Comments: 385
Mingling93 [2022-02-14 23:07:36 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Mingling93 [2021-02-19 04:18:35 +0000 UTC]
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Rilameth [2019-12-04 06:20:25 +0000 UTC]
I feel it is important to also note that whether or not a charcter is a sue is also dependent on writing skill - some character concepts are harder to pull off in writing than others. For instance, the Magnificent Bastard is a particularly difficult trope to pull off without just making an annoying sue, but when done right by an experienced author, creates a character that is very memorable and enjoyable. (For elaboration on what a Magnificent Bastard is, here: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php… )
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
wolvampangelzompyrt [2018-05-13 19:15:01 +0000 UTC]
And the part about what is a do and don't for making characters really makes sense thanka
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
GirlFlash13 [2018-01-20 06:08:24 +0000 UTC]
THIS IS AWESOME!
It really helped me! Thanks a ton!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
MysticVensaur [2018-01-10 03:06:28 +0000 UTC]
Great job but I had trouble understanding parts and not all suborn use the excuse Ausum powers and not all op is bad
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Outlandish-ish [2017-08-25 02:39:47 +0000 UTC]
Maybe being a sue is part of their character, like they might be a robot created to be the perfect human(which would contribute to some flaws :3)
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
KamenOne [2017-08-23 16:05:04 +0000 UTC]
This helps, though I've found that the best guide for knowing when you're dealing with a Mary Sue is this. The Mary Sue isn't defined by being too powerful, they're defined by their challenges being too easily overcome.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
ShurikenSue [2017-08-14 16:46:22 +0000 UTC]
what a wonderful tutorial! thanks a lot for it!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Media-Mantis [2017-02-21 02:42:29 +0000 UTC]
I'm actually writing a series myself set in a world of animal characters. I was wondering if you had any criticism for the 4 main characters (so I can avoid making Sues):
-Marco: a platypus who grew up with only his brothers and dad (his mom died before they hatched) who acts grumpy most of the time. He tries to be a gentleman, but he frequently insults people who annoy/harass him, and he hates it when people dress slutty. He actually hates rats initially (his dad raised him that way) but after meeting the main rat character, he changes his mind. He currently works as a waiter in a kids' restaurant.
-Polo: a giraffe who was raised by his mom, Polo is the "silly" kind of character. He actually used to work as a bus driver, but lost his job after a non-fatal bus crash. Unlike Marco, he is more of a gentleman. He and the others work in the same restaurant, and he is a clown.
-Melody: a rat who grew up in a foster home with the other lead female and was also bullied in high school. She is usually shy and a bit childlike, but can also be quite adult. She used to dress a bit suggestively so she could attract people to converse with, but Marco convinced her otherwise. She's actually been looking for a decent boyfriend, and after seeing Marco's softer side, has a crush on him. She too, works as a clown.
-Becky: a rabbit who- thanks to her experience in high school -is quite promiscuous and a bit self-centered, even if she does care about her friends. She is also a heavy drinker and does not like getting one-upped. She also idolizes a pin-up model, jealous of her figure. She, as well, works as a clown.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Raymond13557 [2016-12-22 13:51:37 +0000 UTC]
This really opened my eyes, I wanted to make a well rounded and neutral wish granter / geomancer character, and now I can, without making him a Mary Sue
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Dragoluxra [2016-11-14 14:13:59 +0000 UTC]
It's actually kind of interesting to see that from an outsider perspective my character would be considered a Mary Sue and I think that works for him, because surely someone who is 'perfect' is unnatural in some way. That works for a character that has been written as a Psychopath because they often appear to be exactly what you want. Of course, there are cracks in the facade, and once the true self is revealed its all too late, but its very, very interesting to note.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Ajones123 [2016-09-11 12:35:44 +0000 UTC]
This is in no way related to Mary Sues but you seem like a very decent person who gives good advice. I just got an idea for a story and plan on writing it but I can't think of a way to start it off including an introduction. Would you please help me? I can send you a note with info about the character and plot.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Timewap1 [2016-09-03 20:11:26 +0000 UTC]
Pretty insightful.
The level of detail on this is staggering to say the least and you really nail down problems absolutely objectively.
Well done.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
NuttyNuti In reply to neko-systeme [2016-07-11 13:52:26 +0000 UTC]
No problem!
And what comes to attractiveness, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In-universe, it is more likely than not that some characters find your character attractive and some not, like with most people in real life.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Miceeater100 [2016-05-31 16:00:46 +0000 UTC]
Can you see if my OC is a Sue? It's under the deviation, "A Pokemon OC. "
If you do, thanks.
If you don't, that's fine.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
NuttyNuti In reply to Miceeater100 [2016-07-11 13:50:28 +0000 UTC]
I'm really sorry this took so insanely long >__< I have been swamped lately.
Here is a quick OC evaluation if you are still interested:
I don't hang too much onto any game mechanics, since I played Pokémon a decade ago. So I mostly rely on what I remember about Gengar (and what Bulbapedia fills me in). A thing that hopped to my eye that Switcheroo and Scary Face are something that Gengars can have in Pokémon games. Artistic freedom is a thing, of course, but unless these moves have an importance to her as a character ("I am one of few Gengars known to have Switcheroo, and that's why my Mom wants me to inherit our dojo but I don't want to!"), it's safer to stick on the canon.
It seems that your character is some kind of Pokémon gijinka/human!Pokémon. I'm not really familiar with the genre, so I can only advice you to make sure YOU are familiar with the genre. If you just made her for your amusement, it's not as a strict thing, but if this character is part of a role-playing group or something similar, consider going through this check list (you don't need to answer to me, just go the list through and answer by yourself):
- Are these characters Pokémon, but they just look and act like humans?
- Are Pokémon battles a sport to them, or a tool to solve an argument, or what they are?
- Do trainers exist? If they do, how they relate to human!Pokémons?
- Are non-natural hair, skin, and eye tones alright with these human!Pokémons?
Then align your character according to these Rules of the Universe.
Talking about the non-natural eyes: Consider twice before giving your character caleidoscope eyes; it is one of the oldest Mary Sue cliches that there is, so it's REALLY hard to make it work without people giving you funny faces.
The major issue with your sheet is that it doesn't tell much about who Taylor is as a person, which makes evaluating her sueness tough. Some helper questions:
- How would people who know her describe her? Let's say that she wanted to go to work in McDonald's and the manager asks whether or not she suits for the job and why, how would people answer? (Not only "Yes/No"-answers, but more like "Oh yes, she is really hard-working! / Well she really has a short fuse, so I wouldn't really put her into customer service job...")
- How does she relate to authority (teachers, police...)? Does she follow the rules, or does she has an openly hostile attitude towards authority, or something in-between? Is there a specific reason why she behaves that way?
- What are the strengths of her personality?
- What are the flaws of her personality? (For that, take a look to my tutorial on the issue: nuttynuti.deviantart.com/art/C… )
- Is she introverted or extroverted?
- Is she self-confident or self-doubting?
- Does she prefer to lead or to take orders?
- How does she deal with her bullies? Does she actively avoid them, or does she try to put against them? Has she told about her situation to her caretakers/authorities?
Hope that helped!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
HNBBTF [2016-04-18 08:29:00 +0000 UTC]
Hi Nuti, I don't believe I've commented on your DA profile before? Hmmm.... Well, To the point I figured you'd be an interesting person to ask this since you wrote the guide on it.
So I'm not sure if you're Star Wars fan, or have seen the recent Star Wars movie, but if you have seen it I was wondering what your thoughts on the character Rey were because a lot of people have accused her of being a Mary Sue. So I was wondering do you agree with this assessment and what are your own thoughts on the character? That's if you've seen the movie of course.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
NuttyNuti In reply to HNBBTF [2016-04-29 12:33:20 +0000 UTC]
Even if I didn't finish the new tutorial (or get it very well started), it's review time! Because brain barf.
Even if I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, I have seen the original six plus recently Force Awakens. Aside a couple of novels and a video game from childhood, the extended universe is not familiar to me (if that matters, given that they rebooted the universe). After recalling these pieces of media plus looking a bit aroun the opinios., here are my thoughts:
I think that we don't really know yet whether or not Rey is a Sue, given that the trilogy is just starting and we are yet to see in full how she is utilized for the plot. She does have some Sue-ish traits that are forgivable to some and unforgivable to others, as conversation all over the Internet shows. For example, some people don't buy that Rey can speak/understand four languages and pilot a spacecraft, while some people find justifications to those in her career as a scavenger. Some people say that things come too easy to her (which I agree), while some people point out that she IS a flawed, vulnerable person who is much more willing to follow her non-fruitful urge to go home and wait for her family than try to do more helpful things (which I also agree). Overall, I say that Rey might be a good character concept who could work in hands of a great script writer, but she definitely wasn't written very well for this movie (a little too convenient events in the plot etc.).
A major thing is that she carries a big luggage from Star Wars traditions; similarly to how it went with Luke, who is basically her cookie cutter model, her first film went to feature her unique skills and Big Destiny (the newest movie went really far to imitate the original movies, even using majorly using traditional, hands-on special effects instead of CGI). The problem is, the Mary Sue issues were not really heavily considered when the original trilogy came out; as Rey is MADE to follow the traditions (read, to be Luke's female carbon copy), she was locked into a script that is less than ideal (character-wise) to modern critics. Other way to put this is to say that if Rey is a Mary Sue, so is Luke -- but he are was not as bashed as Rey as he didn't deput in modern times and did not face modern expectations. Making Rey a woman makes her even more "modern" and thus more of a target of the modern criticism.
I would rather say that Rey's Sue-ish traits are a sympthom of Disney trying to reanimate Star Wars and being here and there lazy with it, rather than writers making a wish fulfillment character. Sure, there are women and people of minorities (Stormtroopers who can actually shoot for example) in leading roles, which is great, plus inversions with some core elements (villain being all emotional and in turmoil rather than cool and distant). This still doesn't escape the fact that Force Awakens is basically a re-painted version of New Hope. I believe it is entirely possible to revive the feeling of the old trilogy by changing more than just superficial elements, so Rey could have been a less Sue-ish character if Disney hadn't just taken the route of "nah let's copypaste the old stuff and replace XY by XX and add some melanin".
However, Rey may still surprise us. The first film may be just building a setting; if the film makers manage to play their cards right, they may use this "basic setting" to surprise us later. You get a happy Nuti if this happens.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
NuttyNuti In reply to HNBBTF [2016-04-26 16:10:31 +0000 UTC]
Hey, sorry about taking this long and still not answering!
The explanation for first is being mentally drained in work; the explanation for the latter is my plan to re-write my Mary Sue avoidance tutorial (is that a term?). I got plenty of feedback of this tutorial, plus my view on the issue has kind of "matured" over years, so I think it's worth it to make a whole new edition of this. I am 99% sure that writing down things, so it will help me to give a better-thought answer.
I still keep your message in my inbox so I remember to reply to this eventually. (I have watched all Star Wars major movies for now and read a couple of EU novels, so I know basics of the universe while I really can't call myself a massive fan, and I'm not THAT knowledgeable of the franchise.)
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
wolfgurldemon1999 [2016-04-13 17:32:17 +0000 UTC]
Thank you for writing this!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Timewap1 [2016-01-01 07:38:44 +0000 UTC]
You know this wasn't bad advice.
Although I wouldn't associate character traits as signs of a bad character.
Overused or cliche maybe but they are just tools in the box.
Though the overall message I get is that bad writing makes a bad character.
I wrote myself a more simplified explanation in my journals a few days ago. The advice is about the same.
But remember, experimenting with your writing is the only way you'll get better with it even if you lay a few eggs.
"There is no such thing as bad characters. Only bad writers". - Me
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
NuttyNuti In reply to Timewap1 [2016-03-07 15:14:24 +0000 UTC]
I'm really sorry about this immense delay! I got swamped by my new work.
Yeah, these are true. When writing this tutorial (several years ago), I was more trying to give some general guidelines about Mary Sues, since I was hanging around in a forum where they were an issue, and I felt that I had some hang on with this. Nowadays I more see Sues as a phase that eventually go over, and that creating a Sue shouldn't be feared. The point here was more about trying to explain a factor that tells why some people may not fawn upon a young author's brand new baby.
I'm not really updating this tutorial anymore, though I wonder if I should. A lot people have picked up this tutorial, but I have had a lot going on in my life lately and I don't really prioritize keeping my old tutorials up to date.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Guardianwarriors [2015-12-29 00:49:13 +0000 UTC]
Hi! If you have the time, could I get an opinion on one of my characters' past from you? :3
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
NuttyNuti In reply to Guardianwarriors [2016-03-07 15:14:53 +0000 UTC]
I'm really sorry about this immense delay! I got swamped by my new work.
Are you still interested in getting feedback?
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
fauIts [2015-11-25 04:11:34 +0000 UTC]
Hello!
I am making a roleplay guide for the group "ROLEPLAY!~" on Google plus, and I will be linking this on the post as a example of how not to make a mary sue character. I hope you do not mind - the link will directly link here, so it tells that you wrote it, etc. Hope you dont mind.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Shy-amis [2015-10-26 02:32:27 +0000 UTC]
This helps a ton!
Thank you for making this!
I'm currently designing three characters of mine, and this is perfect for me to know what to do and what not to do. ^^
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
NuttyNuti In reply to Shy-amis [2015-10-26 06:24:00 +0000 UTC]
You're welcome!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
MetallicBeats In reply to NuttyNuti [2015-08-23 20:40:23 +0000 UTC]
Also, for Roxanne's past (she isn't from any fandom of any sort), her past is just kind of really long and I feel like the only way I can write it out is storybook mode... x/
I mean, it kind of concludes to how she is now, but, the thing is, I don't really feel like having to write my characters past like that... ;v;
I don't know if I should just kind of make it less complicated so I don't have to worry about possibly spending months on writing a novel on my character's past? I'm just sort of confused. ;a;
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Ausland42 In reply to MetallicBeats [2016-04-19 14:58:49 +0000 UTC]
For me, whether I mention a character's past depends on whether or not that past is relevant to the story. For example, if a character makes an unusual or unexpected decision because something happened to them in the past, then that might be worth mentioning, to give the character's decision context. For backstory that is not relevant to the current story, that might be better to be put into its own story or stories. For example, I created a character for one story I was writing, and her backstory was so fascinating, I actually decided to write a separate story just about her.
So maybe the best thing to do is keep things relevant to the story you are currently telling, and then put that character's backstory in its own story set in the same universe.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
MetallicBeats In reply to Ausland42 [2016-04-19 16:16:31 +0000 UTC]
Yeah; that would surely work. ^^ thanks!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
NuttyNuti In reply to MetallicBeats [2015-08-24 17:22:41 +0000 UTC]
Think about priorities. What interests a reader more? Who the character is NOW, or what happened to them in the PAST? You probably already know it: The interesting character is the very reason why the reader might be interested in their past.
Having a long and/or complex history is not a bad thing, not at all. However, don't stress about stuffing the past into the story - yes, the past can exist, it can be long, it can be complicated, but it is usually a better idea to focus on the character first.
For example, think about many characters in Harry Potter; Albus Dumbledore and Severus Snape's pasts were revealed only in the latter books, and especially Dumbledore's past was painted with very vague strokes. However, both of them were very important and memorable characters already in the first book, due to their present actions (and quirks). Also some of the important characters, such as Minerva McGonagall, had virtually no background revealed in the books, but rather, J. K. Rowling wrote about those on her website.
In other words, don't make the character's past a load to yourself (or to your readers). I think that in your situation, it might be a good idea to illustrate your character's past in the form of showing a few key points - this was done, for example, when portraying parts of Snape's past in sixth and seventh Harry Potter books. The portrayal often shows only just flashes, but they illustrate a few most important events that eventually formed Snape the man he eventually become. The flashes are usually not connected together into a coherent story, but they offer the reader enough information about him to the reader.
...I try to look for another example if you aren't familiar with Harry Potter xD
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
NuttyNuti In reply to MetallicBeats [2015-08-29 18:47:28 +0000 UTC]
Exactly! The backstory is supposed to support the character, not to burden them.
Yeah, though consider if it useful to make it a rollercoaster of flashbacks or not (usually perhaps not) and that while the past certainly shapes the character, usually people mind about a lot other business in their life than only their past.
For example, my a male relative of mine died a decade ago; while his wife is still mourning for him and she feels very down during the time of year when he died, she still has a lot other things going on, for example her job and her two children (a teenager son and a young adult daughter). She has also balanced with the new-acquired role of the discipline-keeper of her family, as her husband used to be one earlier and she is more of softer side. Things like those.
Try to sniff your story a bit and try to consider when (and how much) it is useful/interesting/entertaining to employ flashbacks/other narration about the character's past. Try to place them when it would be interesting/entertaining from the point of view of the reader to keep them involved. If your reader gets bored, they give up reading your story, that's why it's important to poke their interest all the way. So, if you make the reader to cram through the history of a character they don't know yet, the history alone must be written interestingly enough to keep them involved. Instead, if you introduce the reader the character first, and if the character interests the reader, the reader can go already like, "Hey, I want to know more about this character... oh wow, now they are going to tell his/her story! Let's take a look!" And then it's easier to keep the reader involved with the history. c:
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CleanClear777 [2015-05-27 00:19:03 +0000 UTC]
My OCs-(sugar-gypsiez & spicy-wishiez & their guy-friends) aren't mary-sues n marty-stus, but my other OCs pink-barbies they're the biggest mary-sues & marty-stus I've created lol xD + they get everything what they want (all things comes easy to/for them) & I can't help it since I created them-(pink-barbies) like that x)
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
| Next =>