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povorot β The Spear-thrower
Published: 2009-03-01 20:02:41 +0000 UTC; Views: 16569; Favourites: 200; Downloads: 0
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Description
I've been puzzling over dinosauroid tech for a long time, and have been particularly frazzled by the lack of ranged weapons. This has mainly been because of the dinosauroid body-plan, which, working from an arboreal ancestor roughly similar in build to a tree-kangaroo, lacks the ape-like range of motion in the arms that make them so great for throwing shit. To achieve the range of motion necessary to successfully throw things, the dino in question needs to adopt a more upright posture - one which, I'm not entirely pleased to announce, is rather man-like, something I've been trying to avoid through this project. For the sake of technological advancement, however, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.Anyways, this is the first attempt at a ranged weapon - a saurian atlatl. The other dominant human ranged weapon, the bow, isn't a realistic option (again, due to a more restrictive range of motion in dino arms). However, non-returning boomerangs might be cool - they've been developed numerous times in human history, from australia to poland (where they found a mammoth-tusk boomerang some 30,000 years old!), so having them part of the dinosauroid arsenal might not be too ridiculous.
Thoughts?
Edit: The marvelous and miraculous IRIRIV did this [link] bit of art that has, in fact, supplanted and replaced this image! Forget this ape-chauvinist technology!
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Comments: 52
A pair of handheld shields would work pretty well in conjunction with the face-rapier I think. Maybe even have bright ribbons hanging from the shields to hide one's footwork and obscure your silhouette.
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One obvious solution is to craft a thagomizer of leather and horn for their tails. Nice to have if something is chasing you.
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oh shit that's a good idea! maybe with some reinforceing rods or something along the tail, to keep them from snapping vertebra
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Plus, you get to use the word "thagomizer", which is always fun.
Anyhow, I was also thinking of something like a rapier built into a face mask.
Anything birdlike is going to have the physical and mental structures to deliver a precise peck, the same way humans have the physical and mental structures to throw accurately.
Also, a beak-rapier being in the center of the head would let them sight along it like a gun barrel.
Dinobird fencing masters could gut a flea.
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heh me and memo kosemen had some similar thoughts - memo did a drawing ages ago of a dino-sword with sights, tho i dont know if he ever put it online... here's something similar i did a few months agoΒ www.instagram.com/p/BM3CX7lhIKβ¦
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My own avians have something similar. A lot of their weapons are simply accents to their own bodies. Battle spurs on the legs and spines along the tail and similar.Β
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Yeah battle spurs are a good idea - the challenges of making weapons for non-humans!
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Yep. Especially when they have such a different physiology. Mine are interacting with more modern humans, so Im working on gun modifications as well.
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Forgive me for jumping in, but after reading TheHarpyEagle's suggestion of spurs I had an idea I thought could compliment it: You could also take inspiration from the Legend of the Guardians (the Ga'Hoole owl movie) - the owls had gauntlets on their feet withΒ sword-like talon sheathes, while the bats had a similar extension that sat on their wing-arm and had a long blade running parallel to the leading edge of their wings. Β Obviously not an exact copy, but I'm sure there's multiple ways to interpret from the basic premise 
I myself enjoy designing dragons, creatures and various non-humanoid aliens and their surrounding cultures, tools, etc. Nice to see I'm not the only one striving for realism, and at such an excellent quality of artistic skill and realistic anatomies to boot! Thank you for sharing your work with the rest of us
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I quite like the idea of a wrist dagger/blade.
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A boomerang would work as a more primitive ranged weapon. As the species matures, perhaps they could be supplanted by something like a throwing knife?
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Why not just have them use blowguns for ranged? They're considerably easier to make than a bow, much more primitive (which seems to be the theme you've got), and the physiology readily allows for it.
A rabbitstick is the 'non-returning' boomerang you described. A pretty efficient little thing.
You could also explain that culturally, they don't have ranged weapons -- not all cultures fought from a distance, and with the physiology, it would be an easy thing to explain.
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How does a blowgun work when you have a beak?
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The mouth piece could be carved into a different shape that fits snugly into the entrance of the throat so they could focus a strong exhale into it. Simple, actually.
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Wow. I really like this design. As for a bow, what if it were pulled back with the foot? Is that doable?
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The problem with most designs like that is this - how would such a design culturally evolve? How could you have a useful transitional tool between stick and bow?
So I don't know. I don't think so, but y'never know.
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New wanderer again. Yar yar.
Re: Bows. I'm not certain yet the manners the dinos can position their hands in front of their beaks. But if they can in the manner I'm thinking, they could use a bow--horizontally. And pull the string with their beaks. It would work out well I think with how they seem to grip. Or failing they it could be braced against their chest. Not really a hunting weapon though, more war-ish due to the awkwardness.
Can they manage bolos? They aren't exactly thrown like a rock is, they could rely on the centrifugal force.
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If they have long enough arms like modern birds with their wingspan, but avisaipens are not designed to fly.
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(Hmm - I dunno. It's neat, though, that two people, over the course of the same day, both commented on this image.)
That's true - bolos might work, though aiming them would be very difficult (I'm imagining a dino throwing it sideways from the beak). But with all these thrown weapons, I have a hard time making them look natural and not just like awkward human toys in the dinos' claws.
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First, let me thank you for replying to me.
Why couldn't they use their forelimbs? Hook a finger into a loop extend arm to the side and rotate the arm slightly at the shoulder; smaller versions of the motions used for flight. Considering the limitations it might be less an entangling bolo and more a means of acceleration for a blunt object.
Something just occurred to me with how you described the throwing of bolos sideways with the beak. A length of leather with otherwise unusable obsidian flakes in it. Propeller or doom or some sort of war whip? (Would probably be extra nasty on the tail.)
I see what you mean about not wanting it to look like toys, or caricatures.
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Basically, like a sling, right? Maybe. Not getting caught on the claws might be an issue, though...
I like the war-whip idea!
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How would using a mounted bow work? Say the dino sticks one end of a longbow into the ground, and pulls back on the string with it's beak... Though probably too cumbersome.
Hmmm... This makes slings pretty difficult too. On the other hand, there are lots of ways to use a string to transfer energy into a projectile. Maybe they'd have come up with something entirely different...
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And honestly, I think I may simply not have projectile weapons for most of dinosauroid history. It's looking like projectile weapons would simply be too counter-intuitive to arise naturally, the more work I do.
IRIRIV helped me out with an idea here - [link] - but how would that spontaneously/naturally ever develop? There's no natural precedent for it. If it were to develop, it would have to be a fairly late development (ie neolithic/chalcolithic, once sedentary societies have started to develop more social and technological complexity).
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Well, true, but just because they're sapient doesn't mean they have to develop as quickly as we did. Humans spent most of their time as a species as hunter-gatherers, it's only relatively recently we've advanced from that stage to a largely sedentary lifestyle. The dinosauroids might not feel a particular emphasis to advance technologically so long as physically speaking, they're up to the required tasks of hunting. Most prey would still be easily take down with spears-It's been a long enduring weapon for us, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be for them. It's only when the population grows large enough that conflicts of interest emerge that more advanced weapons would become a priority-Until then, they might be content with pointy sticks and knives.
As for the atlatl, well, many inventions in our own history occurred by accident, and making connections between events in relation to your environment is a key requirement of intelligence. A dinosauroid might note how leather snaps and springs, similar to it's tail. It might throw a stick a short distance and study how it moved, and reason that if it threw a stick with something stronger and more flexible, it would go further. Trial and error, solving problems, and it's not too unlikely they'd figure it out. If we figured out how to apply force to taut tendons to launch arrows, a species of similar intelligence would be able to figure out kinetic energy and ways of exploiting it.
That, or a dinosauroid was trying out a tail clip to hold it's spear because it thought it'd be easier, a noise scared it and made it swing it's tail, and off went the spear. From there, history.
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I really like the spin you took on this - trial and error/accidents can give a sapient mind the insight it needs. I'm feeling a little better on including the tail-spear-chucker as a neo/chalcolithic addition, now...
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Well, my intro to archaeology teacher once dumped a load of rocks and sticks down in the classroom and told us to make some tools and weapons. You'd be surprised at what you can come up with, even in just the space of a few hours, with trial and error, accidents, and little bursts of inspiration. I'm happy to help.
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A note about bows: perhaps they can fire a kind of longbow using an arm to held the bow and a leg to tense the string, while the other hand held more arrows?
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I think they wouldn't develop the crossbow for a long time, if at all. It would be a logical development of the bow, which they would be unable to use. They might get to it from a round-about way eventually of course.
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Yeah - I was thinking the same thing. If they were to find it at all, it'd be from some weird roundabout way.
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They would probably get it after they developed algebra though. Unless they figured out some kind of gunpowder first. Or Greek Fire. Dinos with napalm, the greatest thing ever.
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Would a bow-and-arrow really be diificult for a dinosauroid? Birds aren't dinosauroids, and they can extend their wings way out from their bodies for display. And how about cross-bows?
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Well, hypothetically, they could fire a bow sideways, but the way the therapod hand moves when the arm is extended versus relaxed/retracted might make pulling the string awkward. And honestly, I'm not sure whether or not they even need thrown weapons - there's been human cultures that have done pretty well without.
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I mean, it wouldn't ALWAYS have to move around in this semi-upright position; it seems to only be necessary (and more natural IMO) to have them rear up more or less exclusively when using the weapon.
I see a pack running down a struthiomorph herbivore in that aerodynamic horizontal (i.e. theropod) position before reaching a viable firing range and/or vantage point (like a rock or a tree trunk or something), rearing up, taking aim, and throwing. Atlatls are designed to increase the range of a spear exponentially, I've seen them used before and experts can really throw them far as all hell; even with time taken up by having to stop, aim, and fire whatever they'd be chasing wouldn't have a whole lot of time to make it beyond reach.
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Yeah - it's the kind of "artificial" posture that could perhaps be held in a slow walk, but definitely not for hours or while running. I liked the atlatl as a thrown weapon just because of that - it tremendously increases striking range and power. This is impressive in people, and while it wouldn't be as impressive with the little "five-year-old" arms of the dinosauroid, it would be one hell of a lot better then a hand-thrown spear.
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They should used hollow building materials for their spears. Light weight and strong, inspired by their own bones.
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From someone that doesn't know anything about this subject really,..... could a similar device to the atlatl be positioned and tied to the bace of the tail? He could bow low facing the prey arch his back and flick his tail, projecting it over his body?
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I meant to say tip of the tail, and I spelled base wrong. Ahhhhhh I need some coffee....
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Haha! Don't worry about it.
That's not a bad idea, though - the only problem would be using it. Loading a spear into that might be a little awkward for a solitary dino, and as a hunting weapon, a two-part team is never as agile as one.
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No, no, its okay, the tail propelled atlatl is a great idea, the error however is positioning the spear over the back of the animal, it should be placed to a side, parallel it's the body instead. 3 reasons:
- Dinosaurs horizontal tail movements are stronger and faster than hotizontal ones.
- A dinosaur can move his arms to the sides of his body and that way it would be able to load his own weapon.
- You can keep a perfectly horizontal body plan.
To full range and power they should not only swing their tails, but also violently turn their whole body in the same direction, it'll might look odd in motion, but I think it's by far the best option.
I might even sketch it if you want me to...
Ho, and by the way about this other image
[link]
I think a stabbing movement with the point of the weapon facing backwards is much more apropiate for a dinosaur or a bird, since it would use the pectoralis major, large wings used to move wings down or backwards in this case, instead of the pectoralis minor, used to move the wings up or foreward.
Ho, and by the way, your dinosauroids are awesome!
Keep them up!
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Seriously, do up a sketch - the idea sounds perfect. I was still uncomfortable with the arm-driven atlatl - but it's hard to think of thrown weapons beyond the human/ape range of motion (and experience). Also, I don't fully understand dinosaur anatomy, mainly from a lack of close study (by this, I mean I don't really know the full extent of the relationships between muscle and action on a therapod) so having someone who DOES have that understanding lend a hand is fuckin' awesome.
With the edged weapons, I'm glad you brought that up - I had kind of pushed aside hand-held weapons for the time being, actually. This changes everything...
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Well I'd love to help.. I'm not so much of an expert either, but I do work with people who is and I'm really keen on dinosaurs, so I would be glad to give a hand to anyone who needs it.
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Sorry,
- Dinosaurs horizontal tail movements are stronger and faster than vertical ones.
And
since it would use the pectoralis major, large muscles used to move wings down or backwards in this case
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Yeah, I guess if I was one of these guys I would stick to fancy snares and traps. Or running my food down "bare clawed" hehe.
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Interesting, I have wondered about this myself. I think their is a old topic on the spec forums.
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This may sound incredibly stupid, but have you considered a yo-yo? It's a toy now, but was used as a weapon in the Phillipines, the idea being that it was a projectile that comes back to you. A very small movement of the wrist would translate into a lot of killing power.
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The problem with the yo-yo is just that- it's a toy now. It's not a stupid idea, but I don't think an audience would take dinosaurs with yo-yos seriously. I'm glad your were thinking out of the box, though - with a project like this, you gotta do a lot of that.
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Well it depends.
I mean, I've always considered clowns funny, until I saw 'It'.
I think context is everything in this case. If you can make a yo-yo work for you as a weapon, why not?
It's not as if people keep on thinking of javelins or boomergans as weapons, when they're not used as such anymore, but it doesn't mean they can't be used either.
I'd say go for it.
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Ah. This thrower mechanism looks like it works well. Since I saw your characters with spears I was doing a bit of thought too on how they could throw em and this looks like it works quite well. As for Other Ranged weapons. Well although a normal bow wouldn't work I could see this critter using a modified cross bow of sorts. Actually I think it's limited range of motion might be a good think. It prompts the species to think creatively to overcome their physical limitations. Overcoming our physical short comings is what's motivated a lot of our technology.
And on the note of this pose. I could well see it as a natural one for this thing to say climb a tree or at least to start up said tree or to be able to reach up and pick off low hanging fruits. So there's a multitude of ways to rationalize this pose here as just a stance to make it easier to do something it's natural pose couldn't.
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