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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-10-31 15:23:37 +0000 UTC]

Funny thing, when Sonic Boom came out, I hated it so much to the point where I said "Anyone could do better! I could do better!" And that's how I started making a concept of a new Sonic canon that is just that. Everything is completely reset(like in the beginning of TMNT 2012) and the characters would be re-introduced one by one. Originally, it was a "What if Sonic and Tails never met?" kind of AU where Tails works for Eggman and Sonic is his enemy and Knuckles is a cyborg, but I dropped most of that for a more realistic Sonic canon that could actually work as a TV show rather than a fanfic. Welp, time to take over the SEGA headquarters.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-10-31 16:11:06 +0000 UTC]

well the concept of my concept for my comic Sonic Odyssey is basically my own reset Sonic universe like the 2012 Ninja Turtles, and the set up would be kind of like a blend of AoStH and Satam in that it would focus on Sonic and Tails running around the planet Mobius which is ruled by Robotnik and Sonic and Tails are freelance Freedom Fighters who would team up with other Freedom Fighter teams and other adventurers. and I've been wanting someone to reimagine Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts in a similar fashion to how Bebop and Rocksteady have been reimagined so that they are more intimidating (or atleast puts up much more of a fight) while still keeping their comedic elements (I was really disappointed when the rebooted the comics that they just had the AoStH robots as Breezie's butlers, but their reimagings of Breezie and Von Schlemmer were good though).

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-11-05 19:19:18 +0000 UTC]

That does sound interesting, but I don't think I've actually watched enough AoStH and SatAM to properly imagine it. I'm not even sure how to make the AoStH robot trio more threatening without it feeling off. They were just silly in the original, rebooting them into a more serious form without it ending up as kind of weird and out of character for them would be pretty hard to pull off. At least Rocksteady and Bebop were created with dangerous animals in mind, even in the 1980s cartoon Kraang said something along the lines of "We're lucky that the Turtles are only turtles, imagine what we would have to put up with if Splinter raised lions or something." when coming up with the plan for these two. Rhinos are huge and bulky and can pierce you with their horn and trample you to death in an instant while warthogs are more adaptable and aggressive(especially when they're having piglets) and they have a really nasty bite. Scratch is based on a chicken and Coconuts is based on a monkey. These animals are commonly considered funny, not threatening. I mean, monkeys can be horrifying when unleashed, but if you're familliar with the story of the chimpanzee called "Travis", you'll know that the injuries that these guys inflict would be way too graphic for a Sonic show. And Grounder requires a lot of cartoon logic to even properly function. If the ground is uneven or muddy or things are in the way, that sucks for poor Grounder as he can't get past these minor hinderances with the chain wheel thing under his body. This would have to be taken into account when reimagining him in a more serious show. Maybe give him rocket feet or make him able to stretch his arms and use them instead to move when something is in the way.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-05 20:29:27 +0000 UTC]

Basically think something like Samurai Jack or Avatar the Last Air Bender where the heroes are always on the move in a world where the main villain rules the world, like Adventures of Sonic in that it's Sonic and Tails running around the world and it's like Satam in that the world is ruled by Robotnik (as well as includes elements and characters from those shows like Swatbots, the Roboticizer, Knothole, Robotropolis, the Freedom Fighters, Snively and the robots from AoStH). 

Well like I said I still intend on keeping their comedic elements I'm just going to have them be able to put up much more of fight against Sonic and his friends. As for the species they are modeled after, with Scratch I plan to change him from being modeled after a chicken to being modeled after a mythological monster that slightly resembles a chicken called a cockatrice (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatri… ), with Coconuts I was thinking that I'd make him a bit of a Green Goblin type like he's a bit deranged and destructive (like an actual monkey) and he would ride around on a hover board Green Goblin style, though you do raise some good points on Grounder's mobility I'll have to take that into account when I make his redesign, I am thinking that his drill hands could be made of these special nanites that can morph into different objects to emulate his ability to change his arms into different stuff in the original cartoon, he would also be pretty tank like and be the most durable of the robots, and some one like Knuckles would probably have an easier time leaving a dent in him. I also got this idea where Scratch and Grounder start out as Orbot and Cubot until their bodies get destroyed and Robotnik decides to reuse their AI chips for the battle bots he made thus becoming Scratch and Grounder. I did make these redesigns for the characters some time ago but I say they're dated now and I intend to make new better redesigns (Sonic Odyssey Orbot and Scratch , Sonic Odyssey Cubot and Grounder , Sonic Odyssey Coconuts ). The reason I pick the AoStH robots to have such reimaginings is because I feel they're best choice out of all Robotnik's robot minions to get reimaginings since they have the most varied designs from eachother and they were actually built to fight Sonic and can be reimagined in ways so they can fight Sonic, I mean what exactly could Orbot and Cubot or Decoe and Bocoe do against someone like Sonic or Knuckles, I guess there's Sleet and Dingo but those guys aren't robots built by Robotnik they're just a couple of guys he hired.

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-11-11 19:31:32 +0000 UTC]

Cockatrice sounds good. That's one way to make a chicken more threatening. To be honest, I don't like the idea of Scratch and Grounder being Orbot and Cubot too much as they are just really different characters. As I said before, it somewhat makes sense in the videogame, but in a TV show where Eggman rules the world, Eggman would probably have enough troops so he can spare two robots to do the annoying housework he deems himself to great for, they just shouldn't be flat-out disloyal like they were in Lost World. I'd say keep both pairs around and make them rivals, that could actually be pretty funny. With Orbot and Cubot as the more clean butler-like robots who are Eggman's advisors and Scratch and Grounder being the dirty fighters who face Sonic all the time, there would be some nice internal tension. Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts were always pretty obsessed with being Robotnik's favorite in AoStH while Orbot and Cubot would probably deem themselves very important as they are around Eggman all the time. Scratch and Grounder would argue that they're Eggman's top elites who would give their robotic lives for Eggman and risk being destroyed by Sonic every day while Orbot and Cubot just sit in the lair where it's safe and Orbot and Cubot would argue that Scratch and Grounder are unintelligent brutes who never get anything done right while they are the closest to Eggman, do all his personal work and give him more or less useful advice to help his plans succeed and maybe even claim Eggman's success of taking over the world as an event that was caused by their "very smart and useful advice". And Coconuts would probably try to use this situation for his own interests and screw over both duos. In a show that's not set in one place, you need to have plenty of stuff going on wherever the characters go, so an ongoing conflict like this is pretty much a must. Even Samurai Jack which really didn't have many reoccurring characters had the Scotsman who appeared in multiple episodes and was Jack's rival of sorts.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-11 22:05:15 +0000 UTC]

well glad you like the idea of Scratch being a Cockatrice. Though I guess we may have to agree to disagree on the matter of Scratch and Grounder/Orbot and Cubot, since with the 2012 Bebop and Rocksteady they didn't copy their exact personalities for the show, although some of your ideas regarding a potential dynamic do sound interesting, I'll run that by my editor. I do intend to story arcs going on while on their adventures, like Sonic trying to find his Uncle Chuck, the mystery regarding where Tails came from, the various encounters with Knuckles who'll be a treasure hunter along with being the Master Emerald guardian (he has help so he can go looking for ancient relics connected to his heritage) would have a rivalry with Sonic (not unlike Jack and the Scotsman), encounters with the Knothole Freedom Fighters where Sally would but heads with Sonic.

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-11-12 17:27:05 +0000 UTC]

There is a difference between slightly altering the lore and personality of a character to fit a new adaptation and turning two characters who had nothing to do with each other into the same person which is a really big deal. Slightly changing a character for an adaptation is a good thing and usually very necessary, what might work well in one adaptation might be really out of place in the next, but what you're trying to do with the robot sidekicks is kind of like if Tails and Knuckles were somehow mutated into becoming Ray and Mighty in one adaptation because they had a similar role in SegaSonic. Okay, it's not quite as weird because Orbot and Cubot are robots, but I think you get the point. There are people who really like Orbot and Cubot and would be pretty pissed if they were just turned into Scratch and Grounder. (Insert Vietnam flashback of that one Orbot and Cubot fangirl from SNN who interpreted so much into their relationship that it was creepy and wanted them to star in a TV show for preschoolers here.) But it is up to you what you want to do in your adaptation, I just thought it was a strange choice. Then again, I do judge ideas like this on a level of realism, as in "Would this actually work as a real canon thing?" instead of "Does this work on a basic awe level?" like I would with a fanfiction. For example, I would probably be fine with Sonic Rush's story if it was a fanfiction somebody on DeviantArt on Fanfiction.net uploaded. I'd probably give the author some advice on how they should double-check their characterizations of Knuckles and Amy and how they could have improved the story, but I would be nowhere near as harsh with it as I actually am when talking about it. So it's up to you how you take my advice. If you don't have a problem with your concepts being a little fanfic-y and off the rails, don't be too concerned about me pointing out these things. It's just that I'm trying to become a professional writer and therefore have trained myself to be sensitive towards fanfic-y aspects and work around them. I wouldn't want my future work to end up like, let's say the Twilight series which was panned because of how juvenile and wish fulfillment-like it was.

I think you have some really interesting ideas and it would be a shame if you didn't do anything with them. Maybe try to come up with some episode plots and scripts in order to get a better grasp on the series' structure and characterizations. Mark important events like "The first episode", "The introduction to this show's version of character XY", "The season 1 finale", etc. and come up with stuff that needs to happen in the episodes in between. For example, when you introduce Knuckles and the Master Emerald, the concept of the Chaos Emeralds should have already been introduced in a previous episode so the Master Emerald won't come out of nowhere. You wouldn't be the only one doing this, the Youtube reviewer Mr Enter for example uploads scripts of his "soon-to-be show" Growing Around on DeviantArt. It would be fun to see something like that for Sonic that's not 100% fanfic.

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Dlawing90 In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-16 05:49:48 +0000 UTC]

what do you think of the original game concept for sonic boom called sonic synergy?

here is an old trailer for it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w6MzN…

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Rainbowser In reply to Dlawing90 [2017-11-16 13:49:40 +0000 UTC]

I think it looked way more promising than what we got though the game itself never actually looked as good as these trailers. The footage was made in a different engine that was never even intended for the actual game or something. I believe this one is a rather late trailer though as it already tries to advertise Sticks as a main character even though she isn't one in the game. The footage of the game was probably made long before they cobbled Sticks into this hence why there is no actual in-game footage of her.
But I think getting the people behind the TV show to work on this last minute was a huge mistake. Knuckles for example wasn't even meant to be retarded in the original Sonic Synergy concept(even though his redesign was pretty similar), that was all the TV show writers' doing. There was going to be a lot more lore about the Ancients and Lyric at some point was going to be an owl or even a spider which would have been a million times more interesting than yet another evil snake. If the lore, story and characters were better and actually explained anything about this so-called "alternate universe", I would maybe forgive the glitches and other issues with the final game like I do with Chronicles, but not like this.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-20 01:58:03 +0000 UTC]

I might make a villain for Sonic Odyssey based on the original concepts for Lyric. Also I feel that they played their cards right they could have made the Synergy subseries for the Adventure fans by using something close to the Adventure gameplay and having the more serious storylines, while having the boost games for those you like that gameplay style and the simpler and more comedic stories, and Mania for those who like the genesis style. It could have been a decent compromise I mean Mega Man has been pulling stuff like that for years.

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-11-25 21:39:33 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, I'd prefer a franchise split as well. There's no way Sonic is ever going to satisfy all of his fan groups with one game, so you might as well split up the franchise into different, co-existing series that go their seperate ways. Mario also did this for quite some time, but then the standard 2D Mario style started to assimilate the subseries which is why we got stuff like Sticker Star, Paper Jam Bros and 3D Land. But it would be worth a try at the very least.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-25 21:57:06 +0000 UTC]

My point exactly, I mean I think they would have to go to different developers and there is the question if they will be in the same continuity but it would be a good step. Yeah I hated when 2D Mario started infecting everything else I mean at least Mario Odyssey seems to be different. Also funny how you brought up Paper Jam since I feel they way they decided that Paper Mario is from a separate universe than regular Mario is kind of like how they decided that Classic Sonic is from a separate universe and in my opinion both are dumb ideas since I think those should basically just be the regular characters just in a different art style. (I miss the days when the paper stuff in Paper Mario was just an artstyle and the paper based abilities were considered unnatural in universe). Honestly if you wanted to make a crossover between Mario and Luigi and Paper Mario you should've made it a Mario and Luigi game with Paper Mario aesthetics and blend elements of those two series, basically take Paper Mario and replace the partners with Luigi.

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-12-01 15:54:19 +0000 UTC]

That's exactly what I thought about this whole thing. Paper Mario is Classic Sonic but in red. In fact, my personal theory is that ONLY the the post-Sticker Star Paper Mario games are AU while the first three Paper Mario games still are part of the same continuity as the main games. I mean, there's no doubt that Mario Story, TTYD and Super Paper Mario take place in the same universe as they all have characters such as Merlon's family or Mario's partners in them. They're also connected to Super Mario RPG through the lore about the Star Spirits who also made appearances in Mario Party 5 meaning that they're at least connected to the "real" Mario universe in a way. The confirmed AU Sticker Star, Color Splash and Paper Jam also take place in the same universe, but not once are the events of the other Paper Mario games even remotely referenced. One of the Paper Toads even claims that two Bowsers are the biggest threat Mario(and by Mario, they mean THEIR Mario) has come across so far which makes no sense considering both the Shadow Queen and the Chaos Heart affected the entire world with their dark power, so these events were impossible to miss. Then there's also the fact that the books that tell the stories of the first three Paper Mario games are all different books while Sticker Star, Color Splash and Paper Jam all share the same book. Plus the obvious difference with handling the paper concept with one being very subtle and the other one beating you over the head with it. I think that the first three Paper Mario games are actually storybook retellings of adventures the real Mario had which is why their art style looks different from the main Mario games, but not like the post-Sticker Star games either. And I might be going into theory territory here, but it also makes a lot of sense if you consider the abilities from TTYD and SPM: The "paper-y" abilities from TTYD are described as "curses", but in reality, there's nothing really disturbing about them in the game itself, is there? I know that the ghosts who "curse" you are actually the heroes who defeated the Shadow Queen before and try to help Mario, but why would they call them "curses" if they could just call them "new awesome abilities to help you out"? Well, just imagine a real human being twisting into the forms the curses give you. Disturbing, isn't it? Calling them "curses" was actually a pretty smart move on their part because acting like it's a bad thing would make Mario more likely to see the benefits in it while calling it a "power" would bring more attention to their creepy nature. The 3D ability from SPM was probably some kind of multidimensional power beyond anyone's imagination in the real adventure(explaining why most other characters can't do it and why getting stuck in the 3D space makes you disappear to the people in 2D space), so they turned it into 3D in the storybook to make it comprehensible to the reader. So I don't think a Mario&Luigi crossover with pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario is actually possible because it's the same universe to me.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-12-01 16:45:45 +0000 UTC]

yeah I share that theory regarding Paper Mario from before Sticker Star being separate universes from each other, Also the whole two Bowser's thing being the biggest threat doesn't make sense when you take the Mario and Luigi into account with villains like Cackletta, the Shroobs and Fawful (and the Dark Star). I also have a theory that the Classic Sonic form Forces and Mania are from an alternate timeline created after the events of Sonic Generations when the Eggmans escape the white space the Classic Eggman having learned that his future plans don't work decide to scrap them and instead use the Phantom Ruby, though I'd prefer if that the whole classic and modern designs were just art styles and one could imagine the genesis games with the modern designs or the Adventure games with the classic designs. I also like to think that the Paper Mario games (pre sticker star) were a story book retelling of the actual adventures, I would actually be interested in seeing what the original Paper Mario games would be like in a different art style like maybe with the Mario and Luigi art style or even in 3D like the main games just something interesting to think about, also I find it an amusing thought that when someone is reading the story to people and how they deal with the parts where Mario was grinding. I don't think an actual crossover between Mario and Luigi and pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario due to actually being the same universe, I'm just proposing a Paper Mario game where you play as just Mario and Luigi.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-12 18:38:13 +0000 UTC]

you make some good points and I'll put that into consideration, I am making Sonic Odyssey as practice for when I do get to make my own comics (as in stuff with my own original characters) so I guess I should try and consider making it feel less "fanfic-y" I mean I have been working on streamlining my ideas for the series lately, though I have been complimented for the idea being "original" but I can see how it might be a major departure for some, I mean I did scrap this one idea of having Hope from the comics be like Robotnik's adopted daughter and be more villainous but I felt that was too much of a departure from her character so instead just decided to make my own OC for that role (I'm not using Eggette due to my discomfort with using other people's OCs) so I can see how the idea for the robots could be considered something like that (also that thing with the girl who was obsessed with Orbot and Cubot sounds odd, didn't think those two would have any fangirls but it's the internet so probably should have guessed), so again I'll run this by my editor so what he thinks. Also do you think you could elaborate on "Would this actually work as a real canon thing?" do you mean in terms of how well written it is or what can or cannot be legally used? also funny that you brought up something coming off as being like Twilight, because one aspect I think is worth mentioning is that I plan to not focus on romance in the comic at all because 1) I'm not confident in my ability to write romance and 2) because I lack interest in it and am usually annoyed with it in stuff like "CW's Flash" which I feel dwells on it too much. I had this idea to have a Betty and Veronica like love triangle with Sonic, Amy and Sally as a reference to the rivalry between Sonally and Sonamy shippers but I scrapped that when I remembered that love triangle are usually terrible and the reasons I listed earlier, also because I feel it might be best to not get involved in shipping.

so are you suggesting posting my scripts before making them into comics to get people's thoughts in general? when you say "It would be fun to see something like that for Sonic that's not 100% fanfic." did you mean to actually make this an actual show? I mean that would be cool but I highly doubt that Sega would let me make a show like this. Also funny that you brought up Mr. Enter's Growing Around concepts since I watched the review where he got the idea to do that with one of the shorts from "Shorty Mc Short Shorts" he saw wasted potential in two shorts "Flip-Flopped" and "Too Many Robots!", and he the Flip-Flopped concept really resonated with him to the point he's making Growing Around and I guess it is a fine concept and all but what really resonated with me was the concept for Too Many Robots since I grew up loving shows like Dexter's lab and Jimmy Neutron and thought it'd be an interesting twist on that type of show, so I actually do plan on one day doing a comic with a similar concept I even already got a few ideas for characters. If you want to hear more of my ideas for Sonic Odyssey I can send them in notes since I don't want to flood your comment section, I would like to hear your thoughts and maybe help it seem a little less "fanfic-y". 

EDIT: I put some thought into it and here are somethings in defense of the Orbot and Cubot=Scratch and Grounder idea, Orbot and Cubot's personalities would still be intact when they get turned into Scratch and Grounder. While I admit that Orbot is way smarter than Scratch was in the cartoon I usually interpreted Scratch as being a little bit smarter than (not by much) Grounder (except for the time Grounder became a genius or course), and making Scratch a bit smarter and with Orbot's peronality could help distinguish him from Grounder a bit more. Also since this is relevant to the post the 2012 Ninja Turtles have made some fairly significant changes to the Turtles' lore such as: also the 2012 Ninja Turtles have also made some very drastic changes such as Razar being the the second mutation of a human Chuck Norris wannabe instead of a baby wolf, Tokka being a giant alien kaiju instead of a mutant snapping turtle, Irma being a Kraang leader disguised as a human, Hun becoming a Bruce Lee parody, Mona Lisa being an alien warrior instead of a human scientist mutated into a lizard, not to mention the fact they made April and Casey teenagers in that series, and that's probably not all the major changes they made. also I would like to point out that merging characters together is pretty common in adaptations tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php… .

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-11-19 21:22:23 +0000 UTC]

The "Would this actually work as a real canon thing?" thing takes different aspects into consideration. For example, some of the current SEGA mandates. No new family members or romance for already existing characters, no use of characters or ideas from the comics that could be copyright claimed by someone else(*coughcough* Penders), etc. but mainly because those could result into major problems with the flow and focus of the story or unnecessary lawsuits that would most definitely happen. I wouldn't call a perfectly crafted concept that disregards the SEGA mandate of Sonic not being allowed to cry fanfic-y just because it disregards a mandate that's pretty weird in the first place. Mind that this is the mind of the audience, the critic though. So the question you as the writer should be asking yourself is "How and why is my version different from the others and does it make sense to be this way?"
It's about how well things work if you put them together and how the changes correspond to the content we already have. For example, if Chaos is a peaceful guardian in your story but the echidnas are still extinct, then you would have to come up with a new reason on why they are all gone since Chaos never killed them. You should keep the basic connections between the events intact and take liberties with the details. In pretty much every incarnation of TMNT, the Turtles were dropped into the Ooze as babies, but in one version they're reincarnations of a Japanese family, in another version they're mutated in a lab as part of an experiment, in another one, a young boy accidentally dropped them into the Ooze-contaminated sewers and in yet another one Hamato Yoshi himself bought them as pets and then they ended up in the Ooze when he was surprised by the Kraang. Giving a new spin on the same event is always a good way to explain why things didn't go in your version like they did in other incarnations.
Same goes for the characters. You can take liberties with the more ambiguous stuff like the backstories and elaborate on it, but don't change it completely unless you're 100% sure that you really, really, REALLY know what you're doing. Which you or anyone else for that matter most likely won't be, so better try to avoid it. You should adjust the personalities a little by using elements from previous incarnations so they'll fit with the show, but don't change them just for the sake of making them fit in or else it will come off as contrived like Shadow and Knuckles in Boom.
Also, only use characters that you're really sure you'll need. Don't add them just to have them there(a very fanfic-y thing to do, I'm guilty of it myself), if your show is supposed to be story-driven they need a role. It doesn't have to be a major role, if you add Fang to be a reoccurring minor antagonist who is trying to steal the Chaos Emeralds, that's enough, he just needs to be "the guy who does this and that". Different characters for example can be used for different types of episodes. Silver for example could be used for time travel history-themed episodes while Knuckles could be used for world building episodes.
One thing I probably don't have to tell you is to keep important OCs to a minimum and mainly use the characters that already exist. With Sonic in particular, I think that new villainous characters are welcome additions, but more heroic major characters are not necessary. Dr. Eggman is pretty much the only reoccurring antagonist the games have. This is not enough for a TV show, even Underground and Boom understood that. But there are more than enough major heroes in the Sonic universe, maybe even a few too many to properly use them all. Adding a few more good guys is fine, but in the long run they shouldn't be as important as Sonic, Tails or Knuckles.
Another important thing that sets a new incarnation apart from a fanfiction is being its own independant thing from the already existing content, meaning that you need to re-introduce all the characters and you have to explain how everything works even if the original version already explained it a million times because you need to take into consideration that your version might be the first one that newcomers will come across which is never the case with fanfictions as they are solely written by fans for fans.
Those are the most important aspects that I'd count here. Yeah, I know, even some official Sonic stuff hasn't been following the advice I'm giving you here, but the way I see it, this is the best conceptual way to do it.

Not an official thing. You can make it into a webseries and SEGA can't and won't do anything against it as long as you don't use it to make money. Animated, it could be something like the "A day with Bowser Jr." series by dannywaving which is a webseries that focuses on the family life of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings or in comic form, it could be something like Ghosts of the Future which is a Sonic AU fancomic about Silver's life. Or in script form, it could be something like Growing Around or MeltingMan's alternate ending to Sonic Lost World. I just think it would be a good idea to pursue.

Again, you can do whatever you want with the concept, I'm not stopping you. I've seen weirder stuff. In Ghosts of the Future for example, Nicole is evil for no reason. Turning two or more unrelated characters into the same one is a very "comic book" thing to do and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work out for Scratch and Grounder, but go ahead, give it a shot. Maybe you really do see something there that I don't.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-11-19 22:11:53 +0000 UTC]

alright I'll keep your advise in mind. I do intend on making this a web comic on this site and I do intend on reintroducing the characters, since some of them have some significant reimaginings to them such as Amy being more of a magician here, though one concept I am a bit iffy on and would like a second opinion on is my idea for the backstory for Robotnik and Shadow- basically my comic will take place on Mobius and I'll be using the backstory of it being a post apocalyptic Earth (though instead of being destroyed by aliens it was the Gaia Awakening), and I'll be using the planned origin for Robotnik that was going to be used in season 3 of Sonic Satam where he and Snively were scientists working on a Space Colony and were flung into the future somehow. My thought is I'd combine this with the Space Colony Arc by having the Colony be the survivors of the Gaia disaster with Robotnik working alongside his grandfather Gerald in the Ark's science department. In this universe would be the first Mobian to exist (and the mural on Angel Island is actually depicting Shadow's creation), he would start out as an ordinary hedgehog who acted as Maria's pet, one day Shadow got into an accident and Maria begs Gerald to save him so he injects him with a mysterious alien substance (given to him by a mysterious alien who made a deal with him to use his DNA to repopulate the planer) that causes Shadow to mutate into a mobian. So Gerald creates more "Mobians" and sends them down to populate the planet. the Ark residence all get put in stasis and every 100 years they wake up and send more colonists down to the planet below as Gerald, Maria, and Shadow come to study the planet. Eventually the military on the Ark finds out about Gerald's experiments and kills him and Maria while Shadow gets contained and put in stasis forever. Eventually Robotnik was awaken from his stasis on Mobius (since they decided to abandon the Ark) and finds out about what happened and vowed revenge and then begins his quest for world domination.

Also is it okay if I run more of my ideas for Sonic Odyssey by you? 

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-12-01 18:25:47 +0000 UTC]

Okay, I can definitely see your problem here. Trying an alternate take on Shadow's backstory is probably one of the hardest and most ball-sy things a Sonic adaptation could ever dream to do because Shadow is defined by his backstory, it's what made him popular. I don't even think you can really do a lot with it because it's just so iconic that any change being made to it would feel off. So yeah, this is just what's the case here. But even if you can't adapt it in a way that would feel 100% natural, you should at least consider the following things in order to avoid plotholes and fundamental changes that would probably be too drastic.

1. Shadow was created as a bioweapon. This is essential to his character and shouldn't be altered or removed. It's why Black Doom made his deal with Gerald in the first place, he wanted Shadow as an unstoppable weapon to gather the Chaos Emeralds for him so he could let his race archieve ultimate power and feed on the planet. Aside from it being very important in his canon backstory which shaped his entire character, it explains why he is able to wield Chaos power the way he does which is one of his most crucial abilities that sets him apart from any other Mobian. With this backstory, there's no explanation on how he in particular is connected to the Chaos Emeralds. It also doesn't explain why Shadow doesn't age, another safe sign of him not being an actual Mobian or even a regular lifeform for that matter as all life eventually withers and dies. It's all because of his calculated creation out of an alien DNA code which in turn begs the question:

2. Wouldn't all Mobians be unaging Chaos Spear-wielding Black Arms off springs in this universe? There would be nothing special about Shadow since if this is how Mobians were created, in fact, he would be nothing but a rushed prototype who would logically be weaker than the ones that were created after him as they would be more refined in their creation. Where did Gerald get all the resources and animals to mutate all those different species of Mobians out of without anyone else on the ARK noticing? If you only take the game canon into consideration, that would be about a dozen of different species, some of them being wild and dangerous animals like crocodiles or animals that would be way too small to inject with the "mutagen" like bees. Wouldn't the animals all be dead too if Dark freaking Gaia happened to the planet? And what about the Mobians from another dimension like Blaze and Marine or the ones who came from outer space like the ancestors of the Babylon Rogues? And are humans still living on Earth, were they transferred back to the planet too eventually? Are they all aware of how Mobians were created? Wouldn't this whole history of humans murdering what is essentially the god of all Mobians cause a lot of tension for all Mobians and not just Shadow?

Yeah, I think this whole attempt to explain the origins of Mobians actually raises more questions than it answers. Maybe you could answer a few of them if you went further into detail, but the problem is that these questions shouldn't really matter. Because the thing is: You don't have to explain why Mobians exist. Now while you should re-introduce the stuff you use from previous adaptations so newcomers won't get lost, it's not like you're trying to sell an entirely new concept to the world. Anyone who has ever gotten as much as a slight glimpse on Sonic knows that anthros just exist in this world, it's the regular dosis of suspension of disbelief you just roll with in fictional universes, just like how you don't question why there are element bending animals in Pokémon or the existence of the Koopas in Mario or why there are talking rainbow-colored talking ponies in My Little Pony when the real life versions of these animals look and act entirely different. In fact, trying to explain all this stuff would get newcomers(and many old fans too) even more confused, maybe even bored by its long-windedness. In fact, that's one of the main reasons why a lot of people don't like the Archie comics although with them running as long as they did, them trying to make up an explanation for stuff like the existance of Mobians was bound to happen at some point. There are some things that don't need an explanation. If you try to explain every single thing, you'll only end up limiting yourself and making lots and lots of room for plotholes and overcomplications that wouldn't be there if you just let the suspension of disbelief do its thing.

I know that getting a hang on how to use the suspension of disbelief correctly is hard when starting out with writing, but it shouldn't be as big of a problem when you're doing an adaptation because the concepts that fall under it are already there. Some of the things you don't need to explain in Sonic that I can name from the top of my head include:

1. The existence of Mobians. (See above.)

2. The existence of humans in the same world. (Just make the society believable enough aka have both human and Mobian background characters, show them working together in different jobs where Mobians use their special abilities to help out, etc.)

3. The origin of the Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald. (Even Archie comics knew that saying "They're from space." is enough.)

4. Most abilities Mobians can have. (A few are explained in the main universe such as Shadow's Chaos Control, Knuckles' strength or Blaze's pyrokinesis, but the explanations are very simple like "The alien dude Shadow was made from can use Chaos Control." or "The Master Emerald/Sol Emeralds gave them this power." You don't have to explain too much here unless the character is meant to be really powerful like Infinite for example. Characters with powers such as super speed, helicopter tails and glidey dreadlocks however just exist in this world.)

5. The similarities between Sonic and Shadow. (Originally, Shadow was meant to be a dark clone of Sonic, but they scrapped this concept and what remained is a character who just happens to look a lot like Sonic and shares some of his abilities. It did raise a few eyebrows initially, but later on pretty much all hedgehogs turned out to be speedy characters in one way or another and looked similar to Sonic, so people just kind of accepted that the similarities are a more or less realistic coincidence.)

6. The existence of Chao. (They exist. They're cute. You want to pet them.)

3. This is a thing you should take into consideration because I think you take the opposite for granted: Eggman never actually knew Gerald or Maria in person. Which actually makes a lot of sense consindering how much he idolizes his grandfather: He doesn't know him as a person, he knows him as a legend. People you know in real life have flaws and weaknesses, legends don't. Also, wouldn't Eggman know exactly who and what Shadow is if he was created right under his nose? Wouldn't he compare Sonic to Shadow instead of vice versa? Wouldn't Shadow be attached to him in a way considering he's the only other "family member" who is still alive? This would be a big change in the dynamic of both Eggman and Shadow that I don't think would be easy to make believable.

4. And finally, I just don't think that making Eggman a tragic, revenge-seeking villain is a good idea. I could see the whole "the government murdered my gramps, now they'll pay" thing somewhat factor into his actions as he does idolize Gerald and even was inspired to become a scientist because of him, but I just can't see it as the main motivation behind his character. The thing with Eggman is that he has a huge ego and thinks that he, the great and highly intelligent Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik, has a better use for the world than anyone else possibly could have. What that "better use" is depends on the incarnation. In SatAM, it's using the whole planet as a factory. In the Adventure games, it's turning at least part of the world into his own personal amusement park. In Sonic Forces, it's to... wreak havoc on bystanders and never actually do anything with his newly acquired power... Anyways, I think you get the point. Eggman is a narcissistic megalomaniac and his ideas are completely beyond those of a normal person. Having a character like him be motivated by something as relatable as wanting revenge for the murder of his family is a contrast I can't really see working in a non-silly way. That's exactly what shows like Phineas&Ferb make fun of when they give the show's villain a "tragic childhood story" for pretty much every crazy off-the-wall plan he has. Eggman is Eggman and in theory, that's all he has to be. I think that putting his admiration for Gerald into the concept is a good way to enhance his character, but that's pretty much all I can see it be used for.

This is kind of what I mean when talking about "fanfic-y ideas". They seem awesome and clever at first glance, but tend to become covoluted and unstable later on. I think there's a lot of stuff here you should probably just cut in order to make it more overseeable. It would be better for yourself as well considering that you can only do so much as a single webcomic writer. Unfortunately, I can't really help you out with alternate ideas here either because rewriting Shadow's story IS incredibly ambitious and the ideas here are pretty all over the place, so I can only really point at the things that are very likely to go wrong. 

Also, Amy being a magician, are you referencing her tarot cards here? Because I have no idea how else Amy is supposed to relate to magic stuff. I can take a look at your concepts, just don't expect me to respond immediately. The weeks before Christmas are full of hard work for me.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-12-01 20:15:29 +0000 UTC]

well I was asking more about the idea of Eggman being flung into the future and ending up on Mobius thing, but you raise some good points about the whole Shadow thing I'll put those into consideration. Now that you bring some of that stuff up I'm starting to reconsider the whole Post Apocalyptic Earth concept, one idea I have is that the planet is called Earth and Mobius is the name of an archipelago that Mobians originate from (probably the islands from the Genesis games), I also intend to have Robotnik take over the world but I'm also thinking that I'd start before his takeover and maybe have him as a Lex Luthor like figure before he takes over (since he was assisting King Acorn before his takeover). I plan make Amy more of a magician based on that Tarot card thing because well I feel that aspect of her character was wasted and has a lot of potential of her having use of magic, also she turned invisible in 06 and there's the fact she pulls a hammer out of nowhere (I know some might bring up that's just cartoon logic but what sounds more interesting her having magic or cartoon logic). I'm not sure about having average mobian citizens have special powers, I mean in that case what would make the main characters so special if the background characters also have powers, and wasn't Tails considered a freak and that's why he was bullied because of his two tails? so that kind of thing should be unusual I mean even though most of the main characters in Marvel or DC have super powers not every human civilian has super powers and as you said the main characters all have some things that could explain where their powers come from "A few are explained in the main universe such as Shadow's Chaos Control, Knuckles' strength or Blaze's pyrokinesis, but the explanations are very simple like "The alien dude Shadow was made from can use Chaos Control." or "The Master Emerald/Sol Emeralds gave them this power."" I do intend to have Sonic gain his speed as a result of some science experiment involving Chaos Energy conducted by Robotnik.

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Rainbowser In reply to JorDanGo [2017-12-28 18:41:58 +0000 UTC]

Well, if you want to introduce magic, you will have to think very hard on how you want it to work because it can be a real gamebreaker if used improperly. Can anyone learn to do it or is it limited to a chosen few? Are there other characters who can use magic? Does the magic require a source of power like a wand or does it come from within? How do civilians react to this kind of magic? Do you need a license for it? Do you have to visit a special school to learn how to use it properly? What exactly can you do using the magic? Can you bend the fabric of reality with it or is it limited to some magic tricks? Is it related to the other supernatural stuff in the series?
 
I'd say make the rings Amy is wearing on her wrists the thing that makes her able to pull off magic tricks like summoning her hammer and small spells like the invisibility thing. Maybe give her a book of spells too that includes magic instructions and maybe also recipes for magic potions, but also for stuff like "magically delicious cupcakes" which would give it a kind of "Amy feel" to it. It would be kind of funny to have her unknowingly snatch the rings and the book from right under a wizard villain's(maybe Ixis Naugus, maybe one of the dark wizards who appeared during the Knuckles Quest arc, maybe someone new) nose and get chosen by the artifacts to be the successor of the witch who previously owned them and maybe even happened to be a lot like Amy personality-wise. It would give her a character arc of an entirely different direction from any other incarnation which would definitely be interesting to see. I like this idea, it's most likely never going to happen in the canon stories, but it's not too far off to feel, well, off.

I think that mobian side/background characters should only have "superpowers" that fit their animal species such as Vector being stronger than average(crocodiles have the strongest jaws in the animal kingdom), Espio being able to turn invisible(he's a chameleon, it's what they do) or Charmy being able to fly(with his naturally given wings). So big strong animals should be stronger than average, winged insects should be able to fly, poisonous/venomous animals should be able to use their toxic substances to attack, aquatic animals should be able to swim better than any other kind and also be able to breathe underwater, etc. Make these kinds of superhuman powers an everyday occurrance, but don't have them reach the level of the main characters aka there shouldn't be a cheetah character who just shows up and is faster than Sonic because cheetahs are fast or a gorilla who can just beat up Knuckles because gorillas are strong. Superpowers that rival those of the main characters need to be explained properly, but you don't have to go into detail about which kind of radiation caused which cell in Tails' fetus to split and result in the two tails. Shadow's enhanced speed and strength and lack of aging also don't need much of an explanation other than that Gerald designed him to have this kind of stuff as part of his ultimate lifeform powers. There should be an explanation of some kind with the really powerful characters, just don't go overly into detail with it because that can very easily catch you in the worldbuilding trap and trust me, you don't want to get stuck in the worldbuilding trap.

Tails having two tails isn't really a "superpower", I'd count his intelligence as his power instead which yes, no background character should be able to rival. The Classic games also said that Tails didn't know that he could use his tails to fly at first and only learned it after he met Sonic which makes the teasing a lot more plausible. But even if he already knew how to fly, flight is a rather common power considering many insects, bats and pretty much anything that can catch wind under something(Cream with her ears or Knuckles with his dreads) can do it on some level, so it wouldn't be all that impressive. The bullying was probably more about the weirdness than the power though. Kids around his age would still consider someone with two noses a freak even if he was able to smell twice as good as anyone else. Tails also is a weak, nerdy and shy orphan kid, there are many reasons to pick on him and no consequences for it unlike with Blaze where the bullies should have the royal guard on their ass.

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JorDanGo In reply to Rainbowser [2017-12-28 23:20:45 +0000 UTC]

well I was thinking that Amy's magical powers would be limited due to basically only being an apprentice and I was thinking that her hammer was an artifact of ancient troll society and Naugus and Wendy would be upset to see Amy change it to look more "girly". and I do plan to make the number of super powered mobians limited in this universe. Also on the topic of Shadow being a mutant hedgehog and Gerald being the creator of the Mobians I think we'll have to pull a Orbot and Cubot=Scratch and Grounder and use of Fleetway characters, and agree to disagree. I'm also thinking that with villains in this comic I'd go in a similar direction as the DC Animated universe and Spectacular Spider Man by showing them before they become villains.

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JorDanGo In reply to JorDanGo [2017-12-03 01:54:00 +0000 UTC]

I think I figured out a way to "streamline" the idea of Shadow being the first mobian by changing it so that instead of Gerald outright creating the entire Mobian race I'd have it so that on the day of awakening when Light Gaia was rebuilding the planet got to the point where he had to recreate life didn't want to just make humans the only sentient race on the planet noticed Shadow in his escape pod got the idea to inhabit the planet with anthropomorphic animals, as for my Shadow origin idea I don't think that whole being a bio weapon is as important as you're making it out to be I mean Gerald didn't originally intend for Shadow to be a bio weapon but rather something to cure Maria's sickness and his Chaos Powers could be a result of his mutation or a connection to the Chaos Force, and if you cut out all the stuff of Gerald creating all the mobians what issues is there with Shadow being a mutated hedgehog I mean it would explain why he's a hedgehog (I mean if you're creating an Ultimate Life form why make them a hedgehog) even if being a bio weapon is important I could just make it like the IDW Ninja Turtles where they where Stockman was experimenting on animals like the Turtles to create soliders for Krang it could probably be the same with Shadow and Black Doom and to be fair they didn't go into the specifics of Shadow's creation just that he was made to be the ultimate lifeform and was made using chaos energy and Black Doom's DNA. 

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Rainbowser In reply to Dinar87 [2016-10-08 16:20:19 +0000 UTC]

Made one today about the whole design thing.

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Dinar87 In reply to Rainbowser [2016-10-08 16:28:00 +0000 UTC]

Fantastic!

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Rainbowser In reply to DiamondSwordFan [2016-05-03 20:04:45 +0000 UTC]

Those three shows have one thing in common: They are not original enough to be their own thing, but they don't get the thing they're pretending to adapt right enough to be a worthy adaptation because they just don't care enough. 

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