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povorot — Dinosauroid and Basal Relative
Published: 2009-02-17 03:17:20 +0000 UTC; Views: 16288; Favourites: 238; Downloads: 0
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Description
The dinosauroid and a primitive relative of the same genus, presumably isolated by geography or lifestyle from its larger, smarter cousin. Notable differences include the shape of the second toe-claw, the opposable thumb, and the smaller saurian's throat-sac - used for communication and display.Related content
Comments: 35
So do the Dinosauroids put the smaller relative in zoos?
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The beaks still seem unlikely if they evolved from dromeasaurs (No oviraptor was not a dromeasaur) it just seems this is just a bit too much like modern birds as if all dinosaurs evolved to look exactly birds ie headshape and the way their plumage looks so in my opinion this is almost as unlikely as them becoming human clones.
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If you look at the evolution of the ornithomimosaurid beaks from their basal relatives over 60 million years, you'll find that a lot can change. Perhaps dinosauroids would not look exactly bird-like. However, you're willfully overstating the case by putting human-like dinosauroids on the same level of probability as bird-like ones.
First, try to puzzle out how/why I got to this point, and then evaluate the concept against some new criteria. Why would corvids, for instance, be a basis for this particular dinosauroid model? Why this plumage? What are the environmental/biological conditions that I'm searching for solutions for? What possible reasons could have lead me to develop this particular model? If you can figure out these reasons (which are not particularly complex) and you deem them irrelevant or incorrect, then come to me with a revised model and wow me with your reasoning. Otherwise, don't bother.
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Do yo think that other mammals would take over like our modern scenario or that some dinosaurs species would acompany the dinosauroids? Sorry I'm asking so many questions, this subject just interests me alot
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Well, the scenario that I'm putting forth is that dinos dominate until the miocene, with the spread of grasslands. Once grasslands are the dominant ecosystem, rodent and ruminant-type mammals would at least become the most prosperous herbivores. However, there'd still be a lot of room for theropod predators and larger herbivores.
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I made a drawing on an avian similar to this, and I was wondering if you thought these avian-like critters would have any ability to digest grain.
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Why wouldn't they? Most grain-eating birds, and many herbivorous theropod dinosaurs digested plants with crops full of stones - I figured the same mechanism would work for the dinosauroid.
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So does this mean there are three Avisapiens species in this world? Two sapient - yours and nemo-ramjets - and one "primitive relict"?
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Would the "primitive relict" be sort of like how great apes are in relation to humans?
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What's the rationale for the dinosauroid's development of intelligence? The need for multiple and more complex hunting strategies?
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Well, I touch on it a little here ( [link] ), but in general, I figured the dinosauroids followed a similar route to developing intelligence as men - as unspecialized, intelligent omnivores, the only way to survive in the harshness of the pleistocene was to develop better intelligence - greater mental flexibility and social adaptability, greater ingenuity in tool use...
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I'd take that they evolved from omnivorous troodonts bordering on herbivores, and due to a lack of specialization for catching small animals and whatnot, used elements from their environment?
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Generally yes. As this is now part of a collaboration, the full lineage is changing, but it'll still be, at least, of deinonychosaurian descent.
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So good. The beaks really intrigue me. This is not necessarily a criticism, but it makes me wonder if hard bird beaks were an (and I hate to use the next word in terms of evolution) inevitable trait. I don't know much about beak evolution, but we pretty much know that birds came from theropods, with their toothy jaws. I'll have to do more research, I suppose...
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Yeah... well, in all honesty, a big part of designing these fellas was giving them a useful manipulator that wasn't just a set of hands. After learning more about corvid tool use (and looking at nemo's dino) I had to go with the beak as manipulator.
In terms of it being a likely development for a theropod dinosaur, you have to remember that ornithomimosaurs and oviraptors both independently evolved toothless beaks to support what appears to be very omnivorous lifestyles. So beaks: inevitable, maybe not, but plausible? Hell yes.
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Of course; how could I have forgotten the ornithomimids and oviraptors!
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I'm very impressed by how natural these species look. Do these creatures represent a relationship similar to us and chimpanzees? Marvelous work!
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Yeah, exactly the relationship I was aiming to represent - I'm glad it was clear enough.
And thanks for the compliment!
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Yeah, it came across all right. Kind of makes you wonder, if they have a chimpanzee counterpart- could there be something more akin to the homo sapiens and neanderthalensis relationship out there to be discovered...?
Just a thought. 
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Oh, will do.
(And it's funny you should be thinking about a sapiens-neanderthal type relationship... I've got something coming up in the future that might just jive with that...)
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What's the range of movement of their arms and hands with that kind of posture? Any plans on illustrating those eventually?
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I've only got a vague idea of their arm limitations - I'd only do a proper range of motion illustration if I spent some time getting to know the range of motion of dromaeosaur arms a little better. For the idea I have, just think of arms that move kind of like a bird's and kind of like a tree-kangaroo's.
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Since elsewhere you mentioned that their main manipulator is the beak, does that mean that they would cooperate more since individuals cannot really do everything on their own? That packs spend so much time together and get to know each other so well and act for one another, that they might be considered as one 'individual'? I just think they could do a little bit more with their arms.
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Well, I saw them as being almost as dextrous as us with their two hands and beak - they can still do plenty of things with their arms, but their beak/neck muscles are sturdier then their arms and thusly they'd rely on the beak more for tool manipulation. I wasn't thinking of having them quite that communal, though.
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This is more about dinosauroids in general than only your brilliant creations--using the beak gives them greaer dexterity since the shape of their shoulders does not provide that much of a range of movement greater than any tetrapod, right? But would possibly evolution migrate the shoulder bone a bit further up to give them more movement, not like us, but close? Don't birds almost have the same range of motion that we have?
Still, your way does create some interesting dilemmas as regards what they're able to do and how to do it. Personally, I'd keep the posture for the dinosauroids but would likely give them greater dexterity.
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I think it's definitely possible for the shoulder to migrate up the body after a few hundred thousand years, but it would still probably not have the range of motion of an ape shoulder or bird shoulder. But yeah, I mostly kept the limited range of motion of the shoulder like it is to make it more interesting - like how they'd solve the same problems we faced, and the solutions they might come up with. It's a lot of fun.
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Wow...amazing! So can the smaller species be compared, to the way we and chimps are compared ?
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Exactly! Imagine dinosaurs developing hyena-level intelligence during the miocene on the african savannah, spreading north, and adapting for intelligence during the ice age in central asia and along the russo-siberian plains... this is the evolutionary future I imagined for the dinosauroids.
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do you think Raptors could develop like dinosauroid like the troodon aswell?
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Well, providing the creature is social and has a lifestyle requiring higher-then-usual brain power (see crows, parrots, elephants), I don't see why not. As I'm sure you know, Nemo's been doing a series of awesome drawings on just this subject.
[link]
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So your troodontids are of african origin. Perhaps they got isolated there during the Eocene/Paleocene/late Cretaceous?
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But I thought troodons favored cooler climates and lived in Alberta and the surrounding area... Assuming they migrated they would have gone to asia and then into the balkans, europe, africa, etc. no?
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Troodontids actually have a very wide distribution on Laurasia, and its not very far fetched to suggest they invaded southern landmasses at certain points, since other maniraptors did
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