SiscoCentral1915 In reply to Tamayako [2019-12-30 14:19:21 +0000 UTC]
Ah I see o3o
I knew he probably wasn't all that bad prior to the dumping
Though I feel that because of his future actions, people's views on him
are suddenly negative despite what he actually is like, so I don't think
you are misinterpreting it at all.
...
I'm glad you like my AU ;u;
This idea has been nagging at my mind for quite some time so I took a leap of faith and finally
let out my opinion about the whole Ashfur debacle that everyone collectively thinks is an asshole who
doesn't deserve to go to Starclan. I know people are going to chastise me for this, but I really do feel
that he deserves to be in Starclan. It's just that the books wrote him so terribly that that's all
they will remember him for. Ironically, the Behind Blue Eyes MAP (or at least the map parts of it)
made me open my eyes bc I realized Ashfur wasn't as bad as I thought he was.
He was just poorly written to be a villain.
Again if they had at least took the time out to make Ashfur appear more often and show his internal conflict then
we all wouldn't be so blinded by his actions that lead to his death.
omg yes, Brambleclaw really didn't have many redeeming qualities prior to his... behavior in the new books.
Squirrelflight may have been a pest who was always right, but she wasn't really THAT bad. She was just conceited.
The problems arose when the Erins thought it was a WONDERFUL IDEA to pair the two together when they clearly didn't like each other... like at all... and considering who his parents are, Brambleclaw was fated to be an asshole by default.
But because people keep obscuring how Brambleclaw is with AMVs and MAPs showing him in a positive light (Roxanne tragically being one of those MAPs even though I love the hell out of it), people became blinded and unaware of how he really was.
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Mellowix In reply to SiscoCentral1915 [2020-01-07 21:37:51 +0000 UTC]
*Slides in* This is why I always stick to the canon books, because I must admit fans projects do tend to glorify/vilify the characters - So when I end up rereading on them in the official martial, it can be surprising. So I hope you don't mind me dumping a bunch of quotes on you.
Squirrelflight really should of got herself a better mate, however Ashfur is no better then Brambleclaw even before his murder spree. He should abusive traits in the 2nd series. He may of seem pleasant at first, but unfortunately, it quite often those people don't reveal their true colours. Ashfur motive is actually realistic. There are too many cases, when break up was the sole motive for a creepy ex killing their lover or similar horrid crime.
Ashfur saving Squirrelfight once from badgers (When she didn't want it nor need it) really doesn't mean that much in the world of Warriors. Clanmates are constantly saving each other, like how Squirrelflight herself saved Brambleclaw in the sea. Ashfur has no right to memorise a 'list of the good deeds', he'd done for Squirrelflight and use it to guilt-trip her, she's not obligated to love him back.
Constantly tries to get her attention, when she's obviously doing something else: “Because I can see exactly where I stand in your life. I’m not as important to you as other cats are—as Hawkfrost is.” Brambleclaw opened his jaws to argue, but another voice interrupted him. “Hey, Squirrelflight! I’ve saved you a place over here.” It was Ashfur, signaling from a few fox-lengths away.
Overprotectiveness, when that's she plainly states she doesn't want it:
1)“The markings are really faint.” Ashfur had been over to sniff at the roots of the dead tree. “Leave her alone, Brambleclaw. Any cat could have made the same mistake.” Sandstorm gave Ashfur a look from narrowed green eyes. “Squirrelflight can answer for herself,” she mewed. “She’s not usually lost for words.” Squirrelflight blinked gratefully at Ashfur. She didn’t need him or any cat to spring to her defense, but it was good of himto support her. “I’m sorry. I really didn’t notice.” [...] “She will be.” Ashfur sprang to Squirrelflight’s defense again, unaware of the furious look she gave him this time.
2) She heard Ashfur’s voice calling weakly, “Squirrelflight, run!” But the fox wouldn’t let go. Angry and terrified, Squirrelflight fought harder.
3)" Ashfur had thrown himself between her and the badger. “I can take care of myself!” she hissed, but Ashfur had already leapt forward, plunging his claws into the attacker’s pelt while he fastened his teeth into its ear."
Refusal to listen: (She'd obviously trying to do this for awhile. Her answer couldn't be more clear, but Ashfur still goes on) “Look, Ashfur.” Squirrelflight’s voice told Brambleclaw that she was trying hard to hold her temper. “I really care about you as a friend, but I don’t want any more than that.” “But I love you!” Ashfur protested.
Signs of aggression: “I don’t know how you can say that!” There was the hint of a snarl in Ashfur’s voice."
Guilt tripping and Gaslighting: (Even disrespectfully using his mother's death, to which Squirrelflight had no connection with. He's implying that someone choosing Tigerstar's kin is irrational) “You said yourself that it’s impossible to trust a cat with Brambleclaw’s heritage. He’s a great cat, I know, but he is still Tigerstar’s son.” [...] Squirrelflight shook her head, “I’ll judge Brambleclaw by his own actions,” she retorted hotly, “not by something that other cats did long before I was born.” “I’m only thinking of you, Squirrelflight,” Ashfur meowed. “I can remember Tigerstar. His paws were red with the blood of innocent cats. You know that he murdered my mother to lure a pack of dogs to our camp?"
Ingoring: "It’s Ashfur. I passed him just now, and when I said hi he stared through me as if I wasn’t there. Rainwhisker was with him,” she went on as Leafpool laid her tail comfortingly on her shoulder. “The whole Clan must be talking about me!”
“You can hardly blame Ashfur,” Leafpool told her. “He really cares for you.”
“I never meant to hurt him!” Squirrelflight’s voice, though quiet, was anguished, and her green eyes were filled with guilt. “He’s a great cat, and I thought it would work out, being with him. But Brambleclaw . . . Oh, Leafpool, do you think I’m doing the right thing?”
False accusations and public humiliation: “Well, I can!” To Leafpool’s surprise, the challenge came from Ashfur. He marched forward until he stood directly beneath the Highledge, the moonlight turning his gray pelt to silver. Instead of addressing his leader, he turned to face the Clan. “Doesn’t any cat think it’s odd that Squirrelflight is Brambleclaw’s mate, and our medicine cat is Squirrelflight’s sister? It’s very convenient that she had a sign about Brambleclaw just now, isn’t it?”.
The Erins themselves confirmed Squirrelflight was never trying to use Ashfur: VickyHolmes: I don't think Squirrelflight is just using Ashfur - she has genuine issues with Brambleclaw over his loyalty to ThunderClan (and her father Firestar, of course), and Ashfur is a kind, handsome cat who clearly thinks a lot of her. But the connection she has with Brambleclaw is very special because they went through so much together on the journey to sun-drown-place, so I don't think either of them will be able to ignore what's gone on between them in the past.
CherithBaldry: I don't think Squirrelflight would use any cat - she's too straightforward for that.
He's worse then you think:
He scapegoats his own apprentice/nephew, Birchpaw and tried framing Blackstar, risking a war with Shadowclan: “Birchpaw told me . . . Blackstar waiting on our territory . . . Had to come alone . . ." - Firestar in foxtrap, Sunset.
He injured Lionpaw/Blaze in training twice:
1) Then she noticed that her brother was bleeding, too. Ashfur’s blue eyes were blazing with fury, as if he’d forgotten this wasn’t a real battle. “They’re hurting each other!” She turned to Brackenfur. “Can’t you make them stop?”. - Outcast.
2) “I don’t want to listen to excuses.” Firestar’s voice was cold. “What I saw just now was far more vicious than a practice bout." [...] Ashfur is an experienced warrior. He should have more sense."
(It doesn't matter how "annoying" Lionpaw was, Ashfur was the grown adult. Ashfur is sane enough where he still bares responsibility for his crimes, still a functioning member of society, patrolling and training apprentices without issue. It's not his Clanmates' fault for pestering him to get therapy, he's in charge for making that first move to get help. It was so obvious to himself, considering it was literally making him
kill/hurt others. He had years to change his violent behavior, but he didn't until he already attampted murder 4 times. Ashfur should be put on trial like any regular Warriors criminal and exiled.)
Ashfur didn't regret Firestar's murder years later, he wanted was disappointed it didn't work (Him getting "Help" during the foxtrap scheme, was far more likely him sabotaging Hawkfrost's plans, so the crime goes in his favour - Tigerstar's kits are exposed/punished and Squirrelflight personally witnesses her mate killing her father) : "Who do you think sent Firestar the message to go down to the lake, where the fox trap was? I wanted him to die, to take your father away so you'd know the real meaning of pain."
He wanted to get Squirrelflight exiled: "I’ll say what I want. That lying she-cat will be driven out of ThunderClan for good, and no other Clan will want her, either.” - Long Shadows.
He couldn't care less about Thunderclan's well-being after exposing the secret at the Gathering, despite being warned 4 times about it: “Nothing scares me more than the thought that you’re not afraid of what will happen after you’ve spoken out.” Ashfur’s eyes narrowed. “I’ll purr over what will happen after I’ve revealed the truth.” [...] “Spare me the appeal to my Clan loyalty. I’ve already had Squirrelflight mewling to me about that. I told her, and I’m telling you now—there’s nothing that any cat can do to stop me.”
He gave Jayfeather a second death threat: "Are you threatening me? I could break your neck with one swipe."
He defiantly trying to kill the Three, not simply tell Squirrelflight how he felt. It wasn't mere threats, Ashfur was actively blocking their only escape as fire came closer - Hollyleaf fell over the edge: "But your kits . . .If you watch them die, then you’ll know the pain I felt.” [...] The three of them were pressed tightly together, so close that if one of them lost their balance, all three would be dragged off the cliff. [...] "Horrified, Hollyleaf took a step back and felt her hind paws begin to slip on the edge of the cliff. Her head spun as lightning stabbed out and thunder drowned all other sounds, even the roaring fire. For a heartbeat she dangled over empty air, and she let out a strangled yowl. Then she felt firm teeth meet in her scruff; blinking against the smoke, she realized that Lionblaze was hauling her back to safety."
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SiscoCentral1915 In reply to Mellowix [2020-01-08 17:39:37 +0000 UTC]
Well I did say this was an AU of sorts, so some of the things I included in my version of the story are
entirely my own. That also includes the personality and choices I gave Ashfur in the AU as well as some
altered / new scenes to make it all streamlined or consistent to what I was trying to convey.
Though this is what I get for overstepping my boundaries into something I clearly don't have any knowledge of.
But I was sick of not just getting my ideas out there in fear of angry fans attacking me or some shit when it wasn't
really necessary. I knew I would probably be wrong or unaware of certain aspects of his character, so I thank you
for not being one of those people to get unjustifiably angry...
Also thank you for showing me these quotes, I was never aware of any of these moments from the books
and it doesn't help that I don't own the books to understand what was really going on. I only felt that Ashfur
was a missed opportunity to becoming an actual villain to then redeem himself because of his overall behavior
and the crimes he has committed overall. So this is really just an outsider trying to bring their own interpretation
of the character into question. My AU also was to give him traits that would do more harm than good, even the part
about his "soft side" for Squirrelflight. I wanted to imply that he was simply too suffocating in terms of loving her as
well as be that overprotective type that doesn't let her fend for herself, but it wasn't explained at all.
This is why I can't make nutshells or short summaries...
Yeah I had a feeling the badger scene was irrelevant, but I wanted to bring it up anyway for clarification's sake
since that situation seemed kind of minuscule in comparison to the other stuff that happened.
As for Squirrelflight, I don't necessarily hate her or pin the blame on her entirely for all of this. It really just
striked me as odd how she didn't just go off and do her own thing instead of suddenly dating Ashfur who
has proved time and time again that he was pushing his boundaries a bit too far and really just wasn't being considerate
of her feelings, but neither was Brambleclaw. But regardless of what happened, his refusal to get any sort of help
caused it all to skyrocket.
Oh the annoying Lionpaw part was to have it be in Ashfur's perspective, but again I didn't explain that at all.
And you're right, Ashfur being an experienced adult warrior doesn't excuse him from him an asshole towards his
apprentice now matter how they were acting at the time.
Believe me, I wasn't trying to make Ashfur look like the good guy or turn him into being this "misunderstood
sweetheart who's a bit too violent, but otherwise good" or this "super nice guy who turned extremely sour bc dump",
but I wanted to at least have his character arc be one of "You dun goofed royally, but you have a chance to make it right."
I looked back over what I wrote and I will admit, all of this was done day 1 and without any real revision. Some
of the stuff I wrote did come across as "omg everyone is stupid for x y & z". But at the time I just felt this entire situation
could've been avoided if Squirrelflight just said fuck it and have been left alone for a while to let Brambleclaw know that she
was sick of his shit at that point. The reason why I thought she was using Ashfur to get back at Brambleclaw is because that is
also a real thing that happens in early relationships. It's typical high school drama that no one ever addresses.
In fact no one wants to address it in this context because they want to keep Squirrelflight as this good girl who did nothing wrong.
Squirrelflight really isn't a bad she-cat, but her actions post break up with Brambleclaw were very questionable regardless
if she's not the type to use people. And it was obvious she wasn't aware of the damage she dealt to Ashfur and felt terrible about it because it was obviously not her intent.
I had to use my version of Ashfur bc of my lack of knowledge of how he actually was in the books, which I know doesn't justify anything. Really if I was taking this AU more seriously, I would've invested more time into figuring out how any of this would've worked without making Ashfur look like this wrongfully accused tom who "loved too much".
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Tamayako In reply to SiscoCentral1915 [2019-12-31 01:26:32 +0000 UTC]
Sorry this comment is pretty lonnnggg heheh I ramble a lot about this series
Yeah, don't get me wrong, Ashfur is still a bad character in terms of canon, he literally tried to murder cats several times lmao but I still think him being a villain was just a sudden decision since... like I said before, he was so nice. I just recently reread some of the new prophecy to see what Ashfur really was like before Sunset and Power of Three, and yeah, he really was sweet. There was even a scene where Firestar hammered in that Ashfur is supposedly really well-adjusted and good at handling grief and loss, so having him crumble like this over something like a crush rejecting you is just... silly. I blame most of this on just poor, inconsistent writing so we could have a surprise villain.
I like to think he was left in limbo for a while before being allowed into Starclan, since we had such a long gap between his death and finally seeing him in Starclan. That way he gets some kind of comeuppance for his actions until he lets go of his hate and tries to get better, therefore landing him a place in Starclan.
Do I think he should have been Squirrel's mate? Well, no, there was an age gap, definitely a maturity gap(he was a grown warrior before she was even born) and he was very quick to coddle her all the time, which she did not like. I think being friends would have been the best option, because I think Ashfur's constant defense and Squirrel's desire to be independent would have caused them to crumble anyway, probably leading to villain Ashfur anyway. Squirrel isn't to blame for him going crazy though, obviously. I'm not one of those people who's like "if Squirrelflight stayed with him, everything would be okay" because that's just... eww. She shouldn't be responsible for his happiness, and she shouldn't feel bad for only wanting to be friends. I just think Ashfur was a genuinely good character before he was suddenly ruined by bad writing. I don't think Squirrel should have gone with Ash or Bramble, tbh.
Bramble really isn't much better. There is literally a scene where he shames her in front of a patrol, and he only lets up when the entire patrol(Ashfur, Sandstorm, Duspelt and Thornclaw) sides with Squirrelflight. In that very same scene, when Ashfur says it's not Bramble's place to order Squirrelflight around, Bramble literally comes back with "it's any cat's place," as if she's not the same rank as every fucking cat on that patrol. Bramble was not deputy yet, so really he doesn't have much of a right to treat her like she's inferior.
He takes every opportunity he can just to make her feel like shit for not trusting Hawkfrost. He took it as such a personal attack on his own image that he decided to bully her around for a book and a half, making Squirrel stress and grieve for their friendship for a whole book before the Erins decided "oh wait... they're supposed to be in love" and just suddenly made him not a dick.
Literally the entire thing started because Squirrel did not trust Hawkfrost, who was in on Mudclaw's assassination attempt on Onestar. Brambleclaw, ever the perfect darling boy, decides to take this as a personal attack, saying she only doesn't trust Hawkfrost because he's Tigerstar's son, meaning she SURELY doesn't trust Brambleclaw either. Then he bullies her around and constantly belittles her for like 90% of Twilight. Like a bitch.
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