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TurnerMohan — Haleth and guardswomen
Published: 2014-05-18 09:08:51 +0000 UTC; Views: 31759; Favourites: 441; Downloads: 208
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Haleth and two of her amazonian warriors, part of this ridiculously huge "Middle-earth historic costume" picturebook i'm currently planning to do.one of the more striking mental images offered up by tolkien's writings of the first age (a slot for which there are MANY contenders) is Haleth's all-female bodyguard. Haleth herself, a fierce warrior and human cheiftainess of the very celtic second wave of men to come into the West, is an almost insecapably Boudicca-esqu character and middle-earth's earliest (and greatest) female-empowerment figure; taking up the leadership of her father's people after his death, fighting off the forces of Angband and even winning the respect and gratitude of the imperious Caranthir (no easy feat) only to turn down his offer of lasting alliance and strike out farther west to establish settlements for her people in Brethil. Adding to her image and reputation as this great warrior-queen, she surrounded herself with a guard of trained women fighters. She is remarked to have never married or had children (the line reverting to her brother's son after her death) and I like to imagine that, like the also childless, real-life "virgin queen" Elizabeth I with all her ladies in waiting, Haleth's guardswomen would be almost like adopted daughters to her; young women of the haladin having come from rough family lives, or perhaps widows of war with little support, taken in by their matriarchal chief and taught how to fight and fend for themselves, not dependent upon men (perhaps this spilled over and became a quality of the Haladin women long after Haleth's time) and they in turn would love their leader and "mother" and be prepared to fight to the death for her.
I picture Haleth here as being in her mature years, following the move to Brethil; she's getting old - her once great, bursting mane of red hair (atleast as i envision her) wilting and going grey - but still a force to be reckoned with (like so many male leaders in tolkien's world). Her people are remarked to have fought mainly with spears and axes (which also makes sense, mankind being in it's infancy at the time, and those weapons being more common in very ancient times than swords) the sword at her side I imagine is perhaps of elven make, a gift from Carathir (and therefore a surpassingly fine piece of work, being forged by noldor smiths, and feanorians no less) given in recognition of her bravery and to further sell his offer for her and her people to settle in his land. it would seem just like Haleth to take such a gift, considering the losses her people endured more than worthy of such a free-given present, and then refusing his offer to stay . perhaps it was passed on through her nephew's line down to Brandir, if it was not simply buried with her in Haud-en-arwen.
It was a matter of some debate for me what the garments of the edain should look like at this time. like probably almost everyone my mind went first to those classic, alan lee-inspired dark-age tunics such, and while i definitely ended up incorporating a lot of classic bronze and iron-age celtic-wear, thinking about it I realized that the human race is only supposed to be about two hundred years old at this point, and despite my dislike for the all-too-common caveman look of draped animal hides and bone necklaces seen in fantasy depictions of "primitives" (like conan or the wildlings from game of thrones, depictions which seem to severely underestimate just how far back in our history textiles go) something like that seemed appropriate for the first crop of men to enter beleriand: only a handful of generations into the world, speaking in borrowed fragments of Avarin and Khuzdul, they really are (as mogorth condescendingly but not inaccurately thinks them) the lowest of the hominid beings. It's actually something i really love about tolkien's portrayal of men in the silmarillion, how they seem so young and in such a place of humility alongside the already ancient elves and dwarves; a rough, primitive people who don't expect much from life except to struggle and eventually grow old and die, but it's a struggle they're built for, and they have this great, ever-seeking fieriness in their hearts. stylistically I see them as just taking the first steps into loom-spun wool; inspired by their interactions with the elves and probably taking over even within the course of haleth's lifetime. In all aspects the men are brought up drastically by their interaction with the eldar (perhaps too drastically for their own good, as wise old Sador speculates)
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Now that look exactly how one picture Edain to look during 1st age,
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"In all aspects the men are brought up drastically by their interaction with the eldar (perhaps too drastically for their own good, as wise old Sador speculates)" Well, by their interaction with the Avari, to be precise. That's some of what little is known about their clan of elves.
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i'm pretty sure in the line i make mention of sador is referring mainly to the elves of beleriand, the noldor and sindar. the men of the three houses of the edain at that time don't seem to have put much stock in their time before coming to the west.
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Well, their knowledge wasn't great at least in that point. They had heard of the West, but once they met Finrod they thought that they had arrived to the West, and mistook him as one of the Valar.
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I beyond adored Haleth when I read The Silmarrilion for the first time, and I think she doesn't get near enough credit. This is a wonderful depiction and tribute to a truly marvelous character. I understand that Tolkein was drawing on source materials that didn't necessarily lend itself to much of the sort, but I do wish that he had populated his world with more strong female characters like this. Anyways. I am in awe of you careful attention to detail, and how much you've evidently researched to produce just the right look for your drawings; it's so refreshing to see fanart on this level.
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I always loved Haleth as well, she's one of those character sketches offered by the silmarillion that, while only mentioned in passing, jumps off the page at you. And yeah, she's a pretty great strongfemalecharacter; I've always thought that, for a stuffy old englishman with what would probably be considered some very conservative opinions about gender relations by today's standards, Tolkien had a surprising female-empowerment streak, atleast in his writing, and unlike eowyn, luthien or idril (who are all pretty badass in their own right) Haleth seems more self possessed, it's never about a man with her, which i think is very refreshing. glad you think my drawing did her justice
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I always felt that that there was quiet but firm note of resigned disapproval in Tolkien's description of Haleth's leadership, for all her acknowledged valor (unfortunately, I'm away from home at the moment and cannot check my books to be certain of my recollections).
Also, as an English Catholic, I can't imagine that the man would look too fondly on anyone comparable to Elizabeth Tudor.
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No you're right, and I've heard from others some (frankly, kind of depressingly convincing) evidence that in tolkien's world, people suffer under female rulers. he may have had some problem with the idea, based on opinions about the place of soveriegns or some other antiquated bullshit; it's in places like that that tolkien shows his era, and is not always easy to relate to, for me anyway, but at the same time it would be frustrating in different ways if Haleth was simply made perfect (and her role vastly expanded) as part of a purposeful female empowerment PR campaign, ala Brienne of Tarth from GOT
somehow the fact that even Haleth's chronicler himself has subtle, chauvinistic-feeling criticisms of her makes her seem more like a real life historical female ruler (god knows every real female ruler has had to deal with no shortage of that)
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No you're right, and I've heard from others some (frankly, kind of depressingly convincing) evidence that in tolkien's world, people suffer under female rulers. he may have had some problem with the idea, based on opinions about the place of soveriegns or some other antiquated bullshit; it's in places like that that tolkien shows his era
The above is a good example of what Tolkien's old friend C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery"; the fallacy that new ideas are inherently superior and old ideas inherently inferior, simply by virtue of their temporal proximity or distance to the person citing them. By this logic, I might as well say that you're wrong because you posted your thoughts this morning and I am in turn responding in the evening.
Anyway, seeking "female empowerment" in Tolkien amounts to a lot of work for questionable returns, like independent-minded Aredthel, whose wilfulness ultimately allows Morgoth to destroy the last great free city of the elves in Beleriand. Certainly, Galadriel, Idril, Luthien, Melian, Andreth and so on and so forth are powerful, influential characters, but not so much in the manner that the current zeitgeist is wont to celebrate. Best just to enjoy Tolkien on his own terms, or, if the empowerment thing is more to one's taste, to pick from among the million and one other fantasy authors already willing and eager to cater to it.
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I think you're confusing me finding tolkien "not always easy to relate to" with me thinking he's the enemy of all things good that must be demolished in order for all to be set right in the world of fantasy fiction.
As for CS Lewis, I'm not a particularly big fan and never have been, but I would hope that my status as a Tolkien fan is pretty well unimpeachable (when was the last time you spent a couple thousand hours drawing his world, btw?)
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I think you're confusing me finding tolkien "not always easy to relate to" with me thinking he's the enemy of all things good that must be demolished in order for all to be set right in the world of fantasy fiction
Actually I think you might be confusing the intent of my response, which was not to call into question your previous statements about Tolkien himself so much as the "antiquated bullshit", as you called it, which, given its staying power over the millenia and continuing currency in the present outside of the western world, demands less contemptuous, arbitrary dismissal and more thoughtful contemplation.
As for CS Lewis, I'm not a particularly big fan and never have been
I have my reservations, but then, I'm a Roman Catholic. 
However, that said, I certainly can't fault his logic in identifying that particular fallacy.
I would hope that my status as a Tolkien fan is pretty well unimpeachable (when was the last time you spent a couple thousand hours drawing his world, btw?
Pfft, I would sooner destroy a stained-glass window than an artist such as yourself...
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take a moment to consider exactly what it is i'm calling "antiquated bullshit," since the term seems to have offended you. I'm a frequent apologist for ancient and long standing but currently out of fashion ways of thinking (I think in some ways that comes with the territory of being the kind of person who enjoys Tolkien's work) but as far as I can tell, belief in the religious or metaphysical importance of rulers (or that they must be men) is one of those things that most definitely qualifies as "antiquated bullshit." it was regressive thinking even in Tolkien's time, and while CS Lewis might not have held "regressive thinking" as a thing to be dismissed, he was often logically disappointing (see his famous "trilemma")
you don't need to quote my response for me, i know what i said, and can can scroll up to read it if i forget.
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So you found yourself a catholic-bigot to play with ?
Among French Tolkiendili they are not that common (given that a bunch of us are, likle myself, atheist or at least agnostics). The simple fact that Tolkien, openly taking the opposite way to Lewis on that subject, choose not to make his romance a guide for wanna-be christians or misguided people susceptible to return to the true truth makes every person trying to make Tolkien look like an evangelist suspect to me (I could say "us" if I look at how the guys on Tolkiendil handled the last man who tried to do so...).
Tolkien was definitely a catholic and mysoginist bigot but he didn't try to make his readers think the same way as he did and I really respect and admire that. The Lord of the Rings is not about religion, politics, family, etc. it is about power, humanity, friendship and (most important) aesthetic. It's not only art for art but it also is.
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I dunno, re-reading this whole chain, this guy's okay, he just shares some opinions with professor tolkien that I guess i don't (plus I'm not really a Lewis fan at all, and any idealogical meeting ground between tolkien and lewis is where i tend to tune out) but then i consider my self a humanist, more or less - which i suppose is what sparks my interest in alot of tolkien's looked-down-upon peoples; the haladin, the people of the south and east, even the orcs - and typically where i run into problems with tolkien is just how religiously hard-nosed he is about good and evil and where people fall on the scale (religion being often a decidedly divisive, value-assigning, non-humanist perspective, in my opinion) that is however definitely where he was coming from, and if enjoying the work he's given us means having to put up with that here and there, I'll take it; for my money tolkien's mythology, at it's very best, does for me what most of the real-life religious mythologies of human history resolutely fail to do, in that it makes me want to believe.
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Yeah but when Tolkien is looking down on people he always leave a light in the darkness : the Dunlendings are presented not only as primitive folks but also as an oppressed people, Sam wander what lies or coercion could have put this proud Southron on warpath, and even Orcs shan't be killed according to the wisest Elves...
Honestly, I may be optimistic, but given to Tolkien's generosity I tend to think he has a real and deep humanity even when he is looking-down upon a group. Yes Tolkien is a bigot, a male-chauvinist, a conservative, a racialist jerkass. But he associate prejudices that, even in his time, were conceived as conservative with a deep beliefe that there is no absolute evil, that even a creature like Gollum may find redemption (and cast itself in Mount Doom's fire... well), and that the humble wins it all : not only the Hobbits but a working-class hobbit. Speaking about class I don't think Tolkien was aware of the class-domination Frodo puts on Sam quite often, it's more a natural order, but the "his simplicity make him even better than his master" allow me to forgive these class-prejudices.
As for the guy... yeah he wasn't so aggressive but there is this eternal tendancy of religious people to give you the feeling that "well... I respect your right to be so deeply wong, you are not a bad person, you may even go to heaven with me" that makes me react quite abruptly. I believe I am as well a tolerant and open person, I have friends from the working-class to the upper-class (though most are, like myself, in the upper-middle-class), I have more black (american) friends than the average white (french) guy, a lot of them are gay or bi, some are theits others atheits, some are at the far left and even though I myself a leftist (but a moderate one : I have radical thinkings but consider myself a legalist with a tendancy to support the moderates in my political wing) my best-friend is a pretty conservative person.
All that being said I tend to be intolerant toward people who are trying to impose (directly or not) their view and/or have ideological thinkings/preconcieved ideas that I believe to be threatening for me or for the society I live in : homophobics, racists, male-chauvinists, etc. And I consider religious conservatives, religious people who never question their faith, to be that kind of persons.
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you don't need to quote my response for me, i know what i said, and can can scroll up to read it if i forget.
Of course. However, I prefer this format for comments, as I can respond directly to a given statement without need for a (to my mind, often awkward-looking) preamble to specify which one, exactly.
Still, if you insist...
*ahem*
To begin, give me a little credit, would you? I'm well aware that many people are easily infuriated by even the suggestion that someone would question the current status quo of relations between the sexes; I'm certainly not taking this up lightly.
I have my reasons for going against the grain, for suspecting that, so far as relations between the sexes go, the changes that have occurred over at least the last century or so have not enhanced the happiness and emotional well-being of western society as a whole but rather just the opposite. Mostly, I'm content to keep quiet and take notes for future reference, but while it's only to be expected that most of my contemporaries are going to think that pre-Feminist notions of the respective places of men and women in society were wrong or misguided, the frequent occurrence of statements like "antiquated bullshit" and the like (many of them, to be fair, far, far more vicious) in describing older attitudes piques my interest for a number of reasons. Most obviously, they highlight the visceral hostility that the current orthodoxy has towards alternative world-views, a reality quite at odds with the aura of judiciousness that modernist egalitarianism likes to cloak itself in, but they also suggest a certain contempt for people of times past in much the same way as the old story about people believing the Earth was flat until Columbus discovered the New World: they tend to cast our predecessors as a cartoon gaggle of idiots who couldn't have found their way out of a cardboard box rather than real people, little different from us in most respects, who dealt with the problems of their day to the best of their abilities.
Now, I realise you've described yourself as something of an apologist for times gone by, and as such, I hope you will accept that I'm not necessarily suggesting that you yourself look upon our ancestors as villainous cartoon characters, but instead that I'm trying to provide a (rather long and laboured, admittedly) explanation of why I've been harping over this issue in the first place.
Finally, as for Lewis, the trilemma is an interesting proposition, but somewhat irrelevant to this discussion as I'm not presently trying to make a case for the divinity of Christ. Chronological snobbery, on the other hand, suits my purposes admirably. After all, "regressive" and "progressive" merely describe whether one is moving towards or away from a given destination, not whether that destination is actually worth arriving at.
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Superb work with the crosshatching here. I like the way the lines seem shorter and more broken than in your other works. It gives this drawing a different vibe and character.
As for the concept, it is just perfect, as always. reminiscent of real world cultures, but not a coppy.
The pose, the stern faces, the unkempt hair and the simple tool like gear just adds for the badassery of the characters. You can sense the raw royalty and authority here.
Again, you made completely bland parts of the text into something interesting. Your wizard you.
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with this one i was trying to see how close i could get to the linework of the braun and schnieder plates. i was more pleased with how the results look in person than how they look scanned (scanning in general is kinda brutal on my work, it just makes every little thing i wasnt quite happy with stand out) I've been thinking recently that it might be worth my time to learn lithography/engraving/woodcuts/prints (it doesnt help that i dont even know what these goddamn things are, what the difference between them is, or really, which one i'm even looking at when i look at old 19th century "ink work," help me out if you know)
I'm glad you like the concept. i feel like I've garnered some contestation on the issue of the edain, at the time of their arrival in beleriand, as being basically pre-textiles, and i think this is mostly just because it's apparently not what people expect while reading, but (as i say elsewhere) considering that humanity it self is only about 200 years old at this point, and have probably been on the move most of that time (the advent of woven cloth came about as a result of settled farming and animal husbandry) a more "conan" type look seemed appropriate, though i think they would drop it pretty quick upon coming into contact with the elves (and may have largely done so even by haleth's time, when a technological innovation takes over it tends to take over pretty fast)
glad you like it, and that i was able to flesh out some of middle earth's dimmer corners
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Yeah, I agree, the elven culture will be really influencing to men, mostly at that time! Also, they are Conan-esque enough for me.
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I feel like the edain by turin and hurin's time are sort of noble savages in the same way that i related my
drawing of the Centaur to that archetype; they live among and have been taught by these wise, ancient, civilized elves, and they wear clothes the elves taught them how to make, and live in houses they taught them how to build, and carry weapons they taught them how to smithy (or in many cases, just gave them) but really they're still these rough, primitive beasts.
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Perfect description. I think this sums up the infancy of a race. Rich in vigour but poor in judgement.
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Lot to say (especially after reading all Zeonista's and Libra's comments) but so few time to do it. :/ (I'm sooo much looking forward to finish school !).
Firstable that's a fantastic drawing, I'll try to get back at every detail of the concept but I want to concentrate on the future work you are planning first.
Then, have you read this (if you don't I think it may interst and inspires you) : io9.com/5968792/the-middle-ear… .
Also you can stop struggling with that idea of the Edain being born two centuries before Haleth : Tolkien came back on that idea and the amount of time between the birth of the Elves and the War of the Jewels became much bigger in his latest work (unfortunately it never became "canon"). Funnilly Tolkien's concern wasn't about making the Edain's evolution believable but making the human origins of the Orcs coherent with Morgoth's jailtime. ^^ So you can bet (if my memory doesnt' betray me, I'll get back to this pretty soon) on a millenia or so of Man civilization since its early beggining to the time of Haleth. That doesn't invalidate your furs though (hopefully).
On the idea of the Hadorian familly I prefer Hurin's familly than Hador's (more differences on the first one, the second being only vikingish blond giants and vikingish blond young men). Have you considered including Sador ? I know you allready did a pretty good picture of him but in is last writings on the Druedain Tolkien considered making Sador a pûkel-man and said that there were a few of them living in Dor-Lomin (not much as they are a tiny people and most of them living in Brethil). Since I read that I like that idea so much... it will also explain why Morwen doesn't like him considering her lack of sympathy for the people of Brethil I can't imagine what the beautifullest of the Edain would think of those creatures. Continuing with the Drûedain there were also some of them in Numenor and seeing (almost) civilized Dunedain perhaps coming with their own version of the karma seems just awesome !
I'm very impatient about the "three cousins plate". Have you considered that Tuor being called "the tallest of the Edain" he could be taller than Elendil (as the Dunedain are only a sub-group of the Edain) ? You are gonna draw some giants in the Third Age as Thingol and Turgon are the tallest and the second-tallest children of Illuvatar.
If I was listening to the little voice in my head I will ask for a version of Turin for each of his numerous name but at second thougts your different "normal-people" plates seems conceptually much more interisting. Also mentionning that in Tolkien's last writings Turin is wearing the Dragon helm during all hi time in Doriath, most of the time in Dor-Cuarthol, at the last battle when he is a general in Nargothrond and in his last fight against Glaurung : not much variety. The only thing I see changing is that he will be wearing infantry mail in Doriath but probably cavalry mail in Nargothrond (but both dwarven-made probably) and only some clothes and leather in Brethil and Dor-Cuarthol. Yep I see him mounted when he is the general of Nargothrond cause after all he is their main leader and that's a Noldorian army so some cavalry is likely (except for Gondolin)... a black horse obviously ! (It just occured to me that Turin as the "man in black" of Middle Earth also share with Johnny Cash that sympathy for outsiders and outlaws he had
I'm so enthusiastic about this project of yours ! 
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If I might be so bold as to dip my oar in these waters, I would argue that while the sons of Hador are likely to have been much like their father, I would argue that his Haladin daughters-in-law and their sons would allow for a fair degree of diversity (since let's face it, why should the mother of Hurin and Huor NOT be a lady bred in 'Boudicca's Boot Camp for Bad--- Young Ladies' and therefore a fine indicator that the young Hurin therefore imbibed Bad------ with his mothers milk and from BOTH sides of his family line … much like his son). I also thought that it would really neat to see Hador Goldenhead in his glory, for sadly those tales of his House which have passed down to us don't really explain why it was HE who became and remained it's namesake even in the face of more storied descendants and I think that a portrait as good as those drawn by Master Mohan would be all the explanation we need.
Just look at what he's done with … well every minor Tolkien character he has ever drawn! (I didn't even know I LIKED Numenor before he enraptured me with that image of Ar-Pharazon and other illuminating illustrations of Numenoreans … ).
On the other hand Hurin and his Family are a perfectly valid choice and that choice is, after all, Master Mohan's to make.
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Since I am answering to old messages (this is the last one written before summer)...
I like your idea of Hurin & Huor's mother being an amazon in the tradition of the Haladin. I like it very much. That will explain why they are so good at fighting with both of their parents being fierce warriors. Flirting with an amazon would also make a good story for poor Galdor (the only thing he does in the book is being shot at).
Well Hador remained in the stories cause he is the first to swear allegiance to Fingolfin, thus making the Folk of Marach Edain, "Elf-friends". I think that's the only thing worth mentionned about him except that he was probably the tallest and strongest Man of his time (then beaten at this by his son) which probably impressed the Elves a lot (pretty much like Tuor in the Lost Tales : a great warrior in furs, taller than any Noldo except Maedhros and Turgon who didn't live in Hithlum). I always wondered what Tolkien meant through "Magor the Sword" and "Hathol the Axe"... probably just that it was their arm of choice (both being also the sindarin meaning of their names).
And indeed for Mohan's choice.
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I agree with all of the above … not least because it agrees with ME!
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you kidding? you three (and others besides) keep me limber. i may disagree sometimes, or stick to my guns on a piece just for the time I've put into it (though usually if it's just the time i've got invested that's keeping me holding on to a concept when there's a better one available, i'll usually come around in the long run) but the inspiration and stimulation i get from back and forths with other committed tolkien fans i consider invaluable.
I think tolkien might have pigeonholed himself on the issue of the humans reaching beleriand so shortly after their origin as a species (all my concerns about textiles vs hides aside even) it would seem kind of strange and not really human for Men to have come into being before the sun and moon (our origin coincided with the origin of those and it seems like they're kind of our "thing" the elves even acknowledge the "great lights" and especially the sun, to signify our time, and i think if i do a take on the house of hador's "golden banner" it will probably play into that idea of men as the "children of the sun") but it's also pretty clear that the rising of the sun (and therefore the dawn of man) is supposed to have further coincided with the arrival of the greater part of the noldorian host in middel-earth. if only the Noldorian tenure in beleriand had been going for, say a thousand years or so by the time men showed up XO
i'd considered including sador, because i love the character, and tend to see him as a man of hador's people, as per his appearance in the "canon" versions like the "the children of hurin." I don't know if I'll actually include him or not, because as Ive said to others i'd like this book to feel like history and not simply an excuse to draw all of middle earth's named characters, but I may put him in an illustrated scene with turin (I've had sador on the brain recently, because i saw his perfect likeness, atleast as I picture him, on the train a few days ago, only that man had two feet)
if memory serves me correctly tuor is reported as being the tallest of the edain of the elder days, which i tend to think would not make him taller than his long descendant elendil (though this could really be out of a desire on my part, for the sake of preserving some degree of reality, to see the eight foot elendil as a unique case, having what a scientific, non-tolkienian mind would recognized as some benign form of hormone-induced gigantism) thingol, as per tolkien's specifications, would have to top elendil as the "tallest of the children of illuvatar," though i was unaware that turgon was the second tallest of the eldar (I don't remember him anywhere having the handle "the tall" like maedhros does, although really that seems like something you could put behind the name of just about every non-hobbit tolkien protagonist) actually, coming from extraordinarily tall men on both his mother and father's side, it's kind of surprising that no mention is ever made of Earendil's height (or of his sons' who are moreover descendants of thingol)
funny enough "the man in black" and a sort of johnny cash-type persona to go with it had occurred to me for turin before.I will probably depict him during his time as the captain of nargothrond, as per the "children of hurin" chronology, with the dragon-helm, the sword guthang, and elven (or is it dwarven?) maille in his possession. it'll be hard for him not to take center stage as he's easily my favorite of the three (he's the batman of the group; the big, tough, tormented emo kid)
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I like the idea that the golden banners of the House of Hador might carry some solar symbol; it makes a most appropriate flourish, especially given the battle-call of the Northern Dunedain "FLAME LIGHT! FLEE NIGHT!" seems to hint at something of the importance which the newly-arisen sun must have held for Men.
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Well... you are right, considering you almost maid your deviant-art profile a tolkien-design forum I should have guessed you were demanding !
I really like the idea of the banner with the sun for the House of Hador (you noticed the sun is also the emblem on the king guard of Edoras' shields ?).
Sador is indeed a great character ! One of the only one in Silmarillion's to be a normal person, not noble, neither a warrior or a lord, and certainly the only one of that kind with a personnality we can rely to. Tolkien often does seem to have little interest in the people but when he does it's quite always really good (not mentionning Hamfast Gamgee). And his tragic but little destiny is good to, one of the many victims of Turin's curse, who survived the wars against Angband only to be slain as an old man in a slave rebellion.
I think Tolkien wanted to make him a Druadan cause of his skills at wood-crafting (the Druedain are remarked to be very good in that sort of things) and as often with Tolkien when he get a new idea he prefer to change a all bunch of stuff than just coming back on it.
His sosy was lucky not to be perfectly alike Sador then.
You are probably right on Tuor, your sentence seems familiar to me. Tolkien's ideas on size were really changing : after all at first the Gnome (Noldor) were smaller than Men and Dwarves. But I think in his final idea the Edain and Avari are smaller than the Noldor (the Dunedain being the same size around 6 - 6 1/2 feet) and the Sindar would be in the middle.
I can understand you missed Turgon as the "second tallest" : that's a side-note of the tale "of the coming of Tuor to Gondolin" that mentions also a quite precise (for Tolkien) description of Turgon's gear (with a crown with garnets, carrying the "staff of doom"* and dressed in white with a golden belt). It sounds logical (in Tolkien's world) as Turgon is probably the mightiest of all Kings after Thingol in Beleriand though. I guess Maedhros will be the third tallest (wow now we got the podium !)
* As the philosoph says : "no one knows what it means, but it's provocative" (no for real no one f***** know what this "staff of doom" is even if it's probably just a symbol of Turgon's ruling power !)
Yep that's not surprising for Eärendil as he isn't described that much in Tolkien's work (except in that Bilbo poem though written earlier than the mention of Turgon as "tall" but way after the idea of Tuor being tall). But it is for Elrond and Elros (even if for that last one you can judge by his descendants that he was probably kinda tall).
You know I think we both share a lot of thougts and idea on many thing but we also influence eachother. I recently read some conversations we had more than a year ago and I was mentionning the Numenoreans as some kind of Conquistadores and the Avari as some kind of elvish native-americans. I don't know if I was the first one or if the idea came from you (or possibly we both had it independantly) but that's just to say that the relation between Turin and Cash that I thougt I just made up may come from earlier writings of yours. 
As for Turin in Nargothrond I think the Silmarillion mentionned that "he was clad in dwarvish mail" (it seems that Nargothrond was a lot alike Doriath and very different from the two other Noldorin kingdoms and not only for the cave-fortress but also for the marchwarden hiding in the woods and the dwarvish treasures, etc. - making them will be fun as they will have to mix that Noldorin and Sindarin influence 
And yes : everyone love Baturinman ! (Tolkien's Elves can get on your nerves so it's always fine to have someone throwing things at them... except if you consider Tuor and Beren screwing their daughters to be some more subtle kind of revenge
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I was going to comment on this the other day but a computer-related hiccup stopped it. Stoopid modern age First World hassles....
I really liked this one, and I'm glad to see what you accomplished here. The pre-industrial colors and textures look very natural, as would be the case with Haladin fashion. I suppose you are "markers for life" at this stage!
Well, you remembered the shield this time.
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glad you like the colors, i think various shades of brown will most likely comprises the majority of human raiment throughout the three ages, barring some exceptions like the numenoreans and their rather colorless descendants. I don't know if i'd say markers for life, but I'm certainly enjoying them for this project; they're alot faster and easier a color medium to work with (for me) than watercolor.
as I mention above I imagine the haladin here (as well as the people of hador and beor) to be in a transitional stage from fur garments to woven wool/cloth. things were probably changing fast on that front in Haleth's time, as a result of increasingly friendly relations with the elves, who had cloth down to an art thousands of years earlier. I would think that even within a generation or two after the charaters featured here it would have completely taken over, furs transitioning into their more familiar (but still ancient) use as articles for added panache or status, like aerin's white wolf-hide (and of course for some particular cold-weather wear) funny enough, in this (and my earlier) drawing of Haleth, the girl from "brave" (which I still havent seen) is an influence on her, or atleast her hair. The Haladin i tend to see as having all those middle of the road haircolors - browns, reds and dirty blondes - between the very dark-haired beorians and the nordic, flax-haired people of hador.
the shield (and especially the la tene style ornaments) i think would be rather the common fashion among men of the three houses at this time, as in ancient northern european history hallstat/la tene culture seems to have been the dominant style across celtic/germanic lines (really, as far as i can tell, it's not so much that that style is "celtic" and the later viking style is "germanic" but that one was simply the common style among both groups in pre-roman northern europe - during which time the celts seem to have been the cultural and artistic leaders of the two, the germanic people, atleast in roman writer's estimation, being a fiercer but societally retarded people - and that the "germanic" style is more simply the post-roman northern-european style, as there really was very little distinct "celtic" culture by that time) I will probably try to invest a distinct "germanicness" in the hadorians (which in marach's time may actually make them just a little rougher around the edges than haleth's people) and give the beorians a subtle mediterreanian elegance to the lines and forms of their garments, but overall this is not too far from how I imagine the three peoples appearing at this time (as I mentioned to someone below, looking at this piece now I think I would probably have been better served putting that woman on the right in a tunic under her sheepskin cloak, like the woman on the left has, I think that'd have made th whole piece feel very different and a lot closer to how i see the haladin at this time)
the people of haleth do tend to take a "leave me the hell alone" attitude where the elves are concerned, never coming under any elven faction's wing as happened with the hadorians and beorians, and they seem to pay the price for it in terms of societal advancement, but they definitely dont seem to have shut out their fellow edain (of the most notable "hadorian" heroes of the age, hurin and his brother and their sons are just as much descendants of the haladin as of hador) as you say though their settlement in brethil was never actually destroyed as was dor lomin or dorthonian (except in part by hurin, of all people) an consequentially I don't expect that many of them went to the havens, or that they made much of a contribution to the numenorean gene pool. Actually I could see alot of the Haladin (though, as edain of the first age they had certainly earned a place on the ships bound for numenor) returning east over the blue mountains at the end of the first age (similar, i suppose, to haleth's rejection of caranthir's friendship, and the societal advancement that would have occured as a result of shuch a friendship) and becoming largely assimilated back in with the people of their same genetic strain (who cant really be called "haladin") throughout eriador, which seems to be middle-earth "celtic territory" as human culture is concerned.
you're right to say that haleth has her "monument" in middle earth's history, all the moreso as i can see her story brought back into the east by her descendants, and, through ages and confused re-tellings (these are people like the dunlandings we're talking about afterall, plenty of whom are pretty damn ignant) coming to take on mythic dimensions and even something like religious significance (it was a semi-intentional choice on my part, for that very reason, to present haleth as aged and somewhat hag-like, and that, flanked by her guards, the trio would appear as this very Morrigan-like triple goddess; perhaps the third age dunlandings or indegenous people of rhudaur have recieved her story that way, the good men of bree - who may very well be the decendants of the actual haladin themselves - are probably long past such backwoods nonsense
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I am not much of an expert in pre-modern clothing, except to know what it's like to wear it. I do know that linen and tanned leather & wool as the basis for clothing are more or less simultaneous with settled communal living and animal herding respectively. So whenever the Edain wished to know of and make use of these types of cloth, they would be able to do so, Elven patronage or no Elven patronage. (I remain completely baffled & amazed by the conclusion of some ancestral Chinese person to decide caterpillar silk would make excellent clothing!) I agree that the shift from "Celtic" to "Germanic" in Iron Age Europe is difficult to pin down, and represents a more or less "non-Roman European" development in many places. Not wholly European too, since there were contributions from the steppe peoples and through them the Persians as well. Dacia, with its hybrid mix of Celtic, Germanic, and Sarmatian traits, is one of those incidences that defy sweeping generalizations and carefully delineated limits of acknowledged "cultures".
I really don't see the People of Haleth as being especially suspicious of Elves, they just wished to live for themselves first, and try not to have any further trouble with Morgoth and his creatures if they could help it. The Haladin folk didn't even have enough interior social structure or acceptance of inherent/elected authority to support strong lords like the other houses of the Edain. So persuading Haleth and her successors to donate men and material for the never-ending war against Angband (especially after the Orcs nearly did for the lot of them) would have been a tall order in any event! Even with Beor and Hador choosing to serve the Noldor and fight Angband, a sizable number of their people chose to re-cross the Blue Mountains and seek homes elsewhere, rather than wage the good fight to contain a most tangible and threatening Evil. So the desire of the Haladin to live in & around Brethil with an eye to self-sufficiency and avoidance of danger should not be considered incredible or unusual. As events would prove, the Halethrim would become caught up in the War of the Jewels, whether or not they wished to be included. Life is like that some centuries....
Haleth's legacy in the legends of Middle-Earth would be to provide an ancestral example that putting the well-being of others ahead of one's self is a worthy deed, and doing brave deeds in the name of survival rather than glory, riches, and royal reward is no less honorable. The desperate, quiet courage of Bilbo, Frodo, Eowyn, and the faceless Ranger chieftains before Aragorn can all go back in some measure to Haleth. Someone stood up and took charge when it was needed, and faced down war, exodus, monsters, and deprivation despite her "gentle sex" because it needed to be done, regardless of the odds!
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i hear you about the first age edain being, even prior to their interactions with the eldar, an already agricultural, and therefore textile-making people (though linen would take some figuring out)as that's more or less the picture I get from tolkien's writing, but it puts a bad strain on beleiveability when you actually have to see it, considering that humanity is supposed to have just sprang to life no more than a couple generations earlier. No matter what your definition of when the "origin of man" occurred in our real world, it must be agreed it took us a hell of a long time hunting, gathering and fucking around with animal skins before we started raising livestock and making wool, whereas the origin of man and the origin of "human civilization" seem to have occurred in middle-earth basically one right after another (their bronze age, if they had one, lasts all of about five minutes, which is pretty damn speedy considering that six thousand years into their iron age they are still nowhere near an industrial era
nicely said about haleth and courage aswell, it's good to re-examine the characters from and emotional and narrative - in addition to simply anthropological - perspective.
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There is a lot of mythological content in The Silmarillion that has to be accepted at face value. I've observed & participated in online discussions about that sort of thing too, and they were all unsatisfactory from a purely objective & secular viewpoint. One has to consider & acknowledge the source and move on. But the Elder Days were the Ages of Myth in Middle-Earth, and people, demi-gods, and events were not constrained by such limitations as a globular world and recorded chronological history! So much for modern skepticism in a young world full of marvels!
Now from the proper objective view of modern scholarship, the development of Neolithic man into the settled farmers and fishermen of the Chalcolithic Ages of Europe, the Middle East, and India is an event of breathtaking speed from the long view of Earth's time. Within two millennia or so of the retreat of the glaciers at the close of the final Ice Age, humans on three continents are living in houses made of mud brick or mortared stones, tilling the earth, herding livestock, casting nets for fish, and wearing cloth and ornaments of precious metals and stones. And that's using the standard timeline we were all taught at school; recent discoveries posit the move towards advanced culture and something approaching civilization might have begun two thousand years before that time! So like the revered clergyman of bygone Creationist days, we may then confidently begin the Human world as we know it in the 5th century BC, after all the groundwork was in place.
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unsatisfactory indeed because there is no actual authority on the subject and never will be. but as for "move on," i spent ten hours on this drawing and will most likely be spending several thousand more. I've taken a step too far into unnecessary self-deprication and self-defeat for my own efforts by accepting at face value that a thing (like pre-beleriand cloth) was most likely tolkien's intent, just because most people reading the silmarillion assume as much. they also assume (judging from a random selection of images here on deviant) that elves had pointed ears, gollum was mostly naked, and luthien wore close fitting medieval dresses, but he doesnt state this anywhere. It is indeed a fantasy, and also a very vaguely written one with alot of room for interpretation, and little actual support for any dominant aesthetic except in the overactive and perhaps over zealous imaginations of fans. i will readily admit myself to be one of those fans (I am after all hunkering down to create a Middle-earth historic costume in pictures book) but it helps to take a step back and realize that tolkien's favorite illustrator of his own work was Cor Blok, and middle-earth is as much or as little in the hand of an artist as that artist wants it to be. the furs stay.
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I don't think you understood me fully. I said "move on" because it is quite impossible to discern or decide when/where/how the Edain gained such culture as they possessed when they entered Beleriand and met the Eldar. By normal standards they had come a long way, but true civilization had not been achieved because of the ongoing need to escape the Darkness. Given Tolkien's descripton of the Edain and the Eldar being more alike in their capabilities then, it would be more like Morgoth weighing the hearts & minds of Men down, and thereby slowing their development. In TOlkien's day the time before Europe emerged into the Bronze Age, and was mentioned in Mediterranean writings, was one blur of uncertainty, which he must have found convenient as a narrative device.
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Unless of course those lovely ladies absolutely INSIST they must go - never argue with an Amazon!
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Ah, Midlle-Earth type amazons.......
I INSTANTLY thought of Boudicca and her two daughters from this documentary I recall seeing on the History Channel years ago when I saw Haleth and her two guardswomen at her sides. XD
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well considering that boudicca and her two daughters were on my mind while working on this, start to finish, i'd say that's astute of you (in real life boudicca's daughters were raped by roman soldiers and it seemed almost like a fantasy form of redressing that terrible offense to make haleth's daughter-like guards these great, unassailable badasses)
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XD
Boy I cannot wait to see what you have next!
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Love them 
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thank you, she's one of my favorites as well. glad you think i was able to catch some of that.
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You're welcome! You definitely did ^^
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What amazes me is the still untapped potential of Tolkien world. There is a full blown novel in the above story and lord know how many novels in the 10,000? years of the Tolkien's timeline
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nobody beat tolkien for world building, and i think in large part it's because that seems to have been his primary interest (rather than, without nameing names, a more professional novelist who creates a fantasy world as a background on which to tell a present-tense story) the silmarillion is a short book, but it feels like a whole library of compelling novels in extremely condensed form. i think he was actually better at that sort of writing than he was as a novelist.
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It was Christopher Tolkien who put Silmarillion together from his father's material, though. I've read some of the original text from the History of Middle Earth series. While the stories appear to be the same, the writing style may be very different. For example, let's take Lay of Leithian, the original text behind the story of Beren and Lúthien. While the text in the Silmarillion is very plain, JRR actually writes it entirely in a form of a poem, adding a lot of detail to it, loyal to his style.
The original text, I think, gives the story characters some more depth.
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