep on public lands alone.

Even the world expert on horse fossils in North America has agreed that cattle are more dangerous than horses: "The current living ecosystems have been fairly dramatically changed, both by the intervening 10,000+ years since horses went extinct, and by the enormous impact humans have had on the west – roads, fences, diverted water, and cattle, to name just a few. Reintroducing horses to that environment is fraught with difficulties. I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen – in fact, I’d much rather have horses out there than cattle. But the horses’ well-being requires that we address the situation as it is, not as it was thousands of years ago. And whether horses are native or not affects those determinations not at all."- Eric Scott, Associate Curator for Paleontology at the Dr. John D. Cooper Archaeological and Paleontological Center; adjunct instructor in Natural Sciences (Biology) at California State University, San Bernardino. He is stated to be the world expert on Equus fossils. You can find his information here:
www.facebook.com/CaptainFossil
fullerton.academia.edu/EricSco
www.linkedin.com/in/eric-scott






3) Anti-Mustang people ignore hunting as a possible explanation for loss of native wildlife.
Anti-Mustang groups often complain that native species such as bighorn sheep are endangered and their numbers are dropping due to Mustangs' presence on the ranges. There are a number of faults with this claim. First is that, the last time I checked, bighorn sheep were not an endangered species. I could be wrong, but everywhere I look, they're listed as "least concern." The subspecies called the Sierra Nevada Bighorn is endangered in California. It's a gross generalization to say that all bighorn sheep are endangered. However, let's play devil's advocate and assume bighorns are on the brink of extinction. If Mustangs are the cause of their endangerment, how come they didn't go extinct when they both lived in much greater populations and in different places (before cattle displaced them)? And how exactly could removing all of the Mustangs bring bighorns back? It just doesn't make sense.

It's much more obvious that over-hunting would the the most likely culprit. Bighorn sheep's large, curved horns are one of the most prized trophies in North America. (endangeredspeciesearth.com/big …, www.montanaoutwest.com/sheep.h … , 
wyomingwilderness.com/html/hun … , www.trophymountainoutfitters.c … , www.biggamehunt.net/sections/B … , www.arizonahunting.net/bighorn … , bearpawoutfitters.com/sheep_hu … , www.bighornoutfitter.com/  , www.coloradobiggameoutfitter.c …)







4) Anti-Mustang people trumpet the Wildlife Services "findings" that Mustangs are "pests."
Talk to any anti-Mustang individual, ask them for their source(s), and they'll inevitably give you at least one link to a "study" run by the Wildlife Services.

The Wildlife Services, a branch of the USDA, ran several questionable studies on horses and claims to have discovered that Mustangs are an invasive species that must be removed. These studies are questionable because first, there is no place anywhere that Mustangs currently roam that has not been heavily grazed by cattle (thus damage from cattle is blamed on Mustangs), and second, the Wildlife Services is one of only a very small few of organizations that labels Mustangs as pests. With so few studies on their side and so many on ours, it's incredible that anti-Mustang people expect us to take them seriously.

Even worse, the Wildlife Services is known for mass-killings of native wildlife (calling them "pests," just like they call Mustangs) to benefit special interest groups such as cattle ranchers and oil drilling (www.thedodo.com/wildlife-servi …). Is it any wonder that anti-Mustang groups would support them? 2014 was a very bad year for wildlife. According to an analysis by the Center for Biological Diversity, hundreds of gray wolves, tens of thousands of coyotes, over 500 black bears, nearly 3,000 foxes, and millions of other wild animals were slaughtered by the Wildlife Services. The USDA's horribly-named "Wildlife Services" program racked up an enormous body count, killing around 2.7 million wild animals, including wolves, otters, eagles, bears and foxes. These truly wild animals, which also play key ecological functions, were killed by snipers from helicopters, deadly poisons, snares, and traps. This death toll was due to the fact that livestock, agriculture, airports and other special interest groups consider the animals pests. The USDA simply kills them, no questions asked, no alternatives explored. Congressman Peter DeFazio has called for more transparency and accountability for U.S. taxpayers, and has described the USDA's Wildlife Services program as "one of the most opaque and obstinate departments I've dealt with." Even worse, this agency is supported by your tax dollars! And this is the agency anti-Mustang groups want us to trust? An agency that kills native wild animals by the millions with no questions asked? www.thedodo.com/wildlife-servi … ,  www.thepetitionsite.com/105/81






5) Anti-Mustang do not differentiate between Mustangs and any other type of wild or feral horse. If one causes trouble, then they all must go.
Anti-Mustang groups openly claim that Mustangs, Brumbies, Chincoteague Ponies, Sable Island Ponies, etc. are all one breed of horse and that their ecological impacts are identical. However, Mustangs have their own distinct, testable DNA. In fact, the BLM hires veterinarians to perform DNA blood tests on almost all the horses they bring in in order to verify that they are Mustangs as opposed to horses that escaped from neighboring ranches. Mustangs, Brumbies, and Chincoteague Ponies can actually be separated out by their DNA, and are therefore not the same breed. This is because their ancestries are different. Mustangs are descended from Andalusian, Lusistano, and other Spanish breeds brought over by Spanish explorers. Brumbies are descended from English breeds such as Thoroughbreds. Chincoteague Ponies are most likely descended from a few stray farm horses turned loose by English settlers (the wrecked Spanish galleon tale, although enjoyable, is most likely false), which were later enhanced with Arabian blood when the public took an interest in the ponies. All three have different ancestries and distinct DNA. They are not the same.

Anti-Mustang people make the claim that Mustangs are not a breed of horse based several things: first on the roots of the name "Mustang." Mustang comes from the Spanish word mesteño, which meant "stray" or "wild." Anti-Mustang groups claim that because "Mustang" means "wild," then any horse or pony that lives in the wild is a Mustang. According to that logic, any horse that runs fastest for a quarter or a mile is a Quarter Horse, any horse that was born in Arabia is an Arabian, any horse that lives in a village is a Shire horse, any horse bred by a person named Morgan is a Morgan horse, any horse born near the Caspian sea is a Caspian pony, any horse bred by a Native American is an Appaloosa, any horse that comes from Tennessee and can walk is a Tennessee Walker, any horse bred to be ridden with a saddle is a Saddlebred, any "standard" horse is a Standardbred, etc. This is not logical. The origin of a horse breed’s name does not define everything about the current horses listed under it.

Anti-Mustang groups’ second basis for their claim that Mustangs are not a breed is based on the fact that Mustangs have a very mixed heritage. However, many American horse breeds, such as the Quarter Horse, the Appaloosa, and the Paint Horse, are some of the most recognized breeds of horses in the world, and are all direct descendants of Mustangs. If Mustangs are too mixed to be a breed, then therefore so are Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, and Paint Horses. Quarter Horses were created by "crossing English horses with Native horses." That's what the original documents say. We know the "native" horses must have been Mustangs (since Mustangs were the only horses that would have appeared to be native to the U.S. at the time), and we've assumed the "English horses" were Thoroughbreds, although we don't know for certain. Appendix Quarter Horses are modern Quarter Horses crossed with modern Thoroughbreds. Appaloosas are descendants of spotted Mustangs bred by Native Americans near the Palouse River (hence their name.) Paint Horses were developed from a base of spotted horses with Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred bloodlines. All these breeds have the same mixed heritage as Mustangs, and are some of the most recognized breeds in the world. For anti-Mustang individuals to say that Mustangs are not a breed, they must also make the claim that Quarter Horses, Paint Horses, and Appaloosas are not breeds. Not all horses on the range are "pure" Mustangs, though, because every now and then a horse from a nearby ranch escapes and intermingles with the herds. Probably the only pure Mustangs are Kiger Mustangs, Cerat Mustangs, and the like.

While I have not studied the stud books of all nations regarding Brumbies, Chincoteagues, Sable Islands, and others, I have studied Mustangs extensively and they are most certainly their own distinct breed, having been officially recognized worldwide as "Mustangs," and sometimes "Horses of the Americas," with various breeds such as "Nokotas" and "Kigers" as sub-breeds. They are a breed. The truth is that there is no agreed-upon definition of what a breed of horse is. Merriam-Webster dictionary has this for a definition of a breed: "a group of usually domesticated animals or plants presumably related by descent from common ancestors and visibly similar in most characters." (www.merriam-webster.com/dictio …)  Mustangs fit that description. They are descended largely from domesticated Spanish horses brought to the Americas and also from horses owned by American settlers. They were bred by Native Americans and American settlers to have the characteristics they have today. And yes, they do have characteristics, as much as anti-Mustang groups try to fight that fact. Most Mustangs are of a light horse/Warmblood type. Feral horses that exhibit draft horse characteristics are kept on separate ranges. They are small, rarely reaching over 14hh, with thick, soft coats, thick manes and tails, they generally have short bodies and legs with wide, tough hooves. They are also extremely fast and have a lot of stamina for their small size. Many exhibit traits from their Spanish ancestry, such as Roman noses. DNA blood testing has revealed that in several herds, such as the Cerat and Kiger herds, the Spanish blood was not much diluted with blood from American settlers' horses. Many have blue eyes. So yes, if we are to go by the dictionary definition of a breed, Mustangs fit the definition. A breed of horse is just eventually accepted by breeders, or it is not. Breeders have accepted Mustangs. (www.livescience.com/27686-must … , www.horseoftheamericas.com/  , www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/ho … , horsebreedslist.com/horse-bree … , www.equinenow.com/mustangbreed ….) Mustangs are generally listed as "Spanish Mustangs" or "Horses of the Americas" in directories, registries, and stud books, so if you are looking for strictly the word "Mustang," chances are you won't find it. Anti-Mustang groups are thus appealing to their audience's ignorance by claiming that Mustangs are not a breed. Also, Americans use the word "Mustang" very loosely. To most Americans, any horse that gets loose in the Western U.S. is considered a Mustang. However, that's not scientifically true. That horse is still whatever breed it was when it got loose.

I once came across a young woman who said this: "To put it simply, any old horse wrangled from the wild in the west can be branded a mustang even if it was a horse that escaped from a neighboring farm." This is simply not true. That horse may be branded a Mustang, but that does not mean it is a Mustang. Remember: The BLM actually performs DNA tests to avoid that exact problem. That horse is still whatever breed it was when it escaped. Its DNA and/or heritage did not change. The same young woman went on to say this: "I even browsed a coffee table book about horses while at the doctor's office and it had this to say about mustangs: 'Today, most Mustangs are small, hardy little horses with little to no breed standard.' This would seem common sense, but unfortunately some horse activists are too stubborn to accept this known fact." Now, as coincidence would have it, I happen to know what book this member is referring to. I happen to own it. It's titled Spirit of the Horse and is written by Bob Langrish and Nicola Jane Swinney. I notice the young woman conveniently left out the title and the authors of the book, probably because she's aware that the quote she took from it was taken completely out of context and the very same sentence she quoted disproves her point. Her point is that Mustangs are not a breed because no two Mustangs are the same in any way other than being of the same species (a breed standard defines what similarities a breed of animal must have). This is the quotation in full (it is a caption for a photograph of Mustangs in a corral): "The wild Mustang of the United States is a real "melting pot," with little to no breed standard - they can be any color but are all hardy, with hard feet and a tough constitution." You'll notice that she left out any part that praises Mustangs, as well as the part that defines the breed standard. The book also has this to say later on in the section on Mustangs: "At the beginning of the twentieth century, numbers of wild horses in the USA varied from an estimated one million to two million." The book repeats this two pages on in another photograph caption: "At one time, there were thought to be anything between one and two million Mustang, but their numbers decreased to an estimated twenty thousand left in the wild." The young woman in question vehemently opposes the idea that there have ever been 1 million or more Mustangs in the wild, so why does she quote a book that contains what she believes to be false information? Either she did not read the book and is therefore talking about something she doesn't know about, or she doesn't care about the validity of what she's saying, and will post whatever quote appears to fit her agenda. This type of illogical behavior is very typical among anti-Mustang individuals.

However, the lunacy in the argument that all feral and/or wild horses and ponies are the same stems largely from the claim that all of their ecological impacts are supposedly the same. Anti-Mustang groups will, no joke, tell you exactly that. The vast majority of their "sources" are articles and studies done on Brumbies and Chincoteague Ponies and they expect that to somehow be satisfactory proof that Mustangs are just as damaging. Anyone with a lick of sense ought to understand the fundamental flaw in their reasoning. Mustangs are a completely different breed of horse that lives in a completely different environment under a completely different set of circumstances. Even more so, Mustangs live on a completely different continent than any of those breeds, and in a completely different country than at least two of them! Sable Island Ponies live under Canadian jurisdiction and Brumbies live in Australia. Sable Island Ponies and Chincoteague Ponies live on small islands in the Barrier Islands chain along the coast of North America, not a large, continental grassland/desert region. Brumbies do live in a landscape somewhat similar to the Western United States, but the ecology of the lands is very different. Australian wildlife and plants are vastly different from North American wildlife and plants. Brumbies have no natural predators and are one of only a very few number of large herbivores. Mustangs have many natural predators and are only one of many species of large herbivores. What's more, there are far, far fewer Mustangs than there are Brumbies. Australia holds the largest population of feral or wild horses than any country on the planet. Mustangs are only one of several breeds and/or types of feral horses living in the United States. (North America is not home to any native free-roaming horses, but free-roaming horses in the U.S. that descend from feral horses include Mustangs (western U.S.), Chincoteague ponies (Assateague Island, Maryland), Cumberland Island horses (Cumberland Island, Georgia), Shackleford Banks horses (Shackleford Banks, North Carolina), Banker horses, (Outer Banks, North Carolina), and possibly a few others which are currently gaining the public spotlight.) The claim that there is no difference between Mustangs and any breed and or type or feral horse is thoroughly ignorant and illogical.

So here you have it: Mustangs have their own distinct, testable DNA, their own breed registry, they have been bred by humans for centuries, they have their own set of visible characteristics, they are accepted by the stud books as a breed, they are descended from carefully-bred horses, they are the origin of multiple world-famous American horses breeds... what more do you want? Mustangs are a breed.








6) Anti-Mustang people do not believe that Mustang populations have ever exceeded 40,000 individuals.
Mustang populations numbered roughly 1 million (there was no exact count, but that's the commonly accepted number) in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Some historians believe there were over 2 million Mustangs in 1900, but that's doubtful. Most hold to the 1 million figure. Anti-Mustang groups will tell you that Mustang herds have remained stable at 40,000 for over 500 years (which, if that were true, how come those same people feel the need to "manage" current Mustang populations to keep them from "overpopulating"?). To keep a population steady for several centuries would require the capability to limit its own population, an idea which anti-Mustang groups vehemently oppose. This is what's known as a contradiction, or a self-destructive claim.

The argument that Mustangs have not exceeded 40,000 animals directly contradicts the scientific fact that Mustangs' population growth rate is roughly 15% - 20% (www8.nationalacademies.org/onp …). This means that the Mustangs' population will double in around four to five years if not managed. Now, it's worth noting that the National Academy of Sciences found that the BLM is actually causing this enormous population growth rate by removing so many horses during their helicopter roundups (see previous link). The horses thus spring back as they would after a natural disaster or a plague. (Wild horse advocates thus believe that Mustangs must be managed, just not by helicopter. Fertility drugs are a very viable solution, but the BLM only allots 6% of its budget to on-the-range management.) Now, anti-Mustang groups do not believe the National Academy of Sciences when they say that the growth rate is caused by roundups, although they do believe the NAS's proposed growth rate (selective belief much?) Anti-Mustang people believe that the 20% population growth rate has always been in place. This would would mean that Mustangs have been increasing their population by 20% for the past 400 to 500 years. Even if we start with just two horses (which we know Mustangs didn't,) that's still a lot of horses. Thus, one would think that anti-Mustang groups would be the first to embrace the late 1800s/early 1900s 1 million population number, possibly wanting to jack it up by several million, but no, they believe Mustangs have never topped 40,000. Anti-Mustang groups are thus contradicting themselves.

The BLM over-estimates the horse population as having no natural predator(s), and that the horses double every 4 years. If this were the case, then there would be more horses then there are of the total human population on planet earth. Let's just take 12 horses alone and start from let's say 500 years ago (sometime after Columbus died.) Double those horses 125 times and the number will get extremely large. Even half that (doubled 62.5 times; 250 years,) is still too high for most hand-held calculators to show. The BLM's numbers do not hold up to simple arithmetic.

In an anti-Mustang attempt to discredit the possibility that there were 2 million Mustangs in the wild in 1900, the BLM quotes Frank J. Dobie, an historian, from his book The Mustangs (1952). This is what Dobie has to say: "All guessed numbers are mournful to history.  My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West."  Personally, I fail to see the logic in the BLM's posting of this quotation. In his own words, Dobie says that there were no more than 1 million Mustangs in Texas alone and no more than 1 million Mustangs in the surrounding states. No more than 1 million + no more than 1 million = no more than roughly 2 million. 1 + 1 = 2. This isn't rocket science. If this is the best evidence that anti-Mustang groups can cough up to support their claim, science and history are obviously not on their side. In the end, no matter what angle you look at Dobie's writings, there can be no fewer than 1 million Mustangs roaming the United States in the late 1800s/early 1900s. (www.horse-breeds.net/mustangs .… , academickids.com/encyclopedia/ … , www.masterliness.com/a/Mustang …)

Now, this may be a bit of a rabbit-trail, but I need to mention that the BLM said this about Mustang population growth rates and "overpopulation": "When Congress assigned the BLM (and the U.S. Forest Service) to manage wild horses and burros in 1971 -- through passage of the Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act -- the BLM's population survey methods indicated a total population of 17,300 wild horses and 8,045 burros, as compared to the 2014 estimated population of 40,815 horses and 8,394 burros." Once again, we see the BLM taking the population of Mustangs at the point of the signage of the Wild Horse and Burro Act, when Mustang populations were so low that they needed an official governmental act to save them, and declaring it to be an appropriate population maximum. The BLM and anti-Mustang groups believe that Mustang populations should be kept at crisis level, essentially, barely able to sustain themselves. And somehow, that crisis level is responsible for all of the damage caused to rangelands.







7) Anti-Mustang people are against bison ranching.
Cattle ranchers claim America needs red meat (which isn't true, but that's another discussion), but they reject bison for no apparent reason. Bison ranching is a relatively recent idea that proposes that cattle ranchers raise bison instead of cattle. Bison ranching would help give bison a desperately-needed population boost. Bison burgers (sometimes called "buffalo burgers") are already extremely popular and is actually a healthier, lower-fat alternative to beef. Bison meat tastes almost identical to beef, and most taste-testers cannot tell the difference until they try both side-by-side, and they all say that the only noticeable difference is that bison is more flavorful than beef. The only turn-off for people is the high price that bison meat sells for, which can be roughly double that of beef due to the fact that bison are not commonly raised by humans (which would be solved by ranching them). Anti-Mustang groups' biggest argument against bison ranching is that bison are susceptible to Blue Tongue disease. However, they completely ignore that Blue Tongue is actually a very low risk. It's most often seen in sheep, which, oddly enough, number around 1 million on public lands. Blue tongue is transmitted by insects. It's a parasite that can be easily cooked out of the meat if it is present, just like parasites found in almost all pork products (bacon included.) How many people get sick from pork parasites? Almost none. Bison would be no different.  On top of that, Blue Tongue also relatively easy to avoid with proper care. The Culicoides midges that carry the virus usually breed on animal dung and moist soils, either bare or covered in short grass. Identifying breeding grounds and breaking the breeding cycle will significantly reduce the local midge population. Turning off taps, mending leaks and filling in or draining damp areas will also help dry up breeding sites. All in all, there is virtually no reason not to ranch bison, except that cattle ranchers don't want to change and anti-Mustang groups don't want anything that may promote Mustangs in any way. So not only are cattle ranchers and anti-Mustang groups attacking an animal that is not the main cause of habitat degradation, and not only are they promoting an invasive, destructive animal, but they are also actively opposed to an idea that could help an endangered native species make a comeback. Cattle ranchers and anti-Mustang groups are ecologically dangerous on multiple levels.








8) Anti-Mustang people believe that removals are the best way to manage wild horses.BLM helicopter roundups are inhumane, inefficient, and financially irresponsible. Scientific evidence has conclusively shown on numerous occasions that non-sterilizing fertility control - such as PZP - would be the most humane, effective, and inexpensive option available. Learn more about PZP here: 

The BLM pays its roundup teams $350 for each horse they capture, dead or alive. Thus, the teams go to drastic measure to bring as many horses as they can with little to no concern for the animals’ well-being. The BLM only allows the public to view carefully-staged roundups where a few horses are trotted into a pen. The other roundups are often photographed and documented by undercover or fortunate individuals, and they can be shocking to behold. Horses are frequently killed during roundups. Entire herds (including pregnant mares and newborn foals) are driven at the speed of flying helicopters over land deemed too rough for vehicles. In order to explain away the enormous number of deaths that occur because of roundups and to substantiate their ridiculous claim of a 0.5% mortality rate, the BLM attributes most of its injuries and deaths to complications suffered out in the wild, not during roundups. However, such claims are erroneous. Horses are found with legs completely fractured (after they galloped into the capture corrals at full speed without breaking stride), horses a found with necks broken (after they galloped into the pens in good condition and many of the neck-breaking accidents were even documented), and old horses and foals trampled in squeeze chutes: such injuries, which are clearly the results of the roundups, are recorded by the BLM as injuries sustained in the wild.

    As there may be young and/or sensitive readers, I will not write more on the violence of BLM helicopter roundups here, but if you would like to learn more you could visit my Mustang website (savethemustanghorses.blogspot.com ) or you could Google "BLM Mustang roundup results." Not all the information on Google will be accurate, but you will find that much of it is congruent.

As helicopter roundups permanently remove horses from the range, they thus remove vast amounts of genetic material with each gather. Roundups force Mustangs in the wild to inbreed. If the BLM truly cared about Mustangs like they say they do, they would allot more of their budget to on-the-range management, such as fertility drugs (PZP.) PZP can be remotely delivered to a mare through a dart. It prevents the mare from becoming pregnant. It wears off after several months, however, so the mare can have foals and can thus pass on her genes, she just won't have as many foals as she would if she were un-darted. Fertility drugs would help keep Mustangs from overpopulating without damaging the gene pool, but the BLM only allots 6% of its Wild Horse Program budget to on-the-range management, and less than 1% to fertility control.

Because the BLM manages Mustangs to such low populations, much lower than the natural carrying limit of the lands, Mustangs work to rebuild their numbers after each roundup. The horses spring back as they would after a natural disaster or plague. In essence, the BLM is triggering an endless population bloom. As the BLM wants to reduce the number Mustangs on the range, they perform more and more roundups, which in turn cause greater and greater population growth. The National Academy of Sciences estimates a population growth of 15% - 20% each year. With more and more horses being removed each year, the cost of helicopter roundups and caring for the captive Mustangs is skyrocketing. The BLM pays its teams $350 for each horse they bring in, dead or alive. It costs around $100,000 every day to feed the captive Mustangs. It's estimated that it will cost around $80,000,000 by the end of this year to continue rounding up Mustangs. Where does this money come from? Your tax dollars. The BLM is headed for a financial train wreck and you will be the one to pay for it.
To learn more about the problems surrounding roundups and a possible solution to the problem, read my stamp here: 








9) Anti-Mustang people believe that management techniques are "irrelevant" to how many horses the BLM has in holding.The BLM has around 50,000 horses in holding that they brought off the range. As has been stated, the BLM removes wild horses to keep them from overpopulating. However, removals actually encourage population growth, thus forcing the BLM to remove more and more horses every year. The BLM already spends 68% of its budget on caring for the horses in holding, and that number will increase every year if the BLM continues its "business as usual" attitude toward wild horse management.

Both wild horse advocates and anti-Mustang folks agree that roundups aren't working. However, when asked if they have a better idea than removals, anti-Mustang people turn around and say "it's irrelevant," claiming that the horses in holding are the real issue. While they have a point that the BLM spends more to care for the horses than to remove them, anti-Mustang people are forgetting that the BLM brings in more and more horses every year. Maybe I missed something, but every single horse in BLM holding came from out on the range. Anti-Mustang people complain about the cost of captive horse care, but then refuse to offer any solutions to the real problem: where the horses are coming from. In essence, they are pruning the leaves of the weed without addressing the roots.

The obvious solution is on-the-range management, such as fertility control drugs. While some forms of these drugs still require gathers, gathers can be done humanely, and the horses treated with the drugs would not reproduce for several years, thus curbing the population growth and reducing (if not completely ending) the need for removals. However, anti-Mustang people refuse to consider on-the-range management. To them, removals are the only way... even though they don't work.









10) Native elk are... invasive?
To drive the point home about how narrow-minded anti-Mustang groups are, consider this: Cattle ranchers and anti-Mustang groups are pressuring the Nation Park Service to contain and/or remove elk in order to make room for their cattle. Now, elk are a native species to North America. Cattle ranchers and anti-Mustang groups are labeling the native elk species as invasive. (www.thepetitionsite.com/takeac …) Anti-Mustang groups believe that a native species can be invasive. If that doesn't say something about these people, nothing does.









Sources: 
www8.nationalacademies.org/onp…?
RecordID=13511&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nationalacademies%2Fna+%28News+from+the+National+Academies%29
RecordID=13511&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nationalacademies%2Fna+%28News+from+the+National+Academies%29
www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307
www.thepetitionsite.com/takeac
scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/vi
www.publiclandsranching.org/ht
static1.squarespace.com/static
www.mikehudak.com/Articles/Che
lshs.tamu.edu/docs/lshs/end-no
www.biologicaldiversity.org/pu
www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_rm/rm_gt
www.publiclandsranching.org/ht
www.peer.org/news/news-release
www.thewildlifenews.com/2012/1
www.gazettetimes.com/news/loca
www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307
vegetarian.procon.org/sourcefi
www.publiclandsranching.org/ht
www.mikehudak.com/Articles/CTN
www.livestrong.com/article/372
www.livestrong.com/article/507
www.beechhillbison.com/buffalo
www.komonews.com/news/consumer
www.consumerreports.org/cro/vi
www.merriam-webster.com/dictio
www.horseoftheamericas.com/
www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/ho
horsebreedslist.com/horse-bree
www.equinenow.com/mustangbreed
www.livescience.com/27686-must
www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/graz
Related content
Comments: 37

Ga-Maleven [2017-07-04 04:46:48 +0000 UTC]

Really, the only way to save the land and horses is to go vegan. Animal agriculture is destroying the planet, and there's simply no need to be raising animals to eat them. But humans just have to piss on everything and kill whatever "inconveniences" their greed.

Human Starvation, Deforestation, and ExtinctionIn this journal I will be discussing how animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, pollution, climate change, human starvation, and species extinction. I won't be discussing how humans are herbivorous and simply don't need animal products. That will be explained in upcoming journals.
While human overpopulation is a major factor of pollution, deforestation, and climate change, its effects are still less than that of animal agriculture. Animal agriculture is the use of producing billions of animals for food, clothing, etc. on a mass scale. This includes raising animals for their flesh (meat), mammary secretions (milk), menstrual cycles (eggs), and even clothing (leather, fur, wool, etc.). But why is it so bad?
The primary reason animal agriculture is devas

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 01:36:54 +0000 UTC]

Veganism will cause more ecological damage and hunger by causing imbalance. Plenty of other practices like harvesting lumber, plant agriculture, development, and mining are every bit as destructive as animal agriculture. Yeah beef is destroying the rain forest but so is coffee, tea, bananas, pineapple, soy, rubber, charcoal, gold, copper, tin, and chocolate. Your journal is full of biased sources, outdated statements, and other gross misinformation. How do you replenish the soil with nutrients for plants? Animal sources is the answer and has been used in nature for eons. Veganism is about discontinuing that. Also plenty of little critters such as rodents, reptiles, rabbits, frogs, and more in the hundreds of millions of others plus billions of bugs get killed by farming equipment and pesticide use. No matter what system we follow animals are still going to die you Petafile. Also livestock eat food that we humans reject. We can't digest grass and other roughage. Those places with starvation are being plagued with war, corruption, and bad management that don't allow for folks to farm effectively.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-06 15:47:01 +0000 UTC]

It might slow down the inevitable, but even plants need space to grow, and human population is set to double in less than 70 years.

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-06 18:38:38 +0000 UTC]

If you read my journal you would have seen that 80% of farmland used for growing crops is given to livestock. And that only makes a small amount of meat." The amount of grain grown every year for feed livestock could end world hunger 14 times over. And look up garden towers. They are massive buildings that you can grow hundreds of acres worth of crops stacked on top of each other. Protected from insects, animals, diseases, etc. and uses up way less water.

Again, veganism is the answer to a host of global problems. Check out the journal and links attached.

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 02:18:21 +0000 UTC]

That statistic is based on how much soy is used to feed poultry mostly chickens by far according to the USDA and FAO. It isn't given to horses, pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, or other mammals. Soy can be harvested multiple times in one year depending on the climate and chickens reproduce, grow, and develop at a far faster rate than other livestock. Even more due to subsidies on corn most livestock has been forced off pastures and into factory farms fed corn that grew on former pasture land. The real statistic is more around 40% of grain is given to livestock and livestock eat rejected crops and crop waste. On pastured land water is return/recycled in the soil. Veganism will cause inefficiency and imbalance. We need livestock mimicking nature to restore fertility to the soil not veganism. New technologies and practices should be considered. Spoiler: you require livestock to grow your so healthy vegan food and lifestyle from their manure. Composting plant waste without mixing it with manure or letting livestock devour it will take years creating mounds of plant waste piling up and no fat livestock to sell and thus driving up the price of grain and produce. 

Veganism IS NOT THE ANSWER. Holistic mixed farming in harmony with nature and its cycles is the answer. Veganism isn't a diet based on healthy food. It's madness. People like you will sacrifice their lives for an ideology. Common sense aside. Veganism is a modern first world luxury. No single human population past or present has ever pulled it off.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-06 21:03:19 +0000 UTC]

Yes, but like I said, it only slows the inevitable. Unless something is done to level off population growth to just a replacement rate, we'll eventually run into the same problems we have now.

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-07 02:14:51 +0000 UTC]

Veganism also stops billions of lives being killed every year, will save the ocean, our health, the planet, etc. After all, humans are herbivorous and eating animals is the cause of 70% of illnesses humans suffer from. So, not eating, abusing, or exploiting animals solves a LOT of problems.

And most vegans are aware of human overpopulation. Even if the human population drops to 5 billion, if humans continue killing animals it will still destroy the planet. We have to go vegan AND stop overpopulating. You can't just pick on and stick to it. We need BOTH to save the planet.

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 04:29:05 +0000 UTC]

Veganism kills too. The exact figure isn't known but tens of billions of little critters like field mice, cottontails, and even fawns die just so you eat your salad, soy, bread, beans, and corn and proclaim how much holier you are than us just because you don't eat animals. You should know that 200 years ago most of the vegan versions and staples didn't exist and that many vegan favorites have to be shipped from thousands of miles burning up fossil fuels and poor workers have to toil away under the broiling Sun to provide it. Men, women, and children are basically slaves because most of these developing nations have few protections from people being exploited. Even animals get overworked and abused too. Even more animal products are in virtually everything such as cosmetics, glue, paint, fuel, plastics, airplane parts, car parts, and even computer parts. If you're truly vegan you would grow your own garden, not use technology of any sort, and live in a cave, burrow, or simple hut instead of modern housing. Nothing is truly vegan it's a myth full of hypocrisies and contradictions. Why is it wrong to kill a fat steer or hog for meat but ok to kill orangutans for palm oil or frogs, fish, bats, and bunnies for your salad and soy?

We are not cows. We cannot graze on the land and turn it into fatty acids with our gut bacteria. Our eyes aren’t on the sides of our heads so that we can put our heads down to graze and know that predators are coming up behind us. We don’t have big flat teeth to grind all of that foliage. We don’t stand out in the pasture grazing for 16 hours a day. We don’t have tiny brains like herbivores do. We have big brains like the other predators due to access to protein and saturated fat. We have very low stomach pH in order to kill bacteria on rotting flesh. I cannot believe we have humans like you that think we’re herbivores. It is utter insanity. Show me the cave paintings of ancient man attacking an orchard. Plenty of primitive tribes ate meat for generations had great health and all these illnesses you speak of are recent and affect modern societies and most studies blaming animal products have poor methodology, don't account for other factors, or just plain biased. To blame such new health problems on such old food sources defies all logic. You really need to eat some eggs, fish rich in omega 3 fatty acids, venison, turkey, cheese, yogurt, and a good grassfed steak and butter. You're brain clearly needs it due to your judgemental, nasty, and vicious nature. Animal nutrition has been part of the human diet for 3 million years for a very good reason." Sure, but veganism has been with us for more than half a century for an even better reason: profit$ for big food & big pharma (& even big oil, which uses vegans as useful idiots to promote its "Fossil fuels are fantastic; cows are the carbon culprits" propaganda). (Apologies to nice and sane vegans out there. I'm not referring to you.)

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-08 00:30:48 +0000 UTC]

No offense, but I never said veganism is bad or that we shouldn't do it. I'm sensing a little bit of defensiveness here...?

All I said was that even if the whole planet went vegan, it would just buy us more time before overpopulation caught up with us.

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-08 01:14:13 +0000 UTC]

No, it just sounded like you were against it and didn't see it as something we need to do. Please don't say "defensive." That's what a lot of bigots say when you try to explain something to them. It just gets old real fast...

Not necessarily. So, veganism is about not harming others, right? I've noticed that as people go vegan and become aware of OTHER living things by not harming them, they become more aware of how human population is harming by being so large. The majority of vegans I've met are fully aware of human overpopulation and are doing something about it by either adopting, having 1-2 kids, or none at all. So, that heightened state of conscience is also helping other non-vegan issues. So, we only save the planet by going vegan. And several studies have shown how veganism will save 8.5 million lives by 2050 by providing more food and space for humans. Even more for wildlife.

So, yes, continue educating about human overpopulation, but do not promote any kind of animal eating at all, as you have said here with saying humans should kill bison instead. That's not a solution in any way, shape, or form. That's just torturing and killing someone who simply doesn't need to be killed or exploited. We can save the land and horses far quicker and more efficiently by simply not eating/raising animals for food. Even if cattle themselves aren't raised on that land, they are taking it to grow crops for them instead. removing animal products off the menu completely will allow all that land for wildlife to stay for the wildlife.

Something to do more research on. And I hope you check out that journal because I have lots of links from experts and scientists on there who explain all of this in great detail.

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 06:21:50 +0000 UTC]

You're always picking fights and finding fault and that is a great way to make enemies and earn critics. Your 'humans are herbivores' lie is really old and rotten. No wonder you get trolled so hard.

You realize that in order to not harm other sentient beings (well animals only according to your philosophy) we can't farm, drive, fly, live in modern housing or cities, or do much of anything cause it interferes with and harms animals in some way. Either human wellbeing has to be factored in or not. No vegan culture past or present has ever existed and is unproven. Most vegans quit due to poor health and thus veganism isn't for them. It would be disastrous to force an unproven, modern, first world luxury in widespread practice. Unlike other animals the caring capacity isn't known because humans can use technology to increase and modify it. Otherwise the only other option is to commit suicide and I see zero vegans doing this. (And frankly I don't recommend it because human life is sacred. I state this to expose how ridiculous it is.)

Bison along with other nonhumans aren't someone despite what you keep proclaiming in your perverted darkness. Animals grazing how nature intended are vital for the health of the soil and land. Animals have always been part of the equation; take them out and it won't function anymore. Monocrops aren't natural and deplete the soil after a while and manure returns nutrients and needed microbes into the soil. Seriously don't you see how animals die in the wild? It is far worse than any thing we humans tend to practice. Getting a quick shot in the head is far more humane than slowly starving, wasting away from a disease, drowning in a river, or being eating alive by a predator. Gosh you don't know anything about animal or soil husbandry. And again your journals are full of lies, half truths, and propaganda reflecting what type of perverted person you are just like your shock art does.

You really are far better off leaving veganism and ought to get some serious professional help, and maybe a real life in the process too.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-08 01:49:11 +0000 UTC]

Um, how about we talk about this later, okay?

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-08 02:47:14 +0000 UTC]

I mean, you can reply whenever you want to so... Yeah. Doesn't have to be right away. Something wrong?

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 04:48:58 +0000 UTC]

Go look in a mirror. Ask yourself if cussing out, making vile accusations, and other bigoted beliefs are really helpful. Better yet eat some wholesome animal products cause your brain is malfunctioning. It requires vitamin B12, vitamin K, omega 3 fatty acids, good quality proteins, and other fats. Those nutrients will allow your brain to function but also absorb other nutrients required for health and wellbeing. You're clearly displaying emotional imbalance, cognitive dysfunction, impulsive, and irrational. You ought to visit a shrink to aid you in undoing the indoctrination process and may need meds too. Afterall in psychology there is a saying that "The fish is the last one to know that it is wet." Speaking of fish that would be a great start for you.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-08 03:57:25 +0000 UTC]

Well, I'm sensing a lot of hostility and negative emotion from you. You've also made some pretty big (and false) accusations about the things I said about veganism, as well as about several other things. When I tried to tell you this, you accused me of sounding like a bigot... I don't mean to be rude, and it's entirely possible you're just not aware how you're coming across, but it's very hurtful. Attitudes like that are exactly why a lot of people don't like vegans. I sometimes come across as negative, too, so I'm just trying to help you here. Either way, I don't think this conversation will be productive.

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-08 04:26:56 +0000 UTC]

I'm not being negative in any way. I am firm and to the point when I discuss issues of the world, such as the need for veganism, birth control, etc. but not rude. You're not the first to tell me this, and it's because you cannot see or hear me or my tone of voice. I'm not being hostile at all. If I was, you would know very well. I live with an attorney and thus talk like one. Most people aren't use to that sort of to the point, no sugar coating way of speaking.

I never accused you of being a bigot. And my way of speaking is not harming vegans at all. I have turned several people vegan online and in person, and I came here to point out how your idea of killing bison rather than bovines simply isn't solving any problems at all, and for you to do more research on the subject. I have not been negative towards you at all, simply pointed out the facts and how you need to look into more things.

It's only not productive if you wish not to listen with an open mind. If I sounded harsh, I apologize, but again, I am a firm writer/speaker, but that doesn't mean I'm being aggressive or condescending. I am just trying to help you see the facts you are not aware of so you can make better decisions and help horses and other animals in a far more efficient, logical, and compassionate manner. I've done a lot of research myself and now am sharing what I have learned (the Educational journals especially) so you and others can see the things not often talked about because the large corporations, like the meat and dairy industry, try to hide from us so they can keep making money.

Just do more research and keep an open mind. I'm not your enemy.

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 05:48:46 +0000 UTC]

Oh yes you are negative and nasty too. You are firm but to a fault and there is little need for veganism. You really need to learn some social skills and hold your fire but then again your brain isn't functioning due to your diet and idolitrous lifestyle/thinking. I've seen/read how you treat others who think differently or aren't interested. You'r truly in the gall of bitterness and the bonds of iniquity. Your speech and actions only reinforces the belief that vegans are a bunch of condensending, vulgar, animal worshiping hypocrites who fain peace and acceptance. You're not open minded at all but a blasphemous bigot who makes nonexisting doctrine to fit in with you contradictory philosophy and diet. Your so called educational journals are jokes because they are so one sided and saturated with propaganda and outdated reports. You bully others and broke the etiquette. You're an amazing liar, manipulator, and hypocrite but I shouldn't be surprised because you learned from the best.

How about you open up your mind and stop being a bully and treating others with different views like the enemy. A truce is both sides agreeing not a bully calling the shots. Seriously the more you allow yourself to get triggered/have your buttons pressed the more irrational you remain.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Ga-Maleven [2017-07-08 18:12:10 +0000 UTC]

I see what you're saying, but you need to be aware that tone of voice can't be conveyed online. I feel like I'm talking to my past self, here. I used to speak "firmly" and be "blunt" and I thought that anyone who didn't like that was just being sensitive, and sometimes I still struggle with that, but you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. The internet isn't a court room. People on here want to have friendly conversations, not feel attacked or pushed around. Love and compassion are much better ways to help people understand the benefits of veganism. You should talk to Pupavegan. She's very good at staying friendly and loving even with people who are being complete jerks to her.

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Ga-Maleven In reply to MonocerosArts [2017-07-08 18:46:30 +0000 UTC]

I am being friendly. I think culture has a lot to do with how people react as well. I've noticed Americans tend to be quick to assume that anything said to them is an attack and they are victims, while Europeans tend to take even firm and aggressive talk as normal. All my British friends are quite harsh, but that's just how things are in the different cultures. I'm also Hispanic so, maybe that effects how I talk as well.

I don't think my way of explaining things is a problem, again, seeing how I've turned several people vegan online. I think it's mostly people getting defensive and therefore assuming someone who is pointing out something that goes against their current way of thinking is "bad."

I know how to argue with people. I've been arguing, debating, and educating people for several years. And everyone learns differently. Some need to be treated like delicate flowers, while some need to be treated firmly. My two best friends had to get it drilled into them firmly before they became vegans, started accepting gays, etc. So, depending on the person you speak to will determine how to speak to them.

Also, women tend to be assumed of being aggressive/mean when we are firm because the whole sexism that women are "sweet and weak" and any strong woman is just on her period and a bitch. Men speak firmly, no one cares. A woman speaks firmly, and it's the end of the world...

I've spoken to her some. Too delicate for what some people need. She can reach out to the snowflakes, that's fine. I'll deal with the people who need the "tough love" or don't assume everyone on the internet is an angry bitch.

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TrottingPeryton In reply to Ga-Maleven [2019-04-04 05:28:40 +0000 UTC]

Friendly? No way. The vegan (cult)ure/community has really brainwashed and built up a lot of pride in you. You refuse to admit that you wrong or misguided, get offended, and get others all up in arms too. You're displaying raving bigotry by assuming people who eat meat are as evil as rapists, murders, sociopaths, torturers, and school shooters. You're extremely harsh and seem to get riled up over silly stuff and post all sorts of misinformation. You must've flunked every science, history, vocabulary, and religious subject you took. You must be related to Alexandra Occasional Cortex too.

Yes some folks will turn vegan under pressure but most will reject it. In fact the vast majority of vegans quit due to declining health. Also be careful on what users say online because you can't verify what they claim. They can claim to be related to a celebrity, be a musical prodigy, or have a nonexistent degree. 

You're debating often turns into name calling, tantrums, slander, and bullying. That's not a healthy debate. You often block others too and go ape when you get blocked. Absolute hypocrisy. You always want the last word and act so unchristlike and claim to be Christian too. Veganism must be your savior not Christ. If you want people to listen and respect you; you need to to respect them back. You aren't making peace but causing and promoting contention.

You're blindness, pride, and hypocrisy has turned you into an overbearing monster who picks fights. If you continue to do this you're going to find yourself fired, blacklisted, sued, fined, or placed in a correctional facility/program or something else. Quit assuming everyone who doesn't support animal rights, is nonvegan, hunts, fishes, or anything adhering to your values is an evil person. Veganism is at the foundation a philosophy based on humanizing animals. The whole God telling us to be vegan is blasphemy at the finest. The Bible is full of meat, dairy, egg, and honey consumption. People including the righteous ones wore fur, leather, wool, rode animals, and labored them too. Humans are made in God's image but not the nonhumans and the word vegan was coined in the 1940's while the Bible was compiled centuries before. Seriously find some ancient scroll, tablet, pottery, or other artifact that has the word vegan on it. God tells us to be vegan? You pulled that out of your behind and tossed all logic and facts aside.

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Paraceratherium [2015-11-20 08:39:46 +0000 UTC]

Here are some entries from a beef industry insider. He lamented the state of the industry There are links to other entries he has written on his editorial, but I'll provide them here. Then about a year later there was news that maybe there's a more positive outlook for the industry . Curiously, he leaves his job as editor of Beef Producer for greener pastures. Has he seen the writing on the wall on the actual state of America's beef industry?

Why are the cattle baron white knights here so adamant about propping up a moribund industry? American beef consumption has been in decline for at least 10 years.
www.countinganimals.com/meat-c…
Production costs have increased so prices needed to rise to meet them.
www.meatpoultry.com/articles/n… {623621CA-0B39-4A55-890F-A1AA56AF6B04}&cck=1
www.lifescript.com/health/cent…

And with the World Health Organiazation's classification that red meat is a carcinogen, that doesn't help the cattle barons at all. I'm sure there are those DA beef defenders on here who will decry this as a New World Order agenda to pacify us with a vegetarian diet. What complete malarky! Those people should move out of their parents' basement and remove the tinfoil hat.

Here's a link to news from mainstream media source time.com/4086858/who-meat-canc…
fortune.com/2015/10/27/red-mea…
What doctors had to say: www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-res…

There still has to be some kind of meat industry to satisfy those of us who have carnivorous animals in our homes. You can't be a true vegetarian if you own a cat, dog, snake or monitor lizard.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Paraceratherium [2015-11-23 21:30:26 +0000 UTC]

I'm not against farmers, I just want them to be responsible and not spread lies to promote themselves. It's harmful to people and the environment when agriculture gets out of hand.

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Paraceratherium In reply to MonocerosArts [2015-11-25 05:42:42 +0000 UTC]

Neither am I. They have an important role in society to grow our food and cash crops. The land they own is entrusted to them for purely agricultural purposes. Cash crop is any plant grown for purposes outside of human and animal ingestion such as cotton.

I'm only against "farmers" who plan to sell their land for any degree of rural residential/commercial development or insist it as an option for land use. This is an affront to our trust in them to provide their service as food and cash crop providers.

They can use a lot of reasons about why they want to sell their land: like it isn't economical to farm anymore, none of the children want to take up the responsibility or guardedly their land is a retirement fund so they can have their annual cruises in Alaska and Caribbean. Sometimes it is really no fault of their own when a developer is pressuring them to sell their land. That's when I can sympathize with them.

If they want to sell their land, then it must be to another family that wants to farm it. More laws need to enacted to encourage farming and discourage urban development in rural areas. If they're not going to farm on agricultural land, then let it go fallow to wilderness until the time is needed to farm again.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Paraceratherium [2015-11-27 17:20:33 +0000 UTC]

Sometimes they don't have a choice who to sell it to. I'd prefer it didn't go to residential development, either, but sometimes there's not a choice. Sometimes they have to sell or they'll go hungry.

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iBottle [2015-10-31 19:15:57 +0000 UTC]

Are there more humans than animals?

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MonocerosArts In reply to iBottle [2015-11-01 05:25:14 +0000 UTC]

I haven't done a population count of people on those states, so I don't know. A lot of people live in apartments and suburbs, so even if there are lots of people, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are using lots of land. Grazing animals like cattle need a lot of land per animal.

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iBottle In reply to MonocerosArts [2015-11-01 10:36:30 +0000 UTC]

Of there are more animals. 

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PsionicsKnight [2015-04-05 04:54:17 +0000 UTC]

I think the bison rancher idea is a pretty good one; it will help bring an endangered species back up (John Pinette would be proud-and relieved) and it will give people the chance to have meat while also not just taking care of the environment, but also give people a healthier alternative to beef. And ranchers could still (at least potentially) keep their jobs: they'll just be raising another type of animale.
While I could definitely see your worry about how keeping bison may, eventually, yield the same results as cattle, I also do agree with you seeing it as a step in the right direction. Moreover, while I don't think we can make a solution that will be absolutely perfect, there is also the idea that, since we have one problem out of the way, we can focus on finding other ways to help solve any and potential problems with raising bison.
As for any other suggestions: well, there is one I have. In my opinion, one thing we also have to do is help get ride of Factory Farms (or, at least, make them more humane to animals). From a documentary I saw, I learned that many farms that house cattle feed them corn rather than grass, which not only hurts the cows but also causes the grass and plants to become so wild, it begins to hurt other plants. Now... this was a documentary I saw during my Sophmore year at highschool (I'm currently a college Freshman), so I may have gotten the information wrong and/or things may have changed. Forgive me if my ignorance causes any confusion and/or I brought up something unrelated to the subject at hand.

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MonocerosArts In reply to PsionicsKnight [2015-04-06 01:39:32 +0000 UTC]

Yep! I don't want cattle ranchers to go out of business, I just want them to stop damaging the land. Wildlife live there, along with endangered plants and animals, not to mention how all the damage that cattle cause is being blamed on Mustangs. To blame the damage caused by over 4,000,000 animals on fewer than 25,000 animals defies all logic.

I'm with you: I hate factory farms. They're inhumane to the animals and the meat they produce is not as healthy as it could be. And yes, you are correct that factory farms feed cattle a corn-based diet. I don't know if the documentary told you, but since corn is difficult to digest, the cattle must be flushed out with tubing inserted into their gut. It's so inhumane. I agree that it must end. Unfortunately, what I don't know about factory farms is how much we rely on them for our beef. I know public land cattle provide only 3% of the beef products we need and sell, but I don't know about factory farms. I wonder if public lands cattle could replace the loss of production if factory farms were shut down or at least turned humane. A huge amount of public lands beef products are thrown away, and I wonder if we utilized those, could we still get by without factory farms?

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PsionicsKnight In reply to MonocerosArts [2015-04-18 21:27:47 +0000 UTC]

Oh trust me, I know exactly how you feel; it's terrible to see it when people use scapegoats in an attempt to enforce their own agendas. While my experiences with scapegoats, and the kind of Insane Troll Logic  you mentioned here, deals with other people than animals, it still is terrible when people do this kind of thing. Especially when they are, basically, using it to justify a certain action/position for an actual problem. This is my basic reaction:  

As for the factory farms; I think the public and private land cattle (or, hopefully, bison) can replace the meat that is produced by factory farms, but I'm not entirely sure. And yes; the documentary did mention how cattle can't digest corn as well as grass. I don't remember it mentioning cattle getting flushed with tubes, but that could have been because I only saw the film once a long time ago (I saw it towards the beginning of my sophmore year in HS; I'm now a college Freshman). If you are interested in the documentary itself, it was called "Food Inc." by Robert Kenner. Just a head's up; the film itself doesn't delve to much into animal rights, as it is predominately about the food industry, it's treatment of employees, and how animals are treated. So, while it does have a bit of information about animal rights, it doesn't go too deep into the subject.

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MonocerosArts In reply to PsionicsKnight [2015-04-19 21:50:01 +0000 UTC]

I should look into that documentary! It sounds useful.

I'm not an animal rights activist. I support animal welfare, but I'm not one of those people who's against shelter euthanasia and the like. I believe that if it has to be done, it has to be done. I just want it done humanely.

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PsionicsKnight In reply to MonocerosArts [2015-04-27 04:22:33 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, I think you'd like it.

Oh, I see. Pardon me for my ignorance.

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KalahariMeerkatfan [2015-03-22 21:53:21 +0000 UTC]

I heard that bison is actually healthier than beef, so for health nuts this idea could be very popular...the only problem is that there are not as many bison since their numb were hit so severely, but it would be better. Mustangs and bison have co-existed for a long time and bison, even ones who are captive bred will most likely follow the same rules.

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MonocerosArts In reply to KalahariMeerkatfan [2015-03-24 00:13:13 +0000 UTC]

I've heard that, too. I've heard bison meat is less fatty and a lot of people think it tastes better. There's already a huge market for bison burgers, but they're scarce and pricy because bison are a protected species that isn't raised by humans.

Captive-bred bison might end up being like cattle, but it's a step in the right direction.


EDIT: I just found some interesting info on bison meat:
www.livestrong.com/article/372…
www.livestrong.com/article/507…
www.beechhillbison.com/buffalo…
www.komonews.com/news/consumer…
www.consumerreports.org/cro/vi…

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Kajm In reply to MonocerosArts [2015-11-22 22:04:08 +0000 UTC]

I've had bison, it is leaner and a pretty decent taste.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Kajm [2016-02-19 23:01:08 +0000 UTC]

Here's something I wrote about an interesting paper I came across: the-cynical-unicorn.deviantart…

I thought it might be up your alley! The second and third articles are pretty well-known and obvious (you'd have to be pretty far out of the Wildlife loop to not have heard about those topics), but the first is interesting. Obviously there's no definite answer yet about which continent horses originated on, but this is certainly some intriguing evidence, especially since there's no evidence anywhere in the world that suggests that modern horses originated anywhere else. Everything that we have found so far points to North America.

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MonocerosArts In reply to Kajm [2015-11-22 22:35:00 +0000 UTC]

That's what I've heard about it. Everyone seems to like it. I've never tried it myself, though, because the only time I saw it available was in burger form, and I'm not a fan of ground meat. It's a texture thing with me; it's like it's been pre-chewed, lol. I don't think burgers are evil, I just personally don't like them.

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