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tuffix — Discuss
Published: 2011-05-07 16:22:51 +0000 UTC; Views: 7825; Favourites: 50; Downloads: 42
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I know, lame story. (blank speech bubbles are intended, because it's not the discussion topic that counts)I did this mainly to practise using screentones.
And I want to make an other colored version to see, which one I like most. It's bugging me that I still have the feeling of not having my own style. I'm jumping from one to the other -.-
The "story" -.-' is real. At high school, I had a history teacher, with whom I used to debate many times. It was really great, because it always ended like this comic.
Some people really need to learn how to discuss sensibly.
There is a quote, I really like: "The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." (Joseph Joubert)
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Comments: 78
Islam may coexist with democracy.
But it can't coexist with western values
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I'm sorry :/ Maybe you will meet some one like him on day ^^
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I'm planning for motive wall ..will put on it some quotes from Qur'an,books and such to be read daily ..
this quote is definitely in
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Democracy can coexist with religion, IF church and state remain separate from each other. Like all forms of power, Religion must be kept in check.
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Then what is any political ideology other than a power?
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True, but that's what's wonderful about ideology there tends to be more than one, and that's the best check we can ask for
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So what? You mean, that religions tend to be autocratic? Take a look at Tunisia: The Islamic party refuses to be the only one in the government/parlament.
And on the other hand: There are and were enough ideologies that didn't care about any other policial view. Any ideologies can be abused.
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No, I mean religion, like any form of power be it corporate or militarily, tends to have an unfair level of influence in most governments. This is usually because religions are well organized and operate from some form of central authority.
I'm simply saying that it is usually best if religion and government are protected from each other by a wall of separation between church and state. Put it another way, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
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So your arguments are just good organization and central authority?
Well for the first: Just take a look at the extreme right-wing of Germany. They are very well organized (especially in the underground). And I'd say, that there is a great power in their ideology, which easily influences especially young uneducated and depressed people.
And what would be "unfair" about it, if people would democratically vote for a religious party? And for the central authority: In contrast to catholic Christianity there is no such thing in Islam.
Sorry for being persistent in this question, but I don't get it...despite your nice quotation
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Ok, I was trying to be nice about it, so I'll be blunt. Power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts ultimately. Religion was used as the sole reason by almost every European Monarch during the dark ages for their right to the throne (the divine right to rule); and in the UK its technically still in place, Queen Elizabeth II is still the head of the state sponsored Church, making it technically a theocracy.
And when governments get involved in the affairs of religion, its not just the government being corrupted by zealots; the religion its influencing, or any other religions not fortunate enough to be in favor by the sitting government, would also be damaged by having the affairs of the state meddle in the affairs of faith. What if the people democratically vote to make Catholicism the State Religion in Germany, and outlaw the practice of all other faiths? Sounds pretty "unfair," to me.
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So you take the dark ages as an argument, then I'll take the dictatorships of the last century as mine: The worst genocides were arranged by Mao, Stalin, Hitler etc. Non one of them was religiously motivated. Ill nature lies in the people themselves, not in religion. In my eyes "Atheism" could practically be considered (in this case) as a religion/ a power as well.
And again: Not every religion is like Christianity, there is not always a devine right to rule.
Having a Muslim party that is involved in the government for example, doesn't mean that any other religion would be forbidden. In fact our leading party in Germany is the "Christian Democratic Union" and we are all fine with that. I'm not against democracy at all, but it's well known, that democracy simply has a paradox problem. And I guess we both will not find the solution (: So maybe it's time to agree to disagree
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I'll agree to disagree, but not without one tiny little nitpick: Hitler was endorsed by the Catholic Church, and claimed in Mein Kampf that he was doing God's will.
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Wish there were more people in the world like you and your teacher.
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I really respect this idea. One should be tolerant of others opinion. Only then can others respect his.
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Well, it's nothing huge, but thank you
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this is great. i wish my teacher is so. we muslims know more than the non-muslims think.
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Thank you!
Well yes, sometimes... and sometimes Muslims know nothing about their faith
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But what happens when two different religions enter in discussion? I have rarely witnessed any progress, only further (and increasing) discussion.
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Well, what do you define as "progress"?
Actually, I like the German version of the quote by Joseph Joubert much more, because it sounds more like this: "The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but gain."
And for me there's a small difference between "gain" and "progress".
Maybe there won't be any progress in a discussion (especially between different religions), but there will be "gain", since each party will learn new facts or new perspectives. Or maybe the gain is in the form of the realization, that both parties have things in commmon.
You know what I mean?
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Well I think all religions have a lot in common. The great ideological divide is not between Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus but between religious and non-religious people. The debate between religion and secularism, even though it hasn't brought a lot of gain or progress, brings logic to the equation.
What I meant with my question is that between two religions there is little of logic as it is mostly based on faith. Faith that a god or gods exist, faith that a certain religious book is indeed the word of that god and not something made up by other people, faith that if you behave this way or that way this god will either reward or punish you. So what I meant was, how much gain or progress can two religions gain out of a debate if all they doing is to compare faith. In the end, religion A will believe in their dogmas and religion B will believe in their dogmas. Change is not a part of that equation.
I am not being anti-religion here, just wondering what are your thoughts about this.
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I see your point. However that's why I said, for me "progress" is less important. In your last sentence you mention "change", but for me, the result of a discussion doesn't have to be change, because in most (maybe all?... very philosophical..) discussion subjects there is a lack of an absolut truth, which forces one party to admit its fault.
I think, that only a very very few discussions are based on real logic. I believe, that most people do compare their convictions within a debate, instead of weighing arguments reasonably. When my friends and I start a discussion about whether Fight Club is the better film then Wall-E, we will never reach agreement. Everyone will believe in his own assessment skills. At least, we will have learned the other's opinions and be able to plan our movie nights, that's the gain
So if religions start discussing (BTW: at least within one faith/system their should be a logic), they can finally agree to disagree, at least they have approached each other to learn how to live peacefully together...
I hope, this makes sense...
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I really LOVE this
and It's really really important point
I see a lot of people negotiating (in reality or just in forums) but unfortunately many of them lack the .. well how to call it ? 
it's so sad though , because as the statement you put says .. many people now discuss to prove that they're right not to progress
and by the end of the discussion .. sometimes they're no more nice to each other
we really should learn from your experience .. thanks for sharing it
and great drawings as always
good job dear tuffix
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That's true and very sad...
Thank you, sis!
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Oh ja, diskutieren macht Spaß. Ich diskutiere auch unheimlich gern mit Leuten, die eine andere Ansicht haben als ich, aber die einem trotzdem zuhören und auf Argumente eingehen, so wie ich es auch tu. Man lernt unheimlich viel dabei. Nicht nur über seinen Diskussionspartner, sondern auch über "die Welt"...
Dein Zeichenstil ist wirklich schön und deine Geschichten sehr sympathisch. Ich finde es super, dass du vor allem auf die zwischenmenschlichen Komponenten eingehst als auf den Islam selbst. Bei vielen anderen Comics/Bildern/Texten von Muslimen vermisse ich das und es kommt mir oft so vor, als hätten die Menschen kein anderes Leben außer Beten und den ganzen Tag über den Islam reden.
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Danke. Ich freue mich, dass dir auffällt, dass ich mich bemühe, andere Themen aufzugreifen.
Dein letzter Satz hat mich zum Schmunzeln gebracht. Ich habe schon oft mit Freunden darüber geredet. Auch sie meinten, dass mich meine Gallerie z.B. gar nicht repräsentiert und es eher aussieht, als wären meine Hobbies beten und zeichnen. Ich habe sie dann gefragt, warum meine Gallerie mich denn unbedingt repräsentieren muss. Wir haben lange geredet, weil es ziemlich kniffelig ist: Mein Ziel ist ja, dem Islam-Bild, das von den Medien entworfen wird, entgegen zu arbeiten, weil ich es als ungerecht empfinde. Deshalb habe ich (und auch viele andere) den Islam als Schwerpunkt gewählt. Gleichzeitig ist es kontraintuitiv nur über den Islam zu zeichen, weil es sehr einseitig wirkt und abschreckt. Es ist ein Hin und Her und ich versuche, irgendwie die Mitte zu finden... Ich hoffe, du verstehst, was ich meine.
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Oh, ich fand deine Galerie jetzt nicht "typisch islamisch", sondern erfrischend modern. Endlich zeigt mal jemand den Menschen hinter dem... Kopftuch/Hijab, der auch Wünsche hat und sich mit ganz alltäglichen Problemen herumzuschlagen hat.
Nayzak zum Beispiel zeigt nur hübsche, fromme Muslime ohne erkennbare eigene Persönlichkeit (in meinen Augen). Darunter schreibt er pathetische Sätze wie "Ich bin doch auch nur ein Mensch", etc. Nur leider kann sich ein Nicht-Muslim eher weniger damit identifizieren als mit einem durchnässten Hijab oder einem "Bad Hijab-Day".
Wirklich ergreifend (klingt ziemlich komisch, ist aber wahr) fand ich zum Beispiel deinen Comic mit dem Alltag, wo die Protagonistin im letzten Panel pausiert und das Gebet als Erholung sieht. Als Nicht-Moslem (und Atheist) empfinde ich Beten immer als Zeitverschwendung und gerade das islamische Gebet sieht ja körperlich recht anstrengend aus. Das war eben ein wunderbarer Kontrast zwischen dem, was ich sehe, und dem was andere im Beten sehen... Und vor allem die Tatsache, dass das Beten ein natürlicher und schöner Bestandteil des Alltags, auf den man sich freut, zu sein scheint! Ich finde so etwas irgendwie sympathisch, bewundernswert und romantisch.
Ups... So viel wollte ich nicht schreiben! Mach weiter so!
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Ich freu mich wirklich, dass du das so siehst. Vielen Dank für den netten Kommentar (:
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This is wonderful . I used to argue alot with other people for the exchange of informations and opinions as well. If we learn how to debate properly ,then we can use it in expressing ourselves in the most polite manner..
I like the quote by the way 
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Thank you, I'm very glad that you like it and that you call it "enlightning" (:
Actually it's finished -.-
That's why I said, that the story is lame. In fact, the story was secondary, I just wanted to practise.
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Really,its finished...i want to read it
I'm sure the story will be good. After all ,I always love your islamic works.
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haha, no no, it's not going to be longer than this. This was the whole story
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Nice
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I think neither side reaching the same conclusion is the point of democracy.
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Nice story ! I would like all situations being like this one...^^
By the way... Wasn't the girl drawing just before ?
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hehe
My fellow pupils always thought, that I was so studiously writing down, what the teacher was saying, instead I was drawing
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