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solar-sea In reply to Umaken [2013-03-20 16:25:56 +0000 UTC]

<держите-меня-семеро-mode ON>

But! - Madara killed people only because it's the concept of their world that a shinobi must kill people.
(I mean, in the times _before_ his defection from Konoha - afterwards we witness all his actions driven by sheer rage, and it's another story)

And! - initially (at least, from my understanding of previous chapters) he realized that killing thousands of people cannot be a way to true happiness - together with Hashirama, he KNEW it.
Meaning - he _understood_ he'd never be able to reach peace with the methods their tradition offered!

But the Senju clan begged him to differ, gaining the upper hand in battles and killing off his blood relatives, which kind of, tends to prevent a person from thinking of peace and justice.

Misery... It's not misery, it's DESPAIR (I abuse the word, I know )



And as for the E.o.M. plan - I don't see how it implies mass murder - if originally it only consisted of a genjutsu to be cast upon the world - but it was the world's choice to resist and instigate the confrontation....
So it's the matter of viewpoints, I guess.

Though I'm not the hired devil's advocate, I just wanted to remind you the plan _itself_ wasn't what it turned out to be

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Umaken In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-20 17:44:54 +0000 UTC]

The plan EoM itself has one major flow - it deprives people of their free will The goverment of one country, knwn to us, is trying to make up exactly the same to it's sitizens now.

And also I have an opinion that accepting death is a more healthy way to deal with our trauma(s) than trying to reject and fight it

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solar-sea In reply to Umaken [2013-03-20 17:56:01 +0000 UTC]

How would you know that (about the flaw of will deprivation)?
What if in Mads' scenario of EoM they wake up WITH their free will - but in the world where the initial mechanisms of interactions would be changed to the point of eliminating the whole institute of shinobi??

Man, I know where our paths diverge - I've been noticing these hints for a while now, and thinking it was just my imagination playing pranks - but now I see it as clear as a daylight - we simply approach Kishi's epic mindfuck from different aspects - you often tend to compare their universe to real world, our politics, ethics and morals, while I try to separate them, and thus am regarding all the situation differently - not because I don't understand how damn horrible these ideas would have been if applied to OUR world - but because I treat it as a fictional world, which IS different and allows certain adjustments our world must __never__ allow.

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Umaken In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-20 18:29:37 +0000 UTC]

BINGO!!!
That is really a major perception difference!!!

I'd say more - one of the main reasons I liked Naruto saga so much at the very beginning was that it felt very natural, very real to me. Actually, zombie arc was the first thing that was a big "no-no" to me.

I must confess, the worlds, which are so different from ours, - those where our morals and ethics are non-appliable, are not interesting to me. The form can be anything - in one of my favorite books (sci-fi) the society has no gender - but still the bonds between people make this book terribly importaint for me "here and now". Same with NARUTO. I cherished it because of the connections with what is important to me in my life.

I am really much into this world

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solar-sea In reply to Nivalis70 [2013-03-20 17:47:49 +0000 UTC]

Niv, thank you so much!
I've been meaning to note you anyways, by the way, for I've spent the whole previous day in the company of that amazing Madara you drew and it felt absolutely surreal, like that drawing was all that Madara has ever dreamt of - peace, friendship and the ability to protect his homeland together with the Senju, not against them!
It's like a whole new level of meanings was opened - because at your drawing he _smiles_ so genuinely! Ah, can't find enough words

I agree with you! The scene of defeat is one of my absolute favourites as well - it kind of acted like a "legend killer" making Mads more of a human than we originally thought of him (not even his childhood flashbacks possessed such power, suprisingly! )

And I also share your notion about the Uchiha's inability to win a fight! - just how ironic this actually is, them being oh so powerful with the sharingan and fire techniques - yet rendered completely defenceless when the final battle happens

The idea of sharingan as the seal is VERY plausible!
Though it makes me wonder as to who and when invented it - perhaps it truly was one of Rikudou's sons - or may be someone of his successors?
No wonder it works (as you rightfully mention) so much like a curse would work
(I wonder what motivated the whole situation to happen....)


As for Madara's plan - I think the one you mention (or rather, the resurrection part) was created due to him reconsidering his original ideas of Eternal Tsukiyomi - mainly because he knew he wouldn't be able to accomplish that on his own, and thus all that hunt for bijuu / brainwashing Obito action did take place.

Personally, I doubt he would have wanted to become Rikudou But if to get rid of the abovementioned 'curse' - then I totally agree with you here

As for Itachi's own intentions.... What can I possibly say other than I fully share your guess!!!
It's brilliant in its own sense and seeing how the mechanics of Kishi's universe work - I wouldn't be in the least surprised that Itachi saw the E.o.M. as the possible variant of ending the confrontation between the clan and the village!

Another story - it's how on earth did he learn about Mads plan?
Did Obito tell him? Or were there those the sacred readings in their shrines?

What makes me want to agree with this version of Itachi's ideas - it's that he kept working for Obito in Akatsuki, catching the bijuus and all - probably knowing that in case of success there's a chance for ALL of the Uchihas to start anew!

...Come to think of it, may be in the end the sharingan would be somehow eliminated as a kekkei genkai, thus liberating all its bearers... (I have yet to think of how, but Kishi sure knows better) - and therefore returning them their free will... Who knows but sure your ideas are nothing short of awesome Thank you so much for sharing them!

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Nivalis70 In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-21 08:30:28 +0000 UTC]

About that drawing of Madara smiling, while drawing it I was convinced that Madara was a proud war-hungry spirit, so then I found only the half of Uriah Heep's "Lady in Black" lyrics to be fitting... but I was wrong, and now I see that the whole text is perfectly fitting for Madara! you know what? I like this version the most Madara is heroic, touching. I think he symbolizes the aim of redemption of the Uchiha clan, that's the possible common point with Itachi, with the exception that Itachi wished to do it by making his clan ucknowledged by Konoha (obviously, this theory is good only if he was not the mere guard dog of Konoha like it may be considered at this time, until proven otherwise. I don't want to think of Itachi like one who once believed in something, then he made up his mind for convenience).

As for the seal, I think it could have been created long time ago, most likely by the Rikudou's elder son or soon by the first generation after him, due of the anguish of being discarded. (On a side note: thinking to Rikudou's sons, I can't help but to think to Cain and Abel). Maybe the clan Uzumaki is somehow involved in this thing, because their symbol looks the same as the eyes of the Uchiha ancestor, also they are specialized in sealing techniques.

>I wouldn't be in the least surprised that Itachi saw the E.o.M.

Er, I can't get the meaning of "E.o.M." (end of Madara? )

>Another story - it's how on earth did he learn about Mads plan?
Did Obito tell him? Or were there those the sacred readings in their shrines?

Oh, that's really a good question I too was wondering about. Maybe the "Madara" followers got many secret informations (so Itachi was among those followers), but how could they know of the foundation of the Akatsuki? (that was actually founded by Madara/Tobi by gifting Nagato of the Rinnegan). I don't think it has ever written anywhere. Also, Itachi always talks of "Madara" (right soon as he was revived by the Edo Tensei) but he never addressed that name to Tobi. In my opinion, he got more informations than everyone else... but I can't figure out how he did.

I'm glad you like these ideas! and yours are even more inspiring!

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solar-sea In reply to Nivalis70 [2013-03-21 21:57:27 +0000 UTC]

If we might apply "predicting the future" to the artwork - then it's definitely the right occasion to do just so
Because I'm absolutely fascinated, you're right, about how the WHOLE song fits Madara!!

I like this definition, "touching" - it's somehow feeling so familiar - like I've been trying to reach this very part of his character throughout the whole time from his introduction at revival - and here the efforts are finally rewarded!

Agreed, Itachi definitely had his ideas about redempting his clan in a way that would not include bloodshed, and therefore I prefer to believe he felt it was somehow possible even after committing what Konoha required him to do.
I don't see him as a character who'd easily bend his mind to what's convenient at the moment.

Plus, the Uchihas that were never resurrected with Edo Tensei... Were there reasons behind that?
Like, in theory, people that are resurrected in Edo Tensei now - won't be able to come alive AFTER the Eye of the Moon is performed - something like a terribly perverted Christian concept of the life after death - if you're resurrected BEFORE the Doom's day, you're not allowed to enter the afterlife that otherwise awaited you upon your death...

(Am I even making sense??! Cause the idea is just mind-blowing )

Again, seeing how you mention Cain & Abel - wow, too much Christianity parallels for discussing one episode from the manga, don't you think?
I smell something in this direction
May be Uzumaki really are that third part of the riddle that should bring the first two parts together, somehow?

>Er, I can't get the meaning of "E.o.M." (end of Madara?)
- Oi, I'm sorry Whilst 'end of Madara' is definitely enchanting, in a sense - I meant simply "Eye of the Moon"
Sorry for the confusion


It's really a vague issue with the ways the knowlege in narutoverse spreads - I still can't understand how Madara in his old age (and seemingly pretty unstable health) managed to capture the poor Uzumaki guy, named Nagato - and transplant his own eyes into the boy without the latter realizing anything
And acquiring a spare sharingan for his left socket afterwards. Really, how is that possible?

Though, returning back to Itachi and "Madara" - may be they DID share some secrets... Or "Madara" (real or Obito) thought no one could access them while Itachi used his mangekyo (or even Shisui's eye? ) to learn everything...


Oi Thank you
Mutual inspiration is the power to move mountains
(if we could bend the canon this easily, though )

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Nivalis70 In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-23 17:45:50 +0000 UTC]

>I don't see him as a character who'd easily bend his mind to what's convenient at the moment.


In fact, I don't understand how can people call Itachi a hero just for having executed Danzo's orders. If he truly was the killer of the clan, I don't see a hero rather a calculating individual who worked for who's paying the most. But I believe Itachi IS (was) a hero, therefore I'm still waiting for the truth (I'm obstinate you know me, by now!)


> the Uchihas that were never resurrected with Edo Tensei... Were there reasons behind that?

That's actually very strange! But I guess Kishimoto hasn't used any Uchiha but some MS users for not to make brand new characters - because the using of Fugaku and Mikoto would have had sense only if used against Sasuke... whilst the resurrected shinobis were somehow important for their Konoha opponents, I have the slight feeling that anybody from Konoha wouldn't have given a single damn for an Uchiha (guess what I would have chosen in front of Danzo )

>Like, in theory, people that are resurrected in Edo Tensei now - won't be able to come alive AFTER the Eye of the Moon is performed - something like a terribly perverted Christian concept of the life after death - if you're resurrected BEFORE the Doom's day, you're not allowed to enter the afterlife that otherwise awaited you upon your death..

I hope things won't go that way!
(on a side note, I fully agree that that concept is terribly wrong, and, in my personal opinion, is also very far from my concept of God and from Jesus'teaching. Well, people like me are called not-observant, not real believers because I refuse to take the Bible literally, but I don't care! )


> I meant simply "Eye of the Moon"
Sorry for the confusion

Oh, it was the Eye of the Moon ...I'm definitely not good for guessing acronyms!
I accidentally thought to "end of Madara" because I was still thinking how on earth Itachi could got, not only infos, but images of Madara's past, too. I mean, Itachi showed images to Sasuke, I think there must be a limit to the mental abstraction, so I wonder how could he know all that so exactly... unless he once actually met what's behind Tobi's mask, that "Madara" (hmm, maybe the night of the massacre things went different, if you ask me ).



> I still can't understand how Madara in his old age (and seemingly pretty unstable health) managed to capture the poor Uzumaki guy, named Nagato - and transplant his own eyes into the boy without the latter realizing anything
And acquiring a spare sharingan for his left socket afterwards. Really, how is that possible?

This! how could he give that power to Nagato this is very interesting, I had forgotten of this detail!


Thanks for everything, my dear

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Umaken In reply to Nivalis70 [2013-03-20 11:33:32 +0000 UTC]

I just love your ideas!!!

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Nivalis70 In reply to Umaken [2013-03-21 06:48:21 +0000 UTC]

The more I read Naruto the more I see that there aren't "evil ones", but rather "evil paths", in the story. Before reading Hashirama's childhood flashback, I thought Madara to be really war-hungry as a natural disposition, then I discover that he was actually peaceful! This has opened a different perspective, and I like it and Madara even more! (well, the plot is more and more complicated )

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Umaken In reply to Nivalis70 [2013-03-21 16:42:26 +0000 UTC]

Exactly.
But, to tell you the truth, I was hoping to see at least one REALLY EVIL character Madara was a good applicant for this role... but he is no more

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solar-sea In reply to Umaken [2013-03-21 17:41:27 +0000 UTC]

And that would be Orochimaru, because SOMEONE HAS TO


Though who am I kidding? Of course he won't be. If even Kurama proved to have had a stressful childhood...

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Umaken In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-21 17:59:52 +0000 UTC]

You know, stories of stressful childhood is my weak point :3

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solar-sea In reply to Anton-Constantin [2013-03-20 08:14:16 +0000 UTC]

There's nothing offtopic in your comment, Orochimaru can't physically be offtopic
(well, at least at my page, this little Oro-worshipping bay in the heavy sea of DA )

I agree, the last thing I'd want 'naruto' to end with is the lame death of my most favourite character
Though I'm not sure I'm mentally ready to see him turning to the good side
No, I definitely am not ready for the shock like that one - I mean, I can easily fathom Maddy's intentions...

But Oro and "good" - perhaps, it MIGHT be true, but NOT in the "good" term as it's regarded in Kishimoto's canon.
In his very own sense of understanding (or at least, I hope so )

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Anton-Constantin In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-20 16:11:44 +0000 UTC]

I agree. Orochimaru is one of my most favorite characters too.

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solar-sea In reply to IzzyMarrie [2013-03-19 21:22:31 +0000 UTC]

Hey, it's alright, no need to apologize , I really like reading your theories and ideas
Just write as many comments as you deem necessary

And thank you so much!
I admit Madara crying blood (with Izuna's eyes! ) is one of my headcanons, which I finally had the chance to depict.

In my idea, here he thinks / imagines his Mugen Tsukiyomi has finally taken place; and is therefore looking forward to his reunion with Hashirama, and how the shinobi world will be eliminated (or rather - NOT the people, but the rules that bound them so horribly )

Yet he cries, because he feels that alone (Obito is so nearing the betrayal ) he won't be able to accomplish the dream of all his life

Abusing the 'bold' format because that's where the real drama begins


(C'mon, Sauce, you're the only one who can help Maddy!
Well, I guess Oro might also want to play a part, though I feel like he'd be watching instead of participating )

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IzzyMarrie In reply to solar-sea [2013-03-20 03:48:38 +0000 UTC]

I so hope that Maddy-dear soon realizes that the times have changed and it's time for him to lay down and let his great-great-great(whatever, don't know how many greats!)ancestor Sassy-chan (err.. I mean, Sasuke. lol) to make friends with Naruko again (AHAHA!! AGAIN?! I mean, N A R U T O XD), stop corrupting Obi-sweety with all those crack-pot rantings about eyes on the moon -innermind: CRACK!? WHERE!? me:STFU!- AND that he needs to wear his big girl panties and go give Hashi-deary a big 'ol hug!

So..~ -wink-

-Mardara's Inner Mind Theatre:

TakeME!!

-reality-

First.. you must do something for me..


O-oh right...

YES YES YES!!
Be my uke?

Aww.. my little Uchiha princess wants to switch positions?

Oh god.. wow... stfu..



Wait.. niisan? You're letting him get away with calling you a princess?

.... ... Why am I not surprised...


EYES ON THE MOON! E Y E S O N T H E M O O N!~
Heya Tobi~ Ready to be a BAD boy!?
Spank me


WE'RE FIGHTING AGAINST THESE GUYS!?they're ukes...

KYAH!! YAOI!

I'M RELATED TO THAT GUY!!?

P*nis P*nis P*nis

O-obito?! WTH HAPPENED WITH RIN!?
No, wait.. this explains why I always felt watched in the shower...

No more avenger. No more avenger. Think HAPPY thoughts! I'M ADOPTED!

AND THUS ENDS THIS EPISODE OF EPIC LULZ!! XD

And what would this be without a random nice guy pose?

THIS WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE POWER OF YOUTH! (please drink responsibly)

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