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uncledon In reply to Theinvisibledeity [2019-07-18 03:39:13 +0000 UTC]

In a general sense I disagree in that for the most part it is the childhood indoctrination that they have been subjected to by those well-meaning but similarly deluded people around them. It is a rather vicious circle of self-reinforcement where one generation infects the next so that they can feel they themselves have not been misled by their ancestors. This type of personal mental investment which might be seen as a mild form of psychosis is why so many parents and family member react with aggressive rejection, hostility and often overt violence towards those who express a differing viewpoint whether that be joining a different sect within the greater religious sphere, an entirely different religion or often far worse rejection of any religious ideology. Those people are often incapable of separating their beliefs from their own self-image and view such actions as a direct personal attack as they cannot see beyond the narrow mental confines they have been forced into.

To think that there are people who cannot break free of such indoctrination through education and reasonable discourse is to declare an ‘us-versus-them’ perspective or at minimum to imagine that there are some who are simply incapable of thinking for themselves needing to be led. Granted many have been thus mentally manipulated such that they seem unable to free themselves yet there are many case examples of people who’ve spent decades often beyond middle age but have in fact stepped away from superstition and dogma to see the world from a rationally perspective. Yes there are some who relish their mythological delusions, who wallow in primitive ignorance and are gleefully happy to dismiss objective reality if it dares to conflict with their religious fantasies and a perfect example of that sort of ignorant buffoon is Ken Ham. But there are also those who have decided that their well-being, their livelihood and in some cases their personal safety require that they remain hidden which is why we must all work to aid them, to support them and to try to guarantee their safety when possible.

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Theinvisibledeity In reply to uncledon [2019-07-18 06:33:42 +0000 UTC]

"In a general sense I disagree in that for the most part it is the childhood indoctrination that they have been subjected to by those well-meaning but similarly deluded people around them. It is a rather vicious circle of self-reinforcement where one generation infects the next so that they can feel they themselves have not been misled by their ancestors. This type of personal mental investment which might be seen as a mild form of psychosis is why so many parents and family member react with aggressive rejection, hostility and often overt violence towards those who express a differing viewpoint whether that be joining a different sect within the greater religious sphere, an entirely different religion or often far worse rejection of any religious ideology. Those people are often incapable of separating their beliefs from their own self-image and view such actions as a direct personal attack as they cannot see beyond the narrow mental confines they have been forced into."

The problem is that such a delusion and indoctrination into said delusion is widely accepted by society. Some people are waking up in developed nations, however; this picture contrasts greatly with developing nations such as Uganda were being gay is punishable by law (a law that an American, Scott Lively, pushed). There are reports from the Ugandan homosexual community of gay men being beaten to death by mobs and lesbians are being "fixed" by way of "corrective rape" (none of which Scott Lively condoned but his anti-gay rhetoric paved the way for such barbaric deeds). Russia is not far behind either but some people do not see that they see a Christian nation doing the right thing. To this day the "right thing" is the same as centuries ago when people were being humiliated and killed for not conforming to the religion of the land or masses.


"To think that there are people who cannot break free of such indoctrination through education and reasonable discourse is to declare an ‘us-versus-them’ perspective or at minimum to imagine that there are some who are simply incapable of thinking for themselves needing to be led. Granted many have been thus mentally manipulated such that they seem unable to free themselves yet there are many case examples of people who’ve spent decades often beyond middle age but have in fact stepped away from superstition and dogma to see the world from a rationally perspective. Yes there are some who relish their mythological delusions, who wallow in primitive ignorance and are gleefully happy to dismiss objective reality if it dares to conflict with their religious fantasies and a perfect example of that sort of ignorant buffoon is Ken Ham. But there are also those who have decided that their well-being, their livelihood and in some cases their personal safety require that they remain hidden which is why we must all work to aid them, to support them and to try to guarantee their safety when possible."

Just as some break away from the shackles of superstition at middle age there are those who happily clasp them on. I have not been through that phase of my life but I have heard from many that it is in those years that many people have an existential crisis which is exactly where religion triumphs with its promises of happiness here and a better existence after death. Such an offering is too difficult to ignore at such an age when people feel much closer to death than life.

Of course we should help those "closeted" individuals. I had to do the same until I came of age because my father made it quite clear of my fate when he yelled, "No son of mine will be an incredulous imbecile." Luckily for him this "incredulous imbecile" did not abandoned him in his time of need. 

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uncledon In reply to Theinvisibledeity [2019-07-18 20:15:34 +0000 UTC]

“The problem is that such a delusion and indoctrination into said delusion is widely accepted by society.”

I agree and therein lays the most serious problem.

“Some people are waking up in developed nations, however; this picture contrasts greatly with developing nations such as Uganda were being gay is punishable by law (a law that an American, Scott Lively, pushed).”

Granted but I do not think that you are trying to advocate an interventionist policy. If that or any other country allows foreigners to promote idea from their agenda that is entirely their prerogative and having lived in many countries most do not allow or enjoy such.

“There are reports from the Ugandan homosexual community of gay men being beaten to death by mobs and lesbians are being "fixed" by way of "corrective rape" (none of which Scott Lively condoned but his anti-gay rhetoric paved the way for such barbaric deeds).”

That is because such simple-minded buffoons are generally incapable of expanded though beyond their black and white mindset. They have deluded themselves into thinking that their narrow minded obsessions will be ‘fixed’ by the application of equally simplistic ‘laws’ not imagining that in the hands of such intolerant, somewhat primitive tribal cultures this will become a weapon by which they can exercise their latent hostility and violent character against those the frighten them.

“Russia is not far behind either but some people do not see that they see a Christian nation doing the right thing.”

Russia has made several steps towards promoting the Eastern Orthodox church as the state religion but then they have also ousted Scientology as a cult from the country and given Jehovah Witnesses the boot for various illegal acts.

“To this day the "right thing" is the same as centuries ago when people were being humiliated and killed for not conforming to the religion of the land or masses.”

Yes we are now on the backswing of religious conservatism and militancy due to the rising tide of non-belief and atheism in the west. The christians are frightened as they watch their grip on power continue to fade and fear that the actual persecution and hostility that they have dished out for centuries will soon be turned onto them when they are no longer able to wield power. This is because the only tactics christianity has only ever known how to use are fear, intimidation, coercion and force despite all their false platitudes of brotherhood, love and peace.

Christians love to whine that they are being ‘persecuted’ when they are stopped from abusing other people who do them no personal harm. They protest that Islam is a religious of hate while the wave a placard that screams ‘god hates fags’ while some go so far as to claim that anyone daring not to follow their barbaric mythology does not deserve rights or to be a citizen. So much for the ‘prince of peace’ they ramble on about.

“Just as some break away…at such an age when people feel much closer to death than life.”

Here I agree very much.

“Of course we should help those "closeted" individuals.”

Then again as so often we agree.

“I had to do the same until I came of age because my father made it quite clear of my fate when he yelled, "No son of mine will be an incredulous imbecile." Luckily for him this "incredulous imbecile" did not abandoned him in his time of need.”

Then you have my sympathy for what you went through during those years as well as my acknowledgement that, and I hope this does not offend, you are a more ethical and moral person than he was.

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Theinvisibledeity In reply to uncledon [2019-08-09 20:59:52 +0000 UTC]

I am late again. 

"Yes we are now on the backswing of religious conservatism and militancy due to the rising tide of non-belief and atheism in the west. The christians are frightened as they watch their grip on power continue to fade and fear that the actual persecution and hostility that they have dished out for centuries will soon be turned onto them when they are no longer able to wield power. This is because the only tactics christianity has only ever known how to use are fear, intimidation, coercion and force despite all their false platitudes of brotherhood, love and peace."

Oh they are definitely frightened that is why they peddle their persecution complex. There isn't a single day when I do not hear my Protestant co-worker talk about the persecution of Christians. It is almost as if Christians love to wallow in self-pity, it probably validates their belief in Christ that one must suffer in exchange for eternal life.

Brotherhood, love, and peace are fronts to make Christianity seem more welcoming than "you're going to hell if you do not accept Jesus." The bible speaks of brotherhood and love in "loving thy neighbor" but Christians are still interpreting that line because they know that they hate in spite of their mantra: hate the sin, love the sinner. They fail to see a neighbor in an illegal immigrant, in a Muslim, a homosexual, or any non-believer. As for peace, the bible states that Jesus told his disciples that he did not come to earth to bring peace. Revelations paints a deadly Christ who is back for blood. Peace is not, nor will ever be, a priority to Christians 

"Christians love to whine that they are being ‘persecuted’ when they are stopped from abusing other people who do them no personal harm."

Yeah, it causes them much heartache to see people going about their lives without having a care about what Christians want.

"They protest that Islam is a religious of hate while the wave a placard that screams ‘god hates fags’ while some go so far as to claim that anyone daring not to follow their barbaric mythology does not deserve rights or to be a citizen. So much for the ‘prince of peace’ they ramble on about."

Oh the irony. I suspect that deep down Christians are envious of Muslims for having theocracies of their own. If anything they would love to return to the days where people like me where humiliated publicly before being executed or exiled.

"Then you have my sympathy for what you went through during those years as well as my acknowledgement that, and I hope this does not offend, you are a more ethical and moral person than he was."

You do not offend me at all. 

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uncledon In reply to Theinvisibledeity [2019-08-12 03:21:07 +0000 UTC]

As frequently occurs we seem to be in agreement or at least find consensus.

I was really not overly concerned that I might ‘offend’ yet that does not mean I have totally abandoned civility.

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