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Spider-Bat700 In reply to bartbouman [2018-02-05 09:17:34 +0000 UTC]

That is not always true. I highly doubt, for example, that a basic Imperial Guardsman would stomp Juggernaut, or that a generic Ultramarine would stomp Wonder Woman, to give but two examples.

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Pariahnecron In reply to bartbouman [2017-12-03 01:04:35 +0000 UTC]

You can tell me,what you want but Tyranids are way better armed as the flood,the come to in huge numbers, and the flood has nearly wipet out the Covernnants,so the ,,I-Would-Like-To-Be-Tau" would disapear very fast.

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-03-31 06:51:32 +0000 UTC]

Let's look at this from a pure point-by-point argument:
Weapons: Covenant, they have a mixture of plasma weapons, weapons that use actual ammunition (don't know what to label them as), and explosives. So the Tyranids eventually realize "hey, these guys are using plasma, get weapons that absorb heat or harder armor" but then there are Brutes wielding Spikers or Brute shots, nether of which would be effected at all by the gel and both being able to blow there way past even heavily armored targets within a clip.
Numbers: This one's really even for a single battle I'd say, even long term I'd be tentative about giving this lead to the Nids, I mean, the Covenant was split in half and fighting two armies (The UNSC+Covenant separatists and the flood) and still easily equaled both.
Commander(s): Again, I'd have to give this to the Covenant. The Covenant has a hierarchy, all of the lower's are able and ready to take the place should a commander die, but if a squad of Nids lost their Swarmlord or other synaptic creature their forces would be totally fucked for the time it took for another synaptic creature to be made/formed.
Psychic attacks would work... until the Covenant realized its the giant heads floating around that were causing it and then proceed to take them out. How does psychic attacks hurt the Scarab? Just, like, because of its crew? The Scarab could be well out of a Zoanthrope's range and fire, I believe the main forward facing canon has an effect range of like 650 m while the only range I can find on a Zoanthrope is for its scream and that only has a range of 20 m.

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foenfang In reply to rakaru [2014-04-25 16:47:16 +0000 UTC]

What I believe would occur>
     In the scenario of a planet side battle with little to no outside reinforcement over the long term (anything over a couple days) I would give advantage to the tyranid force. The main reason for this is the tyranid’s adaptability and attrition effectiveness, while the covenant are not nearly as adaptive technologically. I would put the initial conflict(s) as fairly even (slight advantage to covenant) with massive losses on both sides as their tactics are similar.
     After the first couple days the tyranids have adapted their main infantry to have greater resistance to the covenant’s main weapon type, meanwhile they’re consuming the biomass of both sides losses to recuperate their losses/grow additional forces, and have recognized the covenant vulnerability to psychic attack. The covenant at this point have discovered the hierarchy system of the tyranids, they have probably recently become aware of the tyranids consumption of biomass but have not yet experienced the tyranid adaption.
     The following few days are filled with tyranids having a major advantage in the infantry category while the covenant go through the logistical nightmare of rearming the majority of their (remaining) forces. At this point the covenant super weapons (scarabs) become the covenant main offensive and defensive power as the vast majority of battles without them will be in the tyranids favour. This is also the point where the war becomes a battle of attrition as scarabs will be irreplaceable when lacking reinforcement while the tyranids can reconsume their biotitans and send them back into the fray, also the tyranids have access to a wide range of tactics involving psykers that can cripple scarabs. For example multiple zoanthropes are brought underneath the scarab via borrowing mawloc tunnels and voila neutralized scarab this is one of many possible strategies.
    This scenario is on a desert or ice planet where there is no additional biomass, if the war takes place on a jungle planet or a planet with any form of additional biomass the tyranids gain massive advantage by their shear numbers.
    For the covenant to win they have to shorten the war as much as possible to prevent attrition and adaption, this requires the covenant to sacrifice huge numbers to trap as much tyrannic biomass in the line of fire as possible. This would have to be followed with glassing all of the fallen forces quickly afterwards, keeping all the covenant forces in one massive combat unit that hits every tyranid force that it encounters with overwhelming concentrated firepower. This strategy is most likely to work when the tyranid forces cannot access additional biomass. As this strategy is very unlikely for the covenant to employ I give advantage to the tyranids.

as an actual response>
weapons: brutes are not the main force typically deployed by the covenant, brutes maintaining weapon effectiveness doesn’t make up for the majority of covenant forces losing theirs. Even the combination of needler, brute, and laser does not combine to nullify the shear amount of plasma weaponry the covenant typically brings(If brutes were the main force then their weapons would be adapted to instead). The majority of tyranid weaponry is either creatures that are fired at and bore into things, spikes/quills fired at high velocity, and multiple ways to launch powerful acids. Covenant shields should be fairly effective against these, everything without shields is gonna have a bad day (Including vehicles and aircraft).
Over all this would go to tyranid

numbers: In the above scenario initial numbers would be the same but as the battle continues the tyranids numbers raise/maintain while the covenant lose forces.
In a single battle the numbers would be the same. If you’re looking at the entire military strength of the faction then tyranids have it by a long shot.
Overall this goes to Tyranid

Commanders: While yes the synapse system has its faults the more important the creature the harder it is to kill typically and they do tend to use the less important creatures as meat shields. The big commanders of the tyranids are incredibly powerful and hard to kill, yes when killed the swarm is left to lesser synapse creature that are much more simple minded the leader can be respawned with all it’s skills and knowledge returned. Yes the covenant are ready and willing to replace superiors that have fallen in combat, but they lack the experience and skill of the previous leader they must also deal with the loss of morale that was just incurred (grunts are not known for their warrior spirit). Side note their are many forces in the the tyranid forces that act independent of synapse e.g. gene stealers, lictors, shrikes and some synapse creatures move in large numbers as well >warriors
I would give covenant short term advantage while tyranids have long term advantage in this category.
Overall this goes to covenant (short term is what it counts in battle)

Psychic attacks: There is a wide range of abilities available to the tyranids and many of the tyranids can use psychic abilities. My main reason to talk about the zoanthropes was the ability called warp lance which is a mid to close range ability that can blast through pretty much anything fortress walls, tanks, titans you name it. Yes it has to get in range but one of the zoanthrope's main features is it’s warp field which protects it against anything from "small arms to heavy weapons". Their main weakness is their tendency to overload themselves when doing a lot of psychic stuff ( they pop and fall over it’s kinda funny). Anyway they don’t tend to get focused on because it takes quite a bit to kill them while THOUSANDS OF GIANT BUGS ARE TRYING TO EAT YOUR FACE. What I meant to say is zoanthropes are not particularly easy targets due to their great resilience (warp field) and they tend to be support for other bigger biomorphs or swarms of smaller ones. 
 
sorry I didn’t respond sooner and for all the response I haven’t been on these in a while and had to splurge.

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-04-25 19:56:10 +0000 UTC]

Hey, I just replied to your comment on another Death Battle, hah. Anyway.

Weapons: The Covenant shield is able to withstand bullets, which means it can old off a certain kinetic force before breaking. Organic ammunition (borrowing creatures, spike, quills) have to go slower than an actual bullet, a slowing speed of fire means less kinetic force when it connects with its target. So, if a shield could take 5 rounds from the MA5D where each bullet has a muzzle velocity of 792 m/s it would take more quills (or what have you) to break the shield if the quills are only firing with a muzzle velocity of100 m/s, this type of ammunition wouldn't be effective. Spores and acid may work better, but would the spores be able to pass through the shield? I don't think so, and even if it could, some units of the Covenant already were gas masks and the like, it wouldn't take much for the rest of the army to acquire the same gas masks (especially when they notice its the spores that are fucking with em)
On the other hand, the Covenant's diverse weapons would work effectively against the 'Nids. The Nids 'evolve' to make the plasma weapons less effective, the still have to deal with the non-plasma weapons, and as the battle progressed they would begin to realize that their plasma weapons are being less and less effective and start turning to their Brute Shots and the like, and when the Nids start evolving to make those less effective, right back to the plasma weapons.
This goes to the Covenant.

Numbers: Agreed.

Commanders: While I agree with your conclusion, I feel differently. The Nid, no matter how big, would fall relatively easy to any plasma weapon. Plasma weapons burn flesh off bone, even something like a Swarmlord, while incredibly imposing and fucking terrifying, if a single lucky plasma round hits the Swarmlords neck or face, that's it, that swarmlord it dead. All the meat in its neck just flash cooked, most of it would burn away and leave nothing but a blood, burnt spine, even the lower portion of its face would be burnt to a crisp.

While the Covenant is open to psychic attacks, as you noted, its a ranged attacked. Where as something like a scarab is a long range mobile. A scarab would destroy any Nid put before it, Zoanthropes are no different. I would like to know how you think digging under the Scarab would be possible. With their motion sensors, the Covenant would easily be able to just keep moving around and avoiding the digging Nids whilst firing behind them.

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foenfang In reply to rakaru [2014-04-26 03:11:39 +0000 UTC]

Impaler cannon from the tyranid rulebook>
“...these spines are propelled at such high velocities that they can punch through plasteel or and skewer a battle tank as easily as they can flesh or bone.”
Heavy venom cannon from the tyranid rulebook>
“…launching forth a greater crystalline payload at supersonic speeds. The projectiles collide with enough force to cave in an enemy battle tank and are accompanied by a lethal blast of electrical energy…” (think tank cannon and there are smaller more common ones that lack the electricity)

Yes the fleshborers would be considerably less effective vs shields but the majority of covenant forces ( grunts, jackals, most brutes, all of their vehicles, drones) lack shields and mostly lack competent armour.

While the tyranid’s armour is their exoskeleton which once adapted to plasma is a huge deal, ghosts, banshee’s, wraiths etc all use plasma and don’t forget plasma grenades all become less effective.

Even the average effectiveness of the covenant plasma weapons are not that spectacular it takes multiple shots to take out grunts. And how many grunts and jackals can effectively use brute shots? Can drones even fly with them? I’m being silly but you see my point right? yes they have a lot of weapon variety, but they mostly use plasma when that becomes less effective the majority of the army has to switch out for needlers, brute pistols and the like which are weapons they are less familiar with.
This is a huge logistical problem rearming a large force is difficult to do at pace, besides that the tyranids wouldn’t slowly adapt over time it’s a sudden change as the forces behind the lines are consumed and the plasma adapted forms are spawned while the front lines battle. This adapted second wave shows up and bam now the tyranids are highly resistant to the covenant main arsenal and can make huge pushes/advances with minimal losses. They can do this continuously until the covenant completely rearm, these would be massive losses.

The Swarmlord is very difficult to kill, going by lore or the board game, it would take multiple plasma cannons (similar to fuel rod launchers but bigger) using concentrated fire to bring one down via plasma. And once the adaption to plasma is mass produces the swarm lord would get it to making it even harder to kill.

I still give elites the commander advantage, but I can’t give the covenant the weapons advantage when a huge amount of their arsenal becomes so hampered.

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-04-26 04:15:26 +0000 UTC]

The weapons advantage DOES go to the Covenant. True, they may incur losses when switching their weapons, but they are still able to, plus the fact that while the Plasma is the main munition for the Covenant, it is not the only thing they have.

As soon as the Covenant notice their weapons aren't killing them in one to two hits (which it would, I'll go into that later) then they bring out the Brutes who, with their Brute Shots, Spikers, and Gravity Hammers could old off the Nids whilst the Elites rearm themselves with more formidable weapons. Grunts wouldn't need to use Brute Shots, Spikers are a 'cousin' of the needler but offer so much kinetic power they can blow through heavily armored opponents in a clip, plus the Needler which in itself provides both a kinetic punch as well as an explosion. Drones use Needlers quite often, and Jackals often use the Particle Beam rifles which doesn't fire kinetic bullets or plasma but ionized particles, and so another weapon the Nids would have to evolve around. I see what you're saying, but its a moot point, I mean I could do the same thing, how man Zoanthropes even use their arms? Do Genestealers even know how to fire a Impaler cannon?

Less effective isn't useless, first off. Secondly, the Wraith, Ghost, and Banshee, while their primary weapon is plasma, the Banshee has the Fuel Rod Cannon, while it wouldn't insta-kill the Nids, the explosion would send most flying. The Wraith, too, has the superheated Fuel Rod Cannon which present a great knock back as while, and the Wraith (likewise with the Ghost) has the boost which can easily squash the lesser Nids.

We can't go off gameplay, even you use the lore of Warhammer, it's only fit we do so with Halo. And this is why the Covenant weapons take the win:
Let's say Nid's outer covering is as tough as rock, rock melts at (an average of) 1650F, now lets say 1 round from the Plasma Rifle is 705F (assuming it heats up like superheated water). If a single plasma rifle was firing at a single, stationary Nid, it would only take 30 shots (of the 540 rounds/min) for the rounds to melt the exoskeleton and cook the Nid's insides. And this is for the higher up Nids, ones like the Genestealer (whose exoskeleton is reported to be like mesh armor) would take much less rounds to kill. This isn't even taking into account weapons like the Plasma Pistol (which get hotter when fully charged) or the Plasma Grenade which instantly turns bone, flesh and metal to charred, unrecognizable bits. These weapons would mow through Nids and, if for some reason this weapons didn't, the Banshee and Wraith have weapons that deal heat damage, a blast radius, and are likely to kill anything it hits dead on. Plus the Hunters which can fire their Fuel Rod Cannon in a continues stream.

It's not as if all the Covenant would drop their weapons and run for the armory, they would make sure that someone is watching out for the Nids and exterminating any that get to close (I used Brutes in my earlier example).

The Swarmlord is killed by a Hunter. The hunter's shield is indestructible (even rockets do very little to nothing against it), plus their Fuel Rod Cannon will burn the Swarmlord as well as explode with such force that most things would melt from being in the epicenter of it.

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Lilith-Crowe In reply to rakaru [2019-04-03 09:31:32 +0000 UTC]

This is a reminder that the Lasgun has 20MJ of thermal energy and Nids can resist it so effectively that it's nicknamed the flashlight. And then you have something live a Hive Tyrant which even a Lascannon [an anti-tank weapon] would have a hard time with.

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foenfang In reply to rakaru [2014-04-28 06:37:07 +0000 UTC]

According to this halo.wikia.com/wiki/Type-47_Ul… the combat forms of the scarab are considerably less than indestructible, even worse for them they like hunters living colonies sharing a neural net. Yes there is the “super scarab” or v1 but it isn’t typically deployed except when the covenant need to excavate something.

The tyranid ability to reinforce when they have access to biomass isn’t fair that’s why they win. It typically takes them 50 days from entering a system to leaving the cold dead remains of a planet behind them, that’s a defended planet in the 40k verse. 

As a space faring race the tyranids have to create hides that survive re-entry into atmosphere (1,650 °C  (3,000 °F ) heat of atmospheric reentry .) they have these hides. They can adapt to heat based weaponry.

"An invisible psychic shield constantly projected around a Zoanthrope to protect itself from enemy attacks. The field is usually invisible except for a slight shimmer when it activates to absorb or deflect incoming fire.” this is the quote you were citing yes? Don’t elites have a constantly projected shield that flashes when activated? This is like that only it doesn’t get broken down.

The swarm lord is a further developed hive tyrant, it has access to all the psychic powers that hive tyrants do.

The heavy venom cannon fires at supersonic speeds, it can hit wraiths just fine and the electrical discharge means that only a glancing hit is necessary.

Other things of note that are a big deal>

 gene stealers; it doesn’t matter that you see them coming all they have to do is infect a couple creatures and there in, the only race that I would give resistance to this would be hunters. once a creature is infected it stealthily infects others, motions sensors don’t help when it’s your own units working against you under your nose.

Yes pre-adapted bio-titans would be small fry for a scarab but it’s weapons are still effective on the scarab and they also do another very scary thing, they cover the battlefield with spores messing with motion sensors, unprotected airways, and obscuring vision. While the tyranids are telepathically aware of the spores and are give exact real time awareness of their enemies positions relative to their own. (Venomthropes also do this.)

Trygons and mawlocs move underground at great speed allowing units with motion tracker only a few moments to react. These creatures also form an underground network that their troops can use for surprise attacks and moving troops in secret.

Warriors are the most common synapse creatures and they fight in squads, they are 7-8 feet tall and can take venom cannons and bonesword at the same time (Think tyranid elites). These are the creatures that will most likely be squaring up against the elites and brutes… and probably hunters. They are decent at range and superb in melee with great armour. 

Tervigons are less common synapse creatures (still not at all rare) that have psychic powers and spawn reinforcements on the battle field. They are around the size if not a bit bigger than a carnifex. They tend to stay back and let other biomorphs take the brunt while reinforcing their numbers.

Space craft… yes one on one covenant have the advantage, but whats the covenant typical fleet size? hundreds? thousands? The tyranid fleets attack in the billions it looks like a massive nebula filling the sky.

The tyranid do not use fair tactics they use winning ones, reinforcing themselves, adapting, turning your forces against you, this is what they do. They have the advantage in this fight, if you can’t accept that then I can’t help you.

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-04-28 17:24:31 +0000 UTC]

I was using the V1 Scarab, since the V2 was downgraded so players could beat it (which makes sense in a video game, not so much sense in a war-type scenario). Even the more destroyable 'Battle Scarab' takes several well placed shots to bring it down, unless the Tyranids manage to find that one sweet spot the Venom Cannon wouldn't do shit to it unless it hit the right spot.

And the Covenant bringing in an entire army via a Supercarrier isn't fair, that's why they win. Once they instigate a war, the hunt that race down to extinction and only stop after the entire planet has been glassed. And that's a defended planet in the Halo Universe. (That last part really doesn't add anything.)

Oh, 3,000f? Alright, so with 45 shots, assuming each shot hit the same place, that one spot would heat up to 31725F in a measly 45 rounds (The Plasma Rifle shots of 540 rounds/minute). Their exoskeleton melts within not even a clip and that's assuming every Tyranid has evolved with the same hide (which probably hasn't happened because warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ge… " this="" page<="" a=""> say's Genestealer's hides depend on what gene-stock they were created from, that implies its not a universally hard 'survive reentry' exoskeleton). The point I was making here is that the most common Covenant weapon is able to sear through Tyranids relatively easily.

Oh, that make's more sense, ha. Well, as you already said, constantly getting bombarded by the Scarab's forward facing laser and AA gun (the former can fire as long as it has its line of sight open and the latter has an effect range of 2.4 KM) both would keep the Scarab well out of harms away and the Plasma cannon's placed on each of its sides would aid in keeping Tyranids off it's legs, should any attempt to climb into it).

I don't think so. I've looked all over and I couldn't find any source saying the Swarm Lord had any type of Psychic abilities. Can you link me to a page that says this, or something?

You're assuming the Covenant won't try to hit the missile with their own fuel rod cannon. Or that's the Covenant's wont hear the loud as hell boom and get the hell out of the way. I mean, most Elites are able to keep up with Spartans, which implies they have a very fast reaction time, thus a loud boom would be something the Elite piloting the Wraith would be able to hear, than move accordingly before the Venom Cannon payload got close.

Genestealers: It does matter if the element of surprise is gone. Plasma weapons would burn through their hide in seconds, and the Brute's weapons would tear holes in them. Plus the Genestealers would have to accommodate for the shield that most upper levels had. If any Grunt or Jackal saw the bleeping red dot they would turn around and fire (I picked these two because they generally aren't shielded), a Plasma Pistol would burn into a Genestealer within shots and a plasma grenade would completely eradicate it (Grunts are fond of lobbing grenades) same with a Jackal, plus Jackal's generally carry around the wrist mounted shield's so as soon as the element of surprise is gone and the Jackal turns on that shield and starts firing its over.

Spores: Spores wouldn't mess with motion detectors, the Flood's spores certainly didn't, so there's no reason to think they would now. And, as I've already posed, would the spores even be able to get passed the shields? I mean, jackals would be fucked in that situation, but most grunts were gas masks and the higher level troops have shields, so I don't think any race besides the Jackals would be effected (and then some of the jackal's wear masks and such as well). The only real thing that would be effected is eyesight, but when you've got motion detectors who needs perfect eyesight?

Trygons & Mawlocs/Borrowing: Another tactic that only works without motion detectors. The motion detectors would show the Trygons and Mawlocs approaching, it would give them all the time they need to set up before the Nid bursts out of the ground and the same tactic works on any troops that try to use that same tunnel.

Warriors: An Elite would slaughter a Warrior, as would a Brute or a Hunter. No, I could see a Warrior being the mirror to an Elite, but Brutes and Hunter's are beyond them (in physical strength anyway). I mean, let's look at it as a 1-v-1 between a warrior and Elite, since the Warrior as a 'gun' and a melee weapon, we'll give the Elite the same (a Plasma Rifle and Energy Sword). The elite's faster reflexes give it the upper hand right away and allow it to fire off the first few shots before finding cover. The Venom cannon would be a hard weapon for the Elite to get around, but all the Elite would realistically have to do it take out the arm(s) that hold the weapon and then the fight goes turns to a sword fight. The Energy Sword can slice through bone without the Elite even trying (it can easily slice though the toughest metals, bone would be much much easier) and then the Warrior would be dead. Against a Brute with a Spiker and Gravity Hammer? That fight ends much faster, as does the fight against a Hunter. The Warrior, while a threat, could be easily dispatched.

Tervigons: Hunters.

Spacecraft: LOL, yes. Ok, let's start this debate. Let's say we use the Second Fleet of Homogeneous Clarity (ranging in the thousands). That fleet was composed of multiple Assault Carriers and multiple Super carriers! Supercarriers are beasts, by them selves an even match against entire fleets of ships. A single Supercarrier is armed with Seven Energy Projectors (the same type used to glass planets), any one of these would easily cut through a Tyranid ship, and continue on cutting through any ships behind it. 'Oh, but those are only aimed down' you say, I don't know if that's necessarily the case but even if it is the Supercarrier still has thousands of Pulse Laser Turrets which can burn through even the toughest metal in a single pulse, even the strongest exoskeleton will only save any one ship so long before the Pulse Laser rips into it. 'What about the faster moving ships that can't be hit twice in the same spot' you ask? While that's where the thousand of Plasma Turrets (armed with Plasma Torpedoes) come in! On the surface they may seem like the normal, dull superheated plasma that could burn through the exoskeleton of any ship within ten shots, but they are so much more than that. Plasma Torpedoes never miss a target (unless said target has boosters and uses them and a dodge at the right time), and their plasma burns through metal in a single hit (metal that is fit for reentry) so a single shot would cripple a ship and then a Pulse Laser comes in and finishes the job. The Supercarrier also houses hundreds of squadrons of Seraphs (which also fire Plasma Torpedoes). That's ONE Supercarrier, can you imagine six or seven mixed in with several hundred Assault Carriers? don't even get me started on the shields of these fellas. Fleet vs fleet, Covenant wins.

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foenfang In reply to rakaru [2014-05-01 06:41:34 +0000 UTC]

Sorry for the wait I didn’t have internet for a few days.

warhammer39999.wordpress.com/2… literally the first thing that shows up when googling “swarmlord psychic powers” Its from the newest rulebook edition(6th) I get most of my info from the 5th edition cause that’s the one I have.

The covenant super carrier isn’t an x factor everyone has big ships that transports troops, an example of a covenant x factor would be their ability to perform in system subspace jumps with literal pinpoint accuracy. Or the engineers you haven’t even brought them up, which is really weirding me out because they are the only things that build stuff like bases or weapons and they would be the ones analyzing the tyranids for weaknesses at a scientific level. It’s like you haven’t read any of the halo books or read into the background (In which case you would know that the v2 scarab is the mass produced weapon, and the v1 is a construction tool that they put an anti air turret on). I’m basing a lot of my knowledge off of the book "fall of reach” which goes over the origins of the spartans, several space conflicts, and a bunch of pretty kickass lore if you haven’t you should read it. (well that and the games obviously but I’m trying to stick to the book for lore)

The re-entry thing was used as an example of adaptability to heat and is in no way their limit. And I don’t see grunts or jackals hitting the exact same spot consistently on a single charging foe never mind a swarm of thousands. (an elite would even have difficulty)

A wraith tank is a large target and while it is agile it can’t dodge bullets, I don’t care if the elite reacts at a billionth of a second, the vehicle simply can’t dodge that fast.

As far as I can find the elites are the only ones with motion sensors and the range is 15-25 meters. please link me to whatever says that grunts have motion sensors. If this is the case then whoa nelly you’re gonna have a problem with stealth attacks and tracking tyranid movement. mind that in the bigger battles with the spore clouds only the elites would know where to fire. (Grunts already have crappy accuracy I’d hate to see a blind grunt try to shoot something)

Genstealers all they have to do is crawl slowly and carefully and they can bypass the motion detectors, or lay in ambush. Genestealers attack individuals at the fringes or scout groups, they hypnotize them with a psychic attack then inject them with gene seed, now you have some of your own units working against you which kinda wins as far as stealth attacks go you don’t expect your own troops to assassinate the commander or blow up your own assets. Even without the element of surprise they only need one hit once to be successful, and you can bet they’ll get more than one.(as a group)

Even with motion sensors when your being charged at ground level how do you react to an underground threat? you don’t your busy and then the ground explodes with this vehicle eating monster is ripping a hole in your lines before quickly descending underground again to hit somewhere else.  Or if 4 of these creatures hit a scarab and hit the legs immobilizing it, even better they make underground caverns that a scarab is to heavy to walk over. A scarab a couple hundred feet underground isn't much use in a fight cover it up and boom underground units are a big threat and when they’re travelling below 30m the motion sensors won’t pick them up and they can move with impunity. Even when you know they’re moving underground how do you stop them from bursting into building or facilities. Say you have a defended compound the tyranids can attack from inside and out at the same time, the crafting of underground tunnels should never be under estimated. 

A tyranid warrior on average is more capable in melee than WH40k space marines (please tell me that I don’t have to tell you how big a deal that is) one on one the elite loses in melee, one on one the brute loses in melee, one on one It’d be pretty even with hunters. The warrior carries a bonesword in one hand and a lash whip in another. (or two boneswords) And this is with two hands on the venom cannon. (It’s nice having 4 arms)

A bonesword "has a rudimentary sentience that allows it to gradually grow in length and repair any battle damage to itself and maintain a deadly monomolecular edge. … A bonesword is made of chitin  and constantly crackles with powerful psychic energy that flows along embedded nerve tendrils to create a psychic field around the blade, effectively creating a biological version of a force weapon . … The bonesword can generate a powerful surge of psychic energy when stimulated by its user “ It doesn’t get cut through, it can cut ANYTHING and if it touches you, you’re dead.

 A lash whip "A Lash Whip is a Tyranid  Bio-weapon  in the form of a living whip with three tentacles of muscle and sinew that writhe of their own accord and strike at their prey, too fast to be dodged or parried, independently of their wielder's actions. Enemies that are not sliced apart by the bony hooks at the end of each tentacle are aimed to be captured and ensnared so they become easier prey for the Tyranid in control.[1] [2]  A Lash Whip has a small body contained within a bony tube which forms the handle of the whip, and has three tentacles which form the rest of its body. The creature survives by slicing flesh from its victims and consuming them.[3]  ”   

And did I forget to mention that they can get wings if need be.(then they’re called shrikes)

Tervigon; to get to the tervigon the hunter would have to fight through hundreds if not thousands of other biomorphs like hormagaunts, termagants, warriors, and carnifexes, (or maybe a zoanthrope and we both know the hunter is just dead there), before coming near the tervigon which spawns more allies has psychic powers and can rip tanks in half. The answer is not “hunter” it would take a joint action just to get to it.

Space craft; I know full well the abilities of the covenant space craft, even if each ship takes out thousands it’s nowhere near enough. The tyranid ships have to fight things that drop one torpedo and kills a planet, and things that shoot singularities, and the tyranid still win. You have to look at it as a matter of scale the covenant controls a large portion of one galaxy while the tyranid eat galaxies. The tyranid are on more like a forerunner scale than covenant and that’s the honest truth.

 

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-05-01 20:10:37 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, the other guy told me the Swarmlord is like a 6th level Psyker or something. Sorry about that.

The Covenant's Capital Ships are an X factor, as you pointed out before the ships were often the 'trump card' in the Human-Covenant War. I haven't brought up the Engineers yet because we're talking about the battle, so I've kept my mind preoccupied with the battle field instead of building bases/analysing the enemy aspect of it, which I suppose I should have gotten into though.

"The re-entry thing was used as an example of adaptability to heat and is in no way their limit. And I don’t see grunts or jackals hitting the exact same spot consistently on a single charging foe never mind a swarm of thousands."

Jackals main loadout is the needler or the Particle Accelerator Beam rifle, the former wouldn't need to hit the exact same spot everytime, the Neddler's natural tracking and explosiveness would kill and Tyranid it exploded on and the latter would mainly act as a sniper with an excellent aim (plus, the PAB's ammunition always goes through whatever its hitting meaning a head shot would be fatal. Grunt's main loadout is the Plasma Pistol, which fully charged is several times hotter than any one blast from the Plasma Rifle and thus would take less shots to make the same wound.

"A wraith tank is a large target and while it is agile it can’t dodge bullets, I don’t care if the elite reacts at a billionth of a second, the vehicle simply can’t dodge that fast."

If the Elite can react fast enough, the Wraith would dodge it. Simply pressing on the gas would dodge the Venom Cannon's payload.

"As far as I can find the elites are the only ones with motion sensors and the range is 15-25 meters. please link me to whatever says that grunts have motion sensors. If this is the case then whoa nelly you’re gonna have a problem with stealth attacks and tracking tyranid movement. mind that in the bigger battles with the spore clouds only the elites would know where to fire. (Grunts already have crappy accuracy I’d hate to see a blind grunt try to shoot something)"

The Elites and the higher level Jackals have motion sensors, the Grunts don't and I don't know if Brutes do or not. But that wouldn't matter, the Elites are the commanders of any given squad, the Grunts will do what they say, if the Elite says 'get away from the center of the room' the Grunts will do it, then they will open fire when the Ravener(or whatever) erupts from the ground.

"Genstealers all they have to do is crawl slowly and carefully and they can bypass the motion detectors, or lay in ambush."

Isn't that giving them foreknowledge of the motion sensor? Sure, they might move slow but when they get so close they're just going to jump for it, which would alert whomever they are going after, and if its an Elite or Brute, that Genestealer is dead. And since an Elite/Brute are always the leaders of squads, they would always be there. How would it only take one hit? If it was a Grunt of Jackal, sure, but even then the Elite/Brute comes in, kills the Genestealer, he probably kills the Grunt too for falling into the trap or because he saw the Genestrealer's tongue inside of it.

I'm in the battle, enemies are in front of me so my motion sensor is just beeping up a storm. Then, one of these red dots darts past the line and right under, because I can move 20 milliseconds after noticing this I can jump back before it jumps out and fire into the stomach/face while my squad watches the line. The Scarab is always maned by several Elites, as soon as one leg was hit they would take out the Nid that hit it, but this is all assuming they would even go for the legs and not just attempt to take it outright by lunging into the body of the machine. Burying one Scarab might be bad, but when there are four or five Scarabs? Plus, Scarabs are incredibly agile, it may be able to crawl out of the hole given sufficient incline. If they hide 30M underground they would still have to come up to attack, and that would give the Covi's pleanty of time to react. With motion senor guards walking around, it may sound easy to pop in and out, but those guards are able to react within milliseconds of your moving within their motion sensor's range, they could prime up a grenade, what for you to pop up and lob the thing down your gullet, or stick it onto your back/belly.

One on one with an Elite/Brute, the Elite/Brute wins. See, anyone can say that, prove it. No I'm going to break this part into sections:

Energy Sword v Bone Sword/Lash whip. Energy Sword wins. It literally cannot be harmed in any way, it can slice through even the toughest metals easily, there is absolutely no reason to think it couldn't cut through chitin easily. The two great things about the Bone Sword, though, are its 'regenerative' abilities and the Psychic attack... but. The Energy Sword would slice the thing in half. Chitin, as far as I can find the Chitin can only be as strong as most more durable metals, but it would fall before the Energy Sword's Plasma gas. Second, the Psychic attacks would be a death blow for sure... if they hit the Elite. The shield would be able to take a few hits from the sword, and the Elite would be able to react fast enough so as to take as few hits as possible, If an Elite is allowed to use an Energy sword, his trained with the weapon his whole life, he'd be an expert combatant. The shield + the superior cutting power of the Energy sword means it wins against the Bone Sword. More or less the same for the whip, the Elite would be able to act fast enough to slice the meat apart (it is just muscle, it would fall easily to the energy sword).

Bone Sword/Lash whip v Gravity Hammer. This is were I'd give the edge to the Tyranids, at least initially. So long as the Tyranid managed to dodge the Hammer, it would win, but if the Nid got even a glancing blow of the weapon, he's down, I mean the Gravity Hammer can easily toss around Warthogs which weigh in at 3 tons.

Tervigon; It would be a joint effort, but the answer is still Hunters.

Space craft; It's not a matter of scale, this is not the entire Covenant vs the entire Tyranids (The Covenant would lose), this is a single fleet vs a single fleet, and the Covenant's fleet is simply better armed and would take this battle in the sky. They out power and our defend their ships much better than the Tyranids.

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foenfang In reply to rakaru [2014-04-26 05:02:50 +0000 UTC]

The swarm lord has 4 arms the hunter has one shield besides that the swarm lord uses boneswords which are psychically charged you can be as indestructible as you like you’re brain is still fried. Besides the swarm lord has its own psychic powers that can hit both of the hunters at same time. I can see a scarab shooting it or stepping on it, I can see banshee kamikaze heavily wounding it if not killing it or a couple plasma grenades attached directly to face, but the swarmlord has been evolving and learning form eons of combat and it is very good at not getting killed.

Anyway with this weapons advantage thing, I’m not doubting the power of covenant weapons they are quite devastating I’m saying the tyranid weapons are equally effective against the covenant and once the adaption takes place them having that weapon variety is preventing them from being wiped out. The tyranids make up for losses by consuming fallen biomass, the covenant cannot rebuild their losses at nearly the same rate, this combined with the rapid adaption means there will be a period where the covenant are taking heavier losses, therefore the tyranid weapons are more effective...

I just started thinking that I’m arguing a different category then weapons… it kinda goes into numbers and tactics…

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rakaru In reply to foenfang [2014-04-26 05:24:19 +0000 UTC]

Hunter's are made up of hundreds of thousands of worm like beings, each with their own mind and psyche. To effectively take out the Hunter like that it would take weeks (if not years), all the while the Swarmlord is taking hit after hit of the Fuel Rod Cannon, even if the thing is able to stand 12000 without it's exoskeleton failing, when constantly being bombarded with a 800+ degree beam, that's going to completely destroy the Swarmlord.

The Tyranid's weapons aren't equally effective, you've shown two examples, the Impalar Cannon would fail some of the Covenant vehicles and such are made out of the same indestructible matterial as the Hunter's shield, and I don't think ever Tyranid would have this weapon, and the Heavy Venom Cannon would fail do to it's not being nearly strong enough to destroy a Wraith (for example), I also highly doubt there are going to be Tyranids running around with this weapon. The Covenant weapons would be more than enough to take out Tyranids until they evolved and then... Oh, no, the Covenant's weapons are still able to hurt them even with precautions against Plasma. Also, we want an even playing field here, don't we? Why do the Tyranids get to consume biomass whilst the Covenant are forced to not call for reinforcements? Both sides would naturally do those actions when in dire straights, so if the Tyranids are allowed to consume biomass, the Covenant should be allowed to call for reinforcements.

In a completely level playing field, where both sides are allowed to gain more warriors, the advantage in weapons clearly go to the covenant (I'd even say the number about even out too).

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TheMonkeysUnkle In reply to rakaru [2014-12-13 18:27:32 +0000 UTC]

Honestly, the problem with every argument you've made is that you severely underestimate the tyranids' offensive and defensive capabilities on all fronts.

Also, since you clearly didn't get it, the hunter shield and scarab armour being invincible? Hyperbole. Nothing is invincible.

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rakaru In reply to TheMonkeysUnkle [2014-12-13 18:49:19 +0000 UTC]

Just saying an argument fails without actually showing how it failed does nothing to strengthen your argument.

Uh, you have the same problem here as before. Saying something is wrong without showing any evidence for why it is wrong does nothing to weaken the argument. Its tantamount to saying "your wrong and I'm right" and then walking away.

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TheMonkeysUnkle In reply to rakaru [2014-12-26 00:01:15 +0000 UTC]

That's because everything you've said is wrong, and anyone who actually knows about the capabilities of both sides knows this is one sided in favour of the nids.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-04-27 18:29:46 +0000 UTC]

What is this, the venom cannon could easily harm a scarab never mind the wraith. The wraith is a light skimmer mortar tank it is not a main battle tank. It can be killed by a spartans fist, a heavy venom cannon can burn through every known material that's part of being an anti tank weapon. Foenfang is making good points and your ignoring them. Yes we realize that the covenant ranged weapons are pretty good... vs. fucking humans in flack armour. Tyranids in their carapaces are far tougher and bigger. The elites plasma rifle has a hard time dealing with marines, from my experience with halo wars and all the halo games you're making it seem like covenant weapons are better than they are. The tyranids have weapons on equal if not better footing at every level. You must consider actual field proven effectiveness for each faction. The covenant invasion of reach is what I shall reference. The covenant had trouble against the humans when they had less numbers. With more numbers they were able to overrun the humans with heavy losses due to the spartans. For Tyranids just go on youtube and watch miniwar gamings warhammer 40k history tyranids it explains it fairly well. 

This is stupid, they are on an even playing field if they are droped on opposite sides of the planet with equal numbers. The tyranids multiplying and evolving is WHAT THEY ARE. This is not an unfair advantage its an X factor for the Tyranids. You do not get to have anything more than your opponent that is an equal fight. Tyranids can survive shots from rail guns (If your unfamiliar thats a mac cannon on a smaller scale) amoungst other things. Foenfang has not properly explained what the tyranids are capable of, having read and played using their current codex this is unfortunately and obviously a one sided and hopeless fight where the covenant forces all die. This is because of the actual effectiveness of each team when they are on equal ground. 

Simply put, if you have to give the covenant a super carrier to let them match the nids this is a clear indication of what team is superior.

Tyranids have more and more powerful units, they covenant only has the scarab. And as proven throughout the halo games the scarab is not enough of an advantage.

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ty…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsHRsu…


Honestly don't argue against a faction unless you know as much as possible about it.
The Tyranids have bio plasma that is just as good as covenant wraiths and adrenal glands. They are design over the course of MILLIONS OF YEARS OF DEVOURING EVERY OPPONENT EVERY GALAXY HAS TO OFFER. If you read their actual facts then you know they beat the covenant, the covenant has a hard time with the flood and the Tyranids are bigger faster smarter more powerful and more adaptable than the flood.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-04-27 18:55:31 +0000 UTC]

Scarabs are indestructible, so nothing the Tyranids have could ever destroy a Scarab, that does not mean the Scarab couldn't be taken out though, I'm sure the Venom canon could kill the soldiers inside the Scarab. The Wraith is fast, the Venom Cannon cannot hit it. Would a direct hit be enough to disable a Wraith? Probably, the problem is getting that hit. Wraith's can out maneuver most anti-tank weapons the trouble isn't whether or not the Venom Cannon could destroy the Wraith, its whether or not it could hit the Wraith in the first place. Like I said to Foenfang, you cannot use actual game play, you have to use the lore (The game is going to make it easier for the player, and so doesn't actually count). The Covenant's weapons completely sear flesh from bone, that's the nature the plasma, and it would wreck anything that is less durable than the most hardened metal. Bone, no matter how tough, can never meet the durability of metal, the Plasma wepaons easily tear through ANY Tyranid they run into.

Giving one side the ability to gain more numbers from the dead is a clear advantage, if you cannot see that you are bias as hell. But, hey, let's go with this 'X factor', the Covenant's X Factor is their ships (which can carry more than a few thousand troops, wraiths, ghosts, banshees, drop ships, etc; ). The Covenant wins due to just the amount of the better and more diverse weapons.

The Covenant have TONS more than the Scarab.

Unless you can actually prove ANY of these claims, the Covenant take this battle easy.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-04-28 19:13:52 +0000 UTC]

Ima quote halo 2, "scarabs are tough but not indestructible we've all run the simulations they can be taken down with enough fire power!"

Nothing is indestructible, if you look at the lore not the game you'd realize this. Also wraiths explode when a frag grenade is dropped inside, a venom cannon is capable of blasting apart tonns of steal with every shot.

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ty…
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom…

It fires at extremely high speed, but here just read this if your going to ignore what I say.
"The Venom Cannon fires salvos of crystals formed of highly corrosive poison[2]  and then coated in a metallic, venomous reside. They are launched with an electrostatic charge at tremendous velocities. A target, if not killed outright by the impact, will be shredded by the hailing shards of shattered crystal, or by the corrosive poison from the shattered crystals. They are also effective against vehicle armour, shattering within the bulkheads of a tank and killing the crew."

"The Heavy Venom Cannon is a larger and deadlier version of the venom cannon that launches a greater crystal payload at supersonic speeds. The shot collides with enough force to cave in enemy tanks, and also releases a residue of the electrostatic firing charge upon collison in a lethal blast of electrical energy"

Oh yea and you know what happens to a wraith when a fully charged plasma pistol hits it, the same thing as when a venom cannon hits it. It turns off, sad face for the pilot.

We've only just scratched the surface of the hundreds of capabilities of the Tyranids. I've played all the halo games and all the warhammer 40k games, they do not compare this is not a fair fight.
The Tyranids are faster and stronger and bigger and more plentiful. You can't bring ships unless the bugs get them too by the way that's part of this discussion.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-04-28 21:57:32 +0000 UTC]

As I already sai to Foenfang (I think I'm spelling that right), I generally go off the first version of the Scarab, later versions were toned down in order to be fought against in the game. But we'll go with the later versions if that will make it more even. The later version Scarabs are not indestructable, but their only weak spots are the joints just above their 'feet' and it takes four-five missiles to take it down. Good luck doing that while getting hit with a laser that both explodes before it burns away flesh and bone and an AA gun that fires 250 rounds a minute.

And if speed was the long thing the Wraith had I would be worried. I am more or less repeating myself here but whatever, Elites (and Brutes) are able to keep up with John-117, this implies they have, roughly, the same reaction time (20 milliseconds), which means when they here the boom of a Heavy Venom Cannon they can move the Wraith within 20 milliseconds to a safer spot. All the while firing the Fuel Rod Cannon and the Turret.

You know what happens to a Carnifex when it gets hit by a superheated. exploding ball of plasma? It catches on fire, supers multiple 4th degree burns, it's internal liquids evaporate in a flash. Pretty much the same thing that happens any time a plasma round from the Turret hits it.

Lol, 1 Supercarrier would destroy an entire Tyranid fleet, while also supplying thousands of troops, vehicles, and other resources.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-04-29 14:17:29 +0000 UTC]

So when thousands of Tyranids bioforms crawl up and inside the scarab that not a problem, when hundreds of powerful bio plasma and heavy venome cannon shots nail it thats not a problem? Sorry but scarabs aren't that great. And even In halo 2 they blatently stated that it was not indestructible.

Um due to being supersonic when a heavy venom cannon fires you hear the boom after it hits. This is true for even modern day air craft weaponry. It's travelling at more than 300 meters per second, this is a weapon where you must react before it fires. And venom broods bring dozens of these into battle.

A carnifex has survived being hit by warhammer 40k plasma cannons. "Weapons work by using hydrogen fuel suspended in a cryogenic state, in either fuel flasks or backpack containers. As the fuel is fed into the miniature fusion core inside the weapon, the hydrogen energises into plasma which is held in the core of the weapon by powerful electromagnetic containment fields. When fired, the fields dilate open and the plasma is ejected via a linear magnetic accelerator as a bolt of superheated matter akin to a solar flare in appearance and temperature"

Here is the temperature of the surface of a sun...

5,778 K
5504.85 Celsius
9940.73 Fahrenheit

Temperature of plasma in 40k...

3.5 million degrees F

Carnifexes breath plasma in giant gobs at enemies, this is bio plasma. Bio plasma is warhammer 40k plasma.
And the Carnifex walks it off. It is made mostly of diamond like minerals and carbon, it's internals are capable of producing bio plasma.

An entire Tyranid fleet? Tyranid hive ships have many weapons at their disposal and are so numerous that in order to beat them the Imperium has a policy of blowing up every planet in their path to starve them. 
The Tyranid hive mind will make any ship crew who comes to close regret it, the trillions of bio-forms in the fleet are capable of any weapon the hive mind has. Also any ship destroyed even by plasma which is a standard weapon in 40k will be re consumed and rebuilt in short order. 
Not to mention the psychic attacks of the hive mind, the covenant have no defense against their crews brains leaking out. Or maybe we just make the elite who's in charge head explode.

3750m is how long an imperial strike cruiser is.
A tyranid hive ship is this times a lot, actually it is so huge I makes a super carrier seem tiny in comparison.
I'll admit their actually bigger and more powerful than I originally thought.

thetyranidhive.proboards.com/t…


Also the swarm lord is a psyker mastery level 3.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-04-29 17:12:07 +0000 UTC]

You are aware the Scarab is armed with turrets, right? Turrets with unlimited ammo that burns through the 'lesser' Nids in one to two shots, then they all find themselves on a leg that's an easy place to defend, plus other soilder's behind the turrets lobbing energy grenades and firing their own superheated plasma. No, Tyranids climbing over the leg isn't a problem. And as you can see from This video, the Scarab can take several missiles and show no signs of even realizing it was hit. And, as I've been saying this entire time, everyone of those Carnifexs would be having to deal with the Scarab's fire power, and the Scarab's fire power obliterates anything less durable than metal fit for reentry.

Supersonic things make the while they break the sound barrier. But that's all aside, the sheer noise the thing would make while it fired would be enough to give it away and give whomever is piloting the Wraith ample time to move to a safe location. Or hit the Heavy Venom Cannon with the Fuel Rod Cannon.

Plasma in Halo isn't the same as in 40K, its so much better. Their plasma uses a much, much different type of gas which completely changes the final product. Also the plasma in Halo isn't measured in heat, its measured in KVs. So... Not even close to being the same thing at all. On top of all of that, Halo (or Bungie I guess) hasn't given and degrees the plasma reaches, I got the 705F off of assuming it was like water (which it wouldn't be, cause its a gas and all).

Can you link me to a page that says what Carnifex's hid is? I've been looking for it but have yet to find anything that could tell me. Oh, and there are some small incongruities with that, diamond melts at around 1230F, so... if what you're saying is true about the 40k plasma, a Carnifax would be dead super quick.

You really want to have the talk about ships? Covenant wins. Most of their weapons, the Pulse Lasers and Plasma Turrets which fire tracking Plasma Torpedoes, are able to punch through metal within a single shot (which means they heat up to degrees several times hotter than reentry), and a single Supercarrier is armed with thousands of those, then add the energy projectors, the same weapons they use to glass entire planets, these would slice through any Tyranid ship like butter. Then there are Seraphs, smaller faster ships that are able to fire Plasma Torpedoes as well. And if we are talking about a big fleet here, like the Second Fleet of Homogeneous Clarity, there are multiples of these bad boys. Not to mention their incredible shields (which can take 499 HAVOC missiles with only a handful actually scratching the ship. ) Then there are Assault Carriers, which are simply smaller versions of the Supercarrier. And all of their weapons work excellently at long range, good luck Psykers.

When size matter's we'll call the Nids. They have nothing that could even attempt to break the shields of a supercarrier while the supercarrier's Energy Progectors could literally cut the thing in half while plasma torpedoes and pulse lasers cut into every other ship. The Nis ship just can't win against a fleet of Covenant Ships.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-04-30 04:31:54 +0000 UTC]

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Carni…

I have played all the halo games I've played that seen in halo 3, this is nothing new to me.

Those missiles are tiny in comparison to what the Tyranids use, and weak.

A super carrier is 28 km long, its a spec to the tyranids. One tenatacle of one hive ship is big enough that with a swing it would slam several of them.
When it comes to destructive forces we know a super carrier loses it's shields when high charity slams into it, halo 3.
The Tyranid ships single arm has over 20x that destructive force. Also in combat with imperial navy the covenant fleet wins.
The imperial navy use cyclonic torpedoes. These blow up planets in one shot. And way more guns than even the super carrier.

halo.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma

Also the plasma in halo melts titanium fairly quickly but not immediately. There is melting not flash fry or direct state change from solid to gas. This means that
The halo plasma is around 6000 degrees celsius and or 10832 degrees farenheit.

And this is assuming that the UNSC is using some kind of super metal that is better than normal titanium alloys. Which according to halo lore they aren't.

Also that clip showed that the scarab in the midst of combat is brought down very easily. I don't think the difficulty was legendary so not lore accurate.
It should be a bit tougher. Unforunetaly the Tyranids would still slaughter it.

Covenant lose shields to UNSC weapons which are weaker and slower than the Nids. Due to being evolved for war for millenia all tyranids are faster and more reactive than elites.

Also all Tyranids are made from the material they make planet fall in, this is because they literally ride down to the planet in other tyranids.

Carnifexes have a tougher Hide that the creature that survives reentry for them, they don't actually need it but it can guide them to a combat zone on the way down.

Did I not state that tyranids literally build up star level temperatures inside themselves and spit it at their enemies. They also evolve to ignore heat to an even greater extent when enemies use temperature and other based weapons.

Tyranids ships are made of the planets they eat, they find the densest and most durable materials possible organise em s their better them make themselves out of said materials.

And yes I was wrong about the carnifex hide it is actually made of better materials by far.

By the way we haven't even mentioned a third of the units the Tyranids have.

Genestealers, Rippers, Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Hive Guards, lictors, venomthropes, Gargoyles, Raveners, Spores, Shrikes are al creatures capable of competing with or surpassing covenant Forces on the ground in their individual roles.

Biovores, Exocrines, Mawlocs, Trygons, and the Tyrannofex are all threats to a scarab.


All these creatures have varying loadouts and capabilities ranging from psychic powers to poison clouds to brute strength to just being a GIANT gun on legs.

I know that Tyranids are bullshit, they are but everything in the 40k verse is ridiculously overpowered and the tyranids are supposed to be scary there.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-04-30 19:52:05 +0000 UTC]

What about the Carnifex?

Uh, no. The missiles are used to destroy tanks, they are exactly comparable to any, and all, other anti tank weapons. And they did no damage whatso ever against the Scarab. The Scarab > Anything the tyranids can pump out.

*cough*"These ships were durable enough to withstand one nuclear mine detonation, or even three Magnetic Accelerator Cannon rounds and nearly five hundred Archer missiles ." So, unless a single arm is capable of producing more energy then a 30 megaton bomb, they aren't destroying any Super-carriers, and unless they can do more damage than 3 MAC shells + nearly 500 missiles, they aren't even getting past the shield.
Now, here's some math for you. A MAC (Magnetic Accelerator Cannon) fires 600 ton shells (of titanium or depleted uranium) at 30,000 m/s, we can calculate the kinetic force of that impact  (½mass*velocity squared), where mass is 544311 kg and velocity is 30,000 m/s, a single MAC round would hit the ship with 244,939,950,000,000 J of force times that by 3, because the shield held for three MAC shots, and that 734,819,850,000,000 J. Plus the HAVOC missiles, which we'll say are roughly equal to a modern day Harpoon missile, which with a mass of 691 kg and a velocity of 240 m/s has a 19,900,800 J, then times 488, gives us an end result of 9,711,590,400 J. Add both of them to get 734,829,561,590,400 J (or 734 TJ, for comparison 63 terajoules were released by the atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima.) There is no way the Tyranids will EVER break that shield, especially while they are getting fucked by the lasers.

The titanium in halo is different than modern day titanium. " It is composed of a high-grade Titanium-50[1] alloy, specially strengthened at the molecular level,[2] that is usually greyish in color." That sentence says it all. In real life, Titanium-50 makes up 8% of the actual titanium in nature, so there is no way they are using that 8% and stretching it out to make ships, they are talking about a different type of Titanium-50, on top of that its strengthened on the molecular level, further pushing it from the realms to today. You cannot say how hot Halo Plasma is, unless you know the heat resistance of Titanium-A, which we can guess at but not truly know.

In that video they had a computer helping them spot weakpoints, the Tyranids down work like that. They wont notice the weakpoints of the Scarab and thus aim there less. Even then, it would take several antitank shots to bring it down.

"Covenant lose shields to UNSC weapons which are weaker and slower than the Nids. Due to being evolved for war for millenia all tyranids are faster and more reactive than elites."

Yes... after several clips. Again, I've only seen two weapons used as examples, and they were both anti tank weapons. Covenant (especially Elites/Brutes) would be able to dodge antitank weapons. Prove it. Give me some lore that says they have a faster reaction time then 20milliseconds or Elites are faster.

"Also all Tyranids are made from the material they make planet fall in, this is because they literally ride down to the planet in other tyranids."

I've already said why that doesn't matter. Going of the lowest heat the plasma could be (705F) it would take exactly 30 shots of a Plasma Rifle to melt through the armor of a Nid that was able to survive reentry, which not all Tyranids are able to do, like the Genestealers (I've mentioned that before.)

"Carnifexes have a tougher Hide that the creature that survives reentry for them, they don't actually need it but it can guide them to a combat zone on the way down."

Again, the hide doesn't matter when the Plasma gets through it in 30 shots. And the Carnifex is a huge target, its going to be shot from a lot of different angles a hell of a lot more times than it would take to burnt through its carapace.

"Tyranids ships are made of the planets they eat, they find the densest and most durable materials possible organise em s their better them make themselves out of said materials."

Kinda got lost in this, but whatever. Most Covenant Ships (like the Super carrier) is equiped with beams that they use to destroy planets... so... hiding in the skin of something these ships readily destroy isn't going to help.

"Genestealers, Rippers, Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Hive Guards, lictors, venomthropes, Gargoyles, Raveners, Spores, Shrikes are al creatures capable of competing with or surpassing covenant Forces on the ground in their individual roles."

All of these would be taken out by a group of Elites plus one or two Brutes. Not even mentioning the ten or twenty Grunts and sniping Jackals.

"Biovores, Exocrines, Mawlocs, Trygons, and the Tyrannofex are all threats to a scarab."

Lol, no. The Scarab is bigger and better than all of these.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-04-30 23:38:04 +0000 UTC]

Dude I seriously hope yur trolling because according to your own math I'm right.

734,819,850,000,000 J is nothing
That's a large rail gun.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=afhT2M…

Yup impenetrable shields all right, that rock must have gone super saiyan.

I've already stated that the mass of Tyranid ships is ridiculous. 

47000 Mt

is the force an asteroid hits with, the same mass as the tyranids ship claws and at similar speed.

"Lol, no. The Scarab is bigger and better than all of these."

You've already said before that bigger isn't better, all of these creatures can hurt the scarab because all of them have proven to hurt things like titans. Which are the same size and have equal weapons. They also swamp it all at the same time.

"Again, the hide doesn't matter when the Plasma gets through it in 30 shots. And the Carnifex is a huge target, its going to be shot from a lot of different angles a hell of a lot more times than it would take to burnt through its carapace."

Uhm you realize that since tyranids attack in one giant wave you'ed have to focus creatures down giving all the rest time to get to the covi's. The Carnifex is one in hundreds of creature's of it's size category and comes in groups of three supported by dozens of other creatures.

"All of these would be taken out by a group of Elites plus one or two Brutes. Not even mentioning the ten or twenty Grunts and sniping Jackals."

So a group of creatures proven to overrun planets gets taken down by something an odst force ca kill, I'm sorry this sentence is retarded.
You must read and understand both sides of this debate and play the games for both sides of this debate before you can judge what these creatures are capable of.

It takes the covies several days to glass a planet, not blow it the fuck up. Also they don't destroy planets they merely scoure the surface down to the tectonic. That is not enough.

This conversation is getting annoying.

Have you played halo wars?

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-01 19:15:44 +0000 UTC]

"734,819,850,000,000 J is nothing
That's a large rail gun."

Uh, sorry, it's not. The normal Railgun fires small projectiles, we can assume somewhere under 1 ton since the Tau are supposed to be able to carry multiple rounds at a time (From Here and here the Tau are slightly weaker than the average human). At most, these shells way 1 ton, but they do go somewhere between 6 to 10 times the speed of sound (the average of that being 8 times the speed of sound, which is 2,722.32 m / s) using the formula we used earilier, we can discern the normal Railgun hits with 3,360,900,373.72 J, not even a quarter of the force it would take to break the shield. Now, the heavy Railgun we can assume fire much larger shells (maybe something in the 200 ton range), at faster speeds (maybe somewhere in the 11 to 15 times the speed of sound range [4,423.77 m / s]), which means it would hit with 1,775,337,550,078.77 J, which STILL isn't even a quarter of the force needed to break the shield. Let's say the Nids have a super Railgun that fires 600 ton shells at 55 times the speed of sound (18,715.95 m / s), that would give it 95,332,474,952,454.6 J, it would still take something like 5 shots to be get the shields down. Oh, and you know that nuke that I mentioned earlier? That went off inside the shield and the ship survived, meaning the ships hull is can survive 30 megatons (equivalent to 125 petajoules or 125 quadrillion joules).

"Yup impenetrable shields all right, that rock must have gone super saiyan."

How many times would you like me to repeat that I am operating off the lore of both games? 'Cause I've done it four times now.

"47000 Mt

is the force an asteroid hits with, the same mass as the tyranids ship claws and at similar speed."

How, exactly, do you know the mass of the claw? For all you know, the claw could be hollow, which would give it an overall smaller mass and make this entire assumption falls. all that side, any one of the Covenant's weapons would be able to tear through the arm before it hit, plasma torpedoes could melt the claw into a gooy paste. The shields and hull are great defenses, but so are the weapons that would rip through the less durable carapace.

"You've already said before that bigger isn't better, all of these creatures can hurt the scarab because all of them have proven to hurt things like titans. Which are the same size and have equal weapons. They also swamp it all at the same time."

The Scarab's main cannon would tear through any one Bio-titan in seconds, the AA gun (depending on which incarnation we're going with it could have 1 or 2) could burn through them as well as provide knock back, then of course there are the other's inside of Scarab lobbing energy grenades, firing plasma and kinetic-based weapons. And since there are multiple capital ships there are more than likely going to be multiple Scarabs.

"Uhm you realize that since tyranids attack in one giant wave you'ed have to focus creatures down giving all the rest time to get to the covi's. The Carnifex is one in hundreds of creature's of it's size category and comes in groups of three supported by dozens of other creatures."

Uhm, you realize since the Tyranids attack in one giant wave, the Covenant would just have to fire forward to hit something? And the bigger weapons (Turrets, Neddler, Spiker, Brute Shot, and Concussion Rifle) would knock back huge groups of them while simultaneously burning all those around it? If an Elite is shooting at this Carnifex with a Cuncussion Rifle, its going to push him back, scorch his carapace, heat up his internal organs, while also doing the same thing to the Carnifex/other Tyranid next to him. Plus the other Elite and the ten or twenty grunts firing their plasma weapons which burn through most of the lower Nids in under ten shots, throwing grenades that melt away the juicey bits such as eyes.

"So a group of creatures proven to overrun planets gets taken down by something an odst force ca kill, I'm sorry this sentence is retarded."

So a squad of an army that's been hunting other races to extinction and overrun planets gets taken down by something a Space Marine force can kill, I'm sorry this sentence is retarded. See, anyone can do that, kiddo.

"This conversation is getting annoying."

So leave, whose making you reply?

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-03 16:44:42 +0000 UTC]

They both have their strong points and weak points.

The claw on a tyranid ship is so big that even hollow it has this mass.

When I say a large rail gun Im not talking about the tau.
I'm Talking about a ship size rail gun.

You litrally looked at a list of an ARMY and said a few squads can kill it.

These units come at a minimum in groups of 5. ALL of them.
When you see a list for warhammer thats a list of squads not individual units.

I will never leave.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-03 17:01:49 +0000 UTC]

But a hollow claw would lack a lot of mass, plus it wouldn't be able to put out the same kind of force as a filled claw, for obvious reasons.

Do Tyranids even have ANY railguns? What is the ship that has/is the railgun that you're talking about?

Haven't you've been looking at a list of an ARMY and said a few squads could kill em? I mean, I say 'Elite, Brute, Grunt' and you say 'A warrior could take them out whilst drinking tea'.

Covenant unites come in groups ranging in the tens, and several hundred units are out and about at any given time.

I don't actually care if you leave, I just find it annoying when people complain when the option to leave is present.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-04 05:54:30 +0000 UTC]

I didn't say whilst drinking tea

The venom cannon has the same capability of a rail gun of it's size.

Having played the halo games especially halo wars I have tons of respect of what a group of covenant elites can do.

Halo two as the arbiter is the perfect example.

But when the warriors show up they are in groups of 12 usually ad they all have four limbs.

A venom cannon and melee weapons. It's not a fair fight because an elite is the sae skill but smaller and with less limbs.

He's also got grunts bringing him down whears a warrior brood is just that.

A bunch of full on warriors.

I respect your opionions and maybe I'm nicer right now cause I'm drunk but It's not a fair fight.

Warhammer is bullshit, everything they bring into their universe is overpowered and silly.

I can't see the the covenant beating a realy seriously broken team like the tyranid.

They are broken and unfair I fuckin hate them but they are. Broken even in their own universe.

I play Daemons one of the two teams even more broken then them.

Sorry If I annoy I never intend to, I do enjoy debates especially with smart people.

Thx.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-04 16:14:43 +0000 UTC]

"The venom cannon has the same capability of a rail gun of it's size."

Well, let's see, a Heavy Venom Cannon fires its payload at supersonic speed (generally these have a Mach number of 2 to 5) the 'normal' railgun fires small ammunition at 5 to 10 times the speed of sound, let's just say its 5x which would be 1,701.45 m / s. Mach number's are calculated by the velocity of the object (here, thats 1,701.45 m/s) divided by the speed of sound (340.29 m/s) which gives us a Mach number of 5, which means 'normal' railguns do, indeed, fire at hypersonic speeds. The larger railguns that are put onto ships fire faster than the normal railguns, so we can assume those go into the hypersonic category at which point they they are faster, and hit with more of a bang because of it.

"But when the warriors show up they are in groups of 12 usually ad they all have four limbs. A venom cannon and melee weapons. It's not a fair fight because an elite is the sae skill but smaller and with less limbs. He's also got grunts bringing him down whears a warrior brood is just that. A bunch of full on warriors."

Elites generally move in pairs surrounded by ten Grunts and a few Jackals. Now, if you want to saw the Grunts aren't actual warriors that's just fine, but the fact of the matter is they will do what the Elite tells them to do, they will take cover and fire at the warriors with the Elites and the Jackals. The Jackals will most probably be using Needlers, which means blowing off limbs is as easy as pie from behind their wrist mounted shield. This squad of the Covenant would slaughter this squad of Tyranids.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-06 05:17:38 +0000 UTC]

The venom cannon has the same damage yield as the rail guns in warhammer, that's how strong they are not neccessarily because of how hard they hit but because of what they hit with.
Acid explosion.
They have the same destructive strength as rail guns.

Yes but a tyranid can lose three limbs and not care.

It can jump 15 feet and reacts faster than anything not designed to fight.

It has more armour than average forces as well. They don't lose limbs to fist sized rocket propelled adamantine (Super metal) tipped fist sized explosive rounds.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-06 05:56:04 +0000 UTC]

Acid isn't going to hurt the shield, it'll just force the shield to stay 'active'. And the explosion isn't going to do a whole lot either. The shields would hold out for many shots, and then regenerate before any more could attack the actual hull of the ship. This is also assuming there are no plasma torpedoes to intercept the incoming projectile.
If they only have the same destructive strength as a rail gun, it would take a huge payload, much larger than 1000 tons to even have a hope of hitting anything but the shield.

That's good... except that it takes to arms to use the Venom Cannon effectively and the Covenant have melee weapons that beat the Bone Sword and Lash Whip.

What does jump height matter? Both Elites and Brutes were designed to fight, they can react at speeds comparable to a spartan which means they are easily capable of countering anything the average warrior can do. Plus they are in command of ten grunts that will fire nonstop and jackal's who use weapons that are 1-hit kills once they blow up.

Uh... good for them? The Covenant's explosive weapons (if that's what you're trying to compare it to) don't just blow up, the superheat whatever they hit. If an unshielded target is getting hit with a Concussion Rifle, for example, the liquids in its body are going to evaporate, the skin will burn away, and then it will blow up. Super metal has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-06 21:11:52 +0000 UTC]

Warriors are faster and stronger than space marines, the equivalent to Spartans.

Elites and brutes were not designed to fight. they are merely aliens.

1-hit kills? Unless its an explosive anti tank weapon that's a nope.

Venom cannons are used against infantry and tanks not ships although they could be.

And acid is like any other form of kinetic energy, it breaks shields.

Unless melting through ships isn't a viable option in which case covenant space weapons which use plasma to do this to each other are clearly just my imagination.

Stop arguing that Tyranids will be burned they walk around in space with no suits on.
With a slight evolution they aren't even burned by being exposed to direct radiation from stars.
HEAT DOES NOT BOTHER THEM. They evolve and it becomes meaningless.

It is not an advantage. The elites and brutes are not an advantage.
The weapons are on par with each other. Their armour is on Par.
The Tyranids have psychic powers the covenant do not.
They both have plasma.
They both have swarms.
They Both have Heavy support.
The Tyranids have more varying and more specific units that evolve to suit the combat.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-07 00:11:44 +0000 UTC]

"Warriors are faster and stronger than space marines, the equivalent to Spartans."

Do you have any links to pages that say how strong Space Marines are? I couldn't find one. But all that aside, you are saying the Space Marines and Spartans are equal in terms of reaction time and I recognized a mistake I made, the 20 milliseconds reaction time was measured after they got their Spartan augmentations done and without armor. Elites/Brutes are roughly equals to Spartans in reaction time in the midst of combat, years after they got their augmentations (have trained with their new skills) and in the armor, which means Elites/Brutes reaction time is probably a great deal >20 milliseconds.

"Elites and brutes were not designed to fight. they are merely aliens."

Uh... No. They are designed to fight. Should I go with the 'both are races that have evolved on harsh planets an have still become the alpha predator' or 'both races are warriors who put battle above all else and they have grown and evolved this way for millions of years'? I think both arguments would lead to the conclusion that they are, in fact, designed to fight.

"1-hit kills? Unless its an explosive anti tank weapon that's a nope."

I didn't mean in this fight. In this the needler would be much more useful to dislocate joint, maybe blow off an arm.

"Venom cannons are used against infantry and tanks not ships although they could be."

Then... then why'd you mention it when we're talking ship-to-ship warfare? That's generally confusing to me.

"And acid is like any other form of kinetic energy, it breaks shields."

That's debatable. Especially considering the shields are energized particles and not a single structure.

"Unless melting through ships isn't a viable option in which case covenant space weapons which use plasma to do this to each other are clearly just my imagination."

Most ship-to-ship weapons are lasers, the few that aren't deal kinetic damage on top of the superheated plasma. But comparing plasma to acid is stupid, acid isn't hot nor does it burn through things (it dissolves that which it comes into contact with).

Radiation isn't heat... its radiation, they are two different things.
Regular animals on earth can evolve to the point where the cold doesn't bother them, polar bears for examples, THEY CAN STILL FREEZE THOUGH.
Plasma will BURN through the Tyranids. And then, when they evolve to where Plasma becomes negligible the Spiker, Needler, Mauler, Particle Beam rifle, Focus Rifle, Needle Rifle, Covenant Carbine, Brute Shot, and the Fuel Rod Cannon will all still work perfectly.

Yes, the Elites and Brutes are.
Covenant has better weapons.
Covenant has better armor.
Covenant has better plasma.
Covenant has better heavy support.

The Covenant Wins.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-07 17:12:27 +0000 UTC]

There is a difference in being design to fight over the couse of billions of years and evolving on a harsh planet. They Tyranids almost certainly ate whatever planet and galaxy they came from.
Brutes and elites evolved... they were not designed to kill. ALL tyranids are designed by the hive mind to kill.

Tyranid acid is hot, but you didn't know that so it's fine.
It also pushes all particles it comes in contact with away from similar particles. Dissembling things it meets.
The crystals it arrives with in the case of a venom cannon are destructive on a kinetic level. And the Pulse of energy that in halo lore turns off vehicles and shields is a problem.

Radiation from direct exposure to a star... is bad.
Like a microwave.
And there is a difference between being resistant to cold and being nigh immune.
A polar bear evolved to cold. A tyranid is designed to resist it.

Covenant weapons according to their own lore induce the same damage as tau weapons or less.
Not better.

Covenant armour breaks frighteningly easily their shields being their only advantage and that just pushes them to par.

you can't compare the plasma as we've already discussed so we must assume that plasma is plasma and that they are the same.

the covenant have nothing equivalent to warhammer heavy support except the scarab.

Which gets killed far more easily than I previously thought.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-07 17:44:28 +0000 UTC]

"There is a difference in being design to fight over the couse of billions of years and evolving on a harsh planet. They Tyranids almost certainly ate whatever planet and galaxy they came from.
Brutes and elites evolved... they were not designed to kill. ALL tyranids are designed by the hive mind to kill."

Because they evolved in a harsh envirnment they were not designed to kill. So, like, because the Tyranids evolve in the harsh environments they make (which includes wars), they were not designed to kill... it just kinda happened.

"Tyranid acid is hot, but you didn't know that so it's fine.
It also pushes all particles it comes in contact with away from similar particles. Dissembling things it meets."

The Venom Cannon doesn't use acid, its 'highly corrosive poison'. And it still wouldn't effect the shield because the shield, as I already said, isn't a single thing, it's already free floating particles that are energized.

"The crystals it arrives with in the case of a venom cannon are destructive on a kinetic level. And the Pulse of energy that in halo lore turns off vehicles and shields is a problem."

I am aware. I believe I said the crystal would have to be enormous to do any real damage to the shield. And I don't get that second sentence.

"Radiation from direct exposure to a star... is bad. Like a microwave"

Obviously. But they are not standing on the star, they are just floating past it. Now, fuck me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Covenant weapons melt through space ships? Yes, they do. So... what point are you making again?

"And there is a difference between being resistant to cold and being nigh immune."

You just said they were resistant to heat and now they're nigh immune... I am beginning to be annoyed by this stupid switching of words you do.

"Covenant weapons according to their own lore induce the same damage as tau weapons or less.
Not better."

The Covenant recognized a race of aliens in another game and compared their weapons? I think not.
And, as I've said before, unless you know the exact composition of the plasma the Covenant use and the Tau weapons, you can't say they are worse, unless of course you can prove it. Then, prove it.

"Covenant armour breaks frighteningly easily their shields being their only advantage and that just pushes them to par."

The Tyranid's carapaces will melt within 20 shots of a single weapon. The shields pushes the Covenant's armor to advantageous.

"you can't compare the plasma as we've already discussed so we must assume that plasma is plasma and that they are the same."

Uh, no, we don't have to do that at all actually. It's more likely they are different, as they come from to entirely different universes. You must prove they are the same.

"the covenant have nothing equivalent to warhammer heavy support except the scarab.

Which gets killed far more easily than I previously thought."

Are we comparing the Covenant to all of Warhammer or just the Tyranids? Because, if we are comparing it to all of Warhammer, the Tyranids have nothing that comes close to the world-forging power of the Forerunners.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-07 19:46:30 +0000 UTC]

Oh and I forgot to mention that Tyranids eat planets. Make all the planets you want we'll eat them

There are at least 3 races in warhammer that create planets and deathstars and so on but we're not talking about them right now.

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-07 19:43:32 +0000 UTC]

Gotta separate things, Tyranid infantry survive direct radiation from a star like on a planet with no atmosphere.

You know when you fully charge a plasma pistol and fire it a wraith, it stops the wraith. The wraith literally shuts down. I've already said this is where the venom cannon is used not against space ships.

In space the Tyranid ships are so big they don't need weapons, they literally physically grab onto and eat enemy ships.
Any ships they lose they reeat even if they've been reduced to gas. The tyranid ships are so big that killing them with the Covenant weapons would be like trying to glass multiple planets. This would take hours to kill one. This is accurate to both these factions lore.

Since our only comparison between the plasma is that it takes time for covenant plasma to fry through stuff and warhammer plasma flash burns whatever it meets I then must assume that warhammer plasma is stronger. Since we can't say they are on par and the lore from halo has it not killing people in one hit. Warhammer plasma turns what it encounters to gas not liquid. 

Also the plasma as described by the halo wiki seems to be regular plasma which is high energized ions.

"Are we comparing the Covenant to all of Warhammer or just the Tyranids? Because, if we are comparing it to all of Warhammer, the Tyranids have nothing that comes close to the world-forging power of the Forerunners."

Not comparing to all of warhammer because that would be even more unfair.

But what I meant was I was surprised to find what kills the scarabs is actually really weak for the nids.
No shields and standard super heavy plating. A warp lance would punch a hole in it because it has no defense against it. For your information a warp lance is what a Zoanthrope fires.

The Tyranid hive mind looks at what an enemy has, then designs The race to fight that threat, this is not the same as changing to suit an environment which individual Tyranids do without the hive mind. This is looking at an enemy seeing what beats it and becoming that.

"The Covenant recognized a race of aliens in another game and compared their weapons? I think not.
And, as I've said before, unless you know the exact composition of the plasma the Covenant use and the Tau weapons, you can't say they are worse, unless of course you can prove it. Then, prove it."

The Plasma Rifle is a Covenant, directed-energy weapon, reverse engineered from forerunner technology that uses a superheated ionized gas called Plasma , instead of projectile ammunition. The weapon has a power output of 100-150 KV @ 2~3 dA, and can fire 360 to 540 rounds per minute.

PULSE  WEAPONS
Pulse technology  is  common within  the  Fire caste,  and all  pulse weapons utilize pulsed induction  fields to propel lethal bursts of plasma over astonishing ranges. 
The Pulse Rifle works by electromagnetically accelerating a plasma shell down its barrel. In effect, it is a miniature mass accelerator.


Neat fact for you the unsc uses mass drivers firing slugs of metal to destroy covenant ships. Mass drivers firing plasma are an exactly average weapon in warhammer.

Tyranids acid spray is stronger and better at piercing armour. Heck a strangle thorn cannon deals more damage in a huge area.

20 shots to kill a tyranid... thats a lot of shots. I think it would take 20 shots to kill a big tyranid yes but a gaunt would die in about 3 shots. Big big tyranids will require anti tank weapons and so on and so forth.


(If you want Using covenant plasma as if it is regular plasma which according to halo lore it is. I can probably convert halo units and weapons to warhammer stats.
I did a little bit with the plasma rifle on an elite.

Elite
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 8 Sv +3 Type (Infantry)

Plasma Rifle Str 5 Ap 4 Assault 2
Energy Sword Str +1 Ap 3

)


I made that using strength of what the elites do in their games and according to their lore. And approximately how they react to equivalent situations.

EX. An elite is hit with a rail gun > It dies       An elite is hit with a flying bus > It may live if it dodges                An elite is punched by a spartan > it can take two of those

By displaying situations you can see how tough these creatures actually are in comparison

EX. A warrior is hit with a rail gun > It dies     A warrior is hit by a flying bus  > It lives       A warrior is punched by a space marin  >  It can take two of those

I going to be building a list of situations for each teams creatures and units to see how tough covenant are by warhammer standards.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-07 23:44:30 +0000 UTC]

"Gotta separate things, Tyranid infantry survive direct radiation from a star like on a planet with no atmosphere."

That is resistant, not immune. First off, the heat from a star to a planet is spread out, meaning its not as direct as the heat of a Plasma bolt, and is effected by things like distance and cover. Even if Tyranids could walk on the surface of the sun, it would only take three plasma bolts from the plasma rifle to penetrate that Tyranid's carapace (going off the 3000 F you gave me).

"You know when you fully charge a plasma pistol and fire it a wraith, it stops the wraith. The wraith literally shuts down. I've already said this is where the venom cannon is used not against space ships."

First off, you said the shields of a Supercarrier could be disabled by a railgun, than you said that Venom Cannons equate to railguns. That implies Venom Cannons would be used against the ship. Second, and this is from the Warhammer 40K Lexicanum, 'also releases a residue of the electrostatic firing charge upon collison in a lethal blast of electrical energy' that does not equate to an EMP.

"Covenant weapons would be like trying to glass multiple planets. This would take hours to kill one. This is accurate to both these factions lore."

Uh, no. Tyranid ships are large, yes, but they are not planet-size, and their 'Stone-like armor plating' (from the Lexicanum) would melt to any of the Covenant's weapons, all of which melt through metal that is much thicker and more durable than stone. A Tyranid ship's carapace, after being hit by a laser turret will turn to lechatelierite, which is like glass (hence the name), all the liquid beneath that spot will instantly evaporate. It's like nuking the impact site, any subsequent shots would obliterate the area first hit and borrow into the ship. Keep in mind this is using Plasma Turrets, of which any Supercarrier and Assault Carrier use thousands of. Add onto that the actual energy projectors which they use to blow through mantles of planets.

"Since our only comparison between the plasma is that it takes time for covenant plasma to fry through stuff and warhammer plasma flash burns whatever it meets I then must assume that warhammer plasma is stronger. Since we can't say they are on par and the lore from halo has it not killing people in one hit. Warhammer plasma turns what it encounters to gas not liquid. 

Also the plasma as described by the halo wiki seems to be regular plasma which is high energized ions."

That comparison is still assuming that the armor in halo is the exact same as the armor in Warhammer, which it undoubtedly isn't. Oh, and "Generally, two hits from either a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Rifle will kill a light or non-armored target", remove the shot to get passed the armor and it kills in hit. Halo plasma turns whatever it hits into gas, which is a far more dangerous change than to liquid.
Also, the type of gas that is ionized is never specified in halo. That could have different effects on the plasma.

"No shields and standard super heavy plating. A warp lance would punch a hole in it because it has no defense against it. For your information a warp lance is what a Zoanthrope fires."

Yes... except the Scarab's weapons have a range of far more than the Warp Lance and so can stay far away from it and still make an effective kill shot.

Comparing Plasma Rifles to Pulse Weapons: That's equating a bb gun to a AK-47 because they both fire blanks. Does the Plasma Rifle fire via electromagnetically accelerating a plasma shell down its barrel? No, that and we still don't know what type of plasma that's being used by the Covenant.

"Tyranids acid spray is stronger and better at piercing armour."

Again, it's not acid. Its corrosive poison. And it being better than armor piercing rounds isn't a debate I want to have.

"20 shots to kill a tyranid... thats a lot of shots. I think it would take 20 shots to kill a big tyranid yes but a gaunt would die in about 3 shots. Big big tyranids will require anti tank weapons and so on and so forth."

20 shots to kill a warrior, I have come to view Warriors like Elites and they are kinda the first thing I think of when I read/type 'tyranid'. A Gaunt would be down in about 3, I can agree with that. Big Big Tyranids would go down with a few Fuel Rod Gun shells, which are 'light anti-armor' weapons. I don't really know what any of the stuff below this point is supposed to mean (I don't play tabletop games, and so things like the meaning of "WS" of "BS" are unknown to me.)

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VaruulOmegon In reply to rakaru [2014-05-08 02:03:14 +0000 UTC]

"First off, you said the shields of a Supercarrier could be disabled by a railgun, than you said that Venom Cannons equate to railguns. That implies Venom Cannons would be used against the ship. Second, and this is from the Warhammer 40K Lexicanum, 'also releases a residue of the electrostatic firing charge upon collison in a lethal blast of electrical energy' that does not equate to an EMP."

It is though, emp is electric magnetic pulse. And electric charge being released is an electric magnetic charge. This is a basic principle of esd or electric static discharge. And if it wasn't why would they mention it at all in the first place.
There are also rupture and impaler cannons.

"Uh, no. Tyranid ships are large, yes, but they are not planet-size, and their 'Stone-like armor plating' (from the Lexicanum) would melt to any of the Covenant's weapons, all of which melt through metal that is much thicker and more durable than stone. A Tyranid ship's carapace, after being hit by a laser turret will turn to lechatelierite, which is like glass (hence the name), all the liquid beneath that spot will instantly evaporate. It's like nuking the impact site, any subsequent shots would obliterate the area first hit and borrow into the ship. Keep in mind this is using Plasma Turrets, of which any Supercarrier and Assault Carrier use thousands of. Add onto that the actual energy projectors which they use to blow through mantles of planets."

Yes they are that big because as we have needed to repeat 5 time now they eat planets. a tyranid ship goes up to a planet and sucks up it's atmosphere then it's oceans then it's minerals.
They eat the planet, they attach with giant testicles and suck it up.


"That comparison is still assuming that the armor in halo is the exact same as the armor in Warhammer, which it undoubtedly isn't. Oh, and "Generally, two hits from either a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Rifle will kill a light or non-armored target", remove the shot to get passed the armor and it kills in hit. Halo plasma turns whatever it hits into gas, which is a far more dangerous change than to liquid.
Also, the type of gas that is ionized is never specified in halo. That could have different effects on the plasma."

True but we have things we can use to compare that are in both universes. 
Humans in flack armour which are in both universes.

Directly to chest a plasma rifle takes 3 shots to go through a unsc odst trooper.
Direct to chest a tau Pulse rifle goes through in 2 shots to go through a storm trooper.
Tyranid Bioplasma goes through 5 feet of concrete and then the guardsman and then strikes a tank to detonate. Keeping in mind Tyranid bio-plasma is fired in a gob of far greater size.

The storm trooper and odst are of equal size and weight and wearing very similar flack armour.
This is the closest comparison I can find if you've got a better one please show.



"Again, it's not acid. Its corrosive poison. And it being better than armor piercing rounds isn't a debate I want to have."

I'm not talking about the venom cannon here I'm literally talking about the acid spray attack that several tyranid units use like a flame thrower.
Sorry to confuse you.


We need to try and find things common to both universes to use to compare.



One the topic of zoanthropes they usually arrive by deep strike which means they are fired from space and land next to an oponent.
And then the covenant still have no defense against other psychic powers and no way to counter psychic defenses.
This is a big disadvantage as every tyranid leader (Hive tyrands) have powers.

Again trying to be as scientifically accurate as possible but this debate is difficult since the halo verse and the tyranid lore don't display exact stats.
Which is annoying but unavoidable.

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rakaru In reply to VaruulOmegon [2014-05-08 03:05:49 +0000 UTC]

"It is though, emp is electric magnetic pulse. And electric charge being released is an electric magnetic charge. This is a basic principle of esd or electric static discharge. And if it wasn't why would they mention it at all in the first place.
There are also rupture and impaler cannons."

It isn't an electromagnetic charge, its an electrostatic charge. The best I can tell electrostatic is half of the force needed to make an electromagnetic pulse, the other being magnetism. This leads me to think its just like an electrical bomb (i.e. blows up and results in shock damage).
From what I can tell, the Impaler would be an effective weapon against most of the Covenant forces, even the Elites and Brutes would have to be wary of them. The Rupture cannon would be effective too, unless the first 'cannonball' missed, then it would be pretty useless.

"Yes they are that big because as we have needed to repeat 5 time now they eat planets. a tyranid ship goes up to a planet and sucks up it's atmosphere then it's oceans then it's minerals.
They eat the planet, they attach with giant testicles and suck it up."

That doesn't make them as big as a planet. People eat cows, are they as big as cows? And, as you have said, they suck it up, they don't open their mouth and take chunks out of the planet, which implies they are smaller than the planet.

"True but we have things we can use to compare that are in both universes. 
Humans in flack armour which are in both universes.
Directly to chest a plasma rifle takes 3 shots to go through a unsc odst trooper.
Direct to chest a tau Pulse rifle goes through in 2 shots to go through a storm trooper."

ODST's BDU is tougher than the carapace armor that Storm Trooper's use. Proof for this exists with the soul fact that their armor is a composite of Titanium and ceramics, that's a composite of titanium, the metal they use for their ships, and ceramics, the stuff that is absorbed into Space Marine's skeletons. You know better than me the force/heat a Space Marine's bone can take before breaking mixed in with some titanium, and the Plasma Rifle breaks through it in 3 shots.

"Tyranid Bioplasma goes through 5 feet of concrete and then the guardsman and then strikes a tank to detonate. Keeping in mind Tyranid bio-plasma is fired in a gob of far greater size."

I don't know anything that's really shot in gobs without exploding on first contact, the fuel Rod Cannon explodes on the first thing it hits, but it will explode in such a manner that it would destroy the 5" concrete wall and kill the guard, then another one would be shot to destroy the tank.

"I'm not talking about the venom cannon here I'm literally talking about the acid spray attack that several tyranid units use like a flame thrower.
Sorry to confuse you."

The mistake was mine, and that does make more sense. But, some acids are flammable, so opening a Tyranid opening its mouth, which would get a lot of fire from weapons anyway, and then spewing out something that will catch on fire and becoming a literal flamethrower is probably going to hurt that Tyranid (especially if the flames go down the gullet and find the main supple of acid.)

"One the topic of zoanthropes they usually arrive by deep strike which means they are fired from space and land next to an opponent.
And then the covenant still have no defense against other psychic powers and no way to counter psychic defenses.
This is a big disadvantage as every tyranid leader (Hive tyrands) have powers."

When they arrive are they ready to go? because if a Zoanthrope falls out of the sky (somehow manages not to get hit with the AA gun) and lands right next to the Scarab, unless the Tyranid is able to fire off a Warp Lance before even getting up, its going to find itself covered in superheated, exploding plasma.
I agree, the lack of psychic attacks/defenses will make it difficult for close quarters fights, but as long as the Covenant manage to stay out of the psychic abilities range they would be good to take out a Leader.

"Again trying to be as scientifically accurate as possible but this debate is difficult since the halo verse and the tyranid lore don't display exact stats.
Which is annoying but unavoidable."

Lol, its very annoying and stupid as shit. I've been trying to scrounge up as much information as I can and its a pain in the ass.

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