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WaywardInsecticon β Insecticomic 667
Published: 2010-01-17 05:45:06 +0000 UTC; Views: 1161; Favourites: 23; Downloads: 32
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Just clearing out some one-shot scripts that've been sitting around for months, don't mind me ...How Shadow became Shadros, just because I like the strip.
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Comments: 40
This strip seems to be attracting a few people who've COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.
That said, LOL SHADOW. I missed him. I feel bad for saying that.
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Frankly, I was expecting all the replies to be, "How can you say that? Everyone knows [other guitarist] is better!"
"It's so annoying when people talk to each other about things I don't like," is a bit of a surprise.
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It also makes me wonder what they're doing reading the Insecticomics. I mean, what sexuality? (Ask Kickback.)
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I would say it depends on the Slash. But Shadros generally overdoes it.
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Hmm, for once, I'd share myself on Shadow's side. Slash fans like that tickk= me off badly. Clever decoy though.
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Slash fans like what?
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The kind that would say "I'm so into slash. Slash is the best." It's a long story between my inability/refusal to see male and female as something different in anything but a practical sense (and in that vein, refusal to consider het, m/m slash and f/f slash different things, let alone one of them superior to the other) and extraordinarily annoying and, more often than not, sexistic and homophobic slash(-only) fans. I feel unwell when someone doesn't ship because the characters are a good match but because "OMG, they are both doodz!".
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See, this is kind of funny because it's the exact same way I see a lot of het - it's not about whether the characters actually work as a match, it's just that one's a gal and one's a guy and therefore it must be love. ( Shallow slash hook-ups tend to be more 'I find them both attractive' or 'I can make a cutesy 'ship name'. )
Still, all comes down to preference. If Raevenne was talking about how, I dunno, fantasy was her favourite genre, would that immediately assume that she hated all non-fantasy and would jam elves into everything?
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Erhm, I can see how I might have given the impresssion I am letting het(-only) fans off the hook. This, I assure you, is very much not the case, but it simply did not come up within context to talk about them other than that I noted I am on Shadow's side "for once".
I don't believe fantasy is of the same category level as slash. Slash is a character-oriented direction instead of an overall theme/setting, even if there are borderline cases. That is why I don't think the comparision is adequate. If Raevenne had said "Fantasy is the best", that would not trigger my 'respect for others'-sense. Because it describes a preference for setting, not a preference or even demand for character behaviour which nearly always is based on one's rather shallow believes about how others should be.
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"I'm so into well-characterised slash that explores the chemistry I felt the characters had in canon - not to say I'm not all for het, I just personally find slash more interesting," takes too long to say and doesn't set up for misdirection.
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Thank you, I want that on a shirt.
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Heheh, point.
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THIS. My god, chemistry means more to a believable onscreen romance than gender, would writers please recognize this? The main guy and the main girl fall "in love" because they're the main guy and the main girl, not because they necessarily have good interaction or anything in common.
I have nothing against het, but little to no taste for it personally either. Why? Because it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. I could find a male-female romance in any flavor, sweet or spicy, healthy or twisted, passionate or subtle, just by looking through any old bookstore or movie rack. Try finding a decent relationship story between two people of the same gender, and you realize just how barren the market is. Fanfiction is about the only place it's common. Everywhere else, it's hard as hell to find and when you do find it, often as not it's either "just porn" or is there for shock value more than anything. It's to the point where I'm just plain tired of het. I was into romances of both varieties for a number of years, but eventually overexposure to one just deadened me.
Slash has its hangups too, of course. The "put 'em together because they're both cute" is my biggest pet peeve (and don't even get me started on the fanfic law of All Male-Male Partnerships Must Involve Buttsex). Whether or not I give half a crud about the story or the pairing depends on how it's written -- I certainly don't like all slash, or hell, even most slash. But I'm more likely to find interest in it than in het, which I'm thoroughly jaded about.
(Also, this again. Being a fan of something doesn't mean you're bashing everything not in that category, by default. I didn't hear Raven Anne or whatever saying anything against het pairings.)
One day, I will stop typing reply essays.
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If I may deposit a suggestion: I am a huge graphic novel/comic fan and I have tons of those in which m/m and f/f relations or homosexual characters are done normally. Especially Grignoux from the final "Passengers of the Wind"/"Les Passagers du Vent" album is a character I think everyone should read about, not to mention the treat that is the first album's awesome relation between Agnes and Isabeau.
I would call fanfiction just as barren, "for porn" or for shock value as your description of the official market in regards to homosexual relationships. Rarely can I find a piece that's half-decent or at least fullfills the basic needs of IC and logic. In fact, it's overexposure to (crappy) "it's two girls/guys and that's all that matters!" fanfiction/art (that in truth is meant to satisy the heterosexual needs of the male/female audience) and the attitude of various slash fans that made me re-evaluate what slash means to me. In short, I want a good ship made believable and not be confronted with what genders it happens to involve - in that sense, much to my displeasure, mindless conventional f/m is more often a better experience to me than m/m or f/f, simply because it is mindless conventional whereas m/m and f/f usually have an intention that shines through the lines.
That said, because I don't care a bit about the genders involved, I don't hold either situation against the sexual direction by default.
What I said to WaywardInsecticon on "Slash is the best."
Don't. Reply essays are a good read.
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I didn't say fanfiction wasn't just as bad. But since same-sex pairings are much more common in fanfiction, you're more likely, statistically, to come across some that's well-written. Sure, the majority isn't, but patient sifting has dredged me up a ton of good fic, and I've taken a crack at writing some myself (mileage may vary as to whether I've actually succeeded). The very fact that m/f IS mindless conventional (the "default") is what annoys me and turns me off to it. It's a subconscious reaction, not a deliberate one, but pretty strong. Het doesn't disgust me or disturb me. It just plain doesn't usually interest me.
Often the slash I find enjoyable is essentially just characters who were very close and/or had very good chemistry in the official material, but would never have been paired there because they both happen to be the same sex, whereas if they were boy and girl they'd have resolved their UST in five episodes. That kind of double-standard grates on me like sandpaper. So, I read the pairings that make sense to me, but I favor the slash pairings because it's more refreshing to read slash when I'm already bombarded with het in official publications. I rather like not having that implicit "we are together because we're the main male and female characters" message glaring me in the face in whatever I read, because to me, that is the loud and clear intention behind 90% of canon het. Despite your claims, I don't see such intentions quite as often in slash. Most of the pairings I see there (outside of porn) make sense, and aren't just there because they "should" be.
Also, I don't read/write slash for my "heterosexual needs". My robots are technically genderless, hermaphroditic analogues, so if I just loved penises enough to write two of them, rampant TF slash would kind of defeat the purpose. XP
(Forgive me, but the fandoms I'm interested in do not produce graphic novels, let alone those with such relationships. So it doesn't help much to satisfy my particular cravings. But thank you for the advice.)
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The second paragraph implied so much, the third denied it. I was not saying you said such things, only trying to figure out the correct reply angle.
I agree with you 100% on main (het) pairings. I have a lot of problems with those myself often enough, be it because the characters have no chemistry beyond hormones-in-close-range or, worse, because of beta-kicking (the situation in which you have a trio (or team with 'redundant' members) of extremely close friends and towards the end, the alpha member of the group will get romantically involved with the sole opposite-gendered member of the team at the cost of the friendship with the beta, which nags at me because the alpha and the beta generally have/had no less reason to fall in love than the alpha and the opposite gender). It is therefore not rare for me to prefer the side (het) relations which often actually are more interesting. This is also why I want to place a note with your 90% claim, because, as you more or less already said, "should" nearly only goes for alpha pairings. Beta pairings are a whole different matter.
And of course, I'm far less involved with mainstream media than with other types of stories, which gives me a whole different view on the culture(s) of het and slash. I am aware Hollywood and the likes generally shove alpha het pairings down people's throat (mind, because they believe/know that's what the main audience wants), but there's so many more stories than theirs that you can't hold them as significant enough to be defining. That compared to what I have witnessed in fandom slash leaves me only little doubt that (fandom) slash is more intentional than (fandom) het.
A little return to the start of this discussion, it began with "slash fans like that". I am still talking about them, not you. You might be one of them, I can't tell from the conversation up until now, but I am presuming you aren't. Surely not every slash fan is so because of their own heterosexual needs.
Which is not to say your example of gender-traits quite holds, given how often in slash the "uke" is given 'traits' that according to my knowledge of biology don't exactly mark them male.
Hmm, a theoretical question for you regarding slash, het and convention in TF fiction. More often than not in TF fiction, there's a certain conventional human attitude towards ships in that physical similarities make two characters more likely to get shipped. Suppose you'd come across a Howlback/Acid Storm fic (and if necessary, suppose you care about those characters), would your uninterest in het prevail?
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Physical similarities? I go by chemistry mostly. Pairings like, say, Red Alert and Inferno make sense to me. They were really close in canon (in the old cartoon at least; I'm less familiar with the comic continuities), and the fact that they're different "models" doesn't really register. I don't care for pairing, say, Prowl and Bluestreak because they both turned into Datsuns. I can see where Transformers might hypothetically be a little more inclined to pair up with people who share a similar model, if they possess anything resembling our "like attracted to like" tendencies in choosing mates. But generally speaking, two people being the same model doesn't make them a better pairing. Nor, by connection, does the opposite. Would I read Howlback/Acid Storm? Yes, because the pairing itself is unique (neither of those characters is even used by fans most of the time) and I'd want to see how well it was done. If done well, it would be awesome, and I'd save it. But if it were badly written, no, the uniqueness would not be enough to sell me the story. Either way, being het doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a chance. I just might not be as "instantly hooked" as I would be on the pairings already close to my Spark, most of which happen to be slash.
I root for a lot of het relationships. Currently I'm a big fan of the TV series Castle and I not only have no problems with the main pairing, I love watching it unfold and I'm eager to see it move forward. But that's because they get along awesomely and are already good friends, with all the quirks of an interesting relationship. Honestly, I'll give a story a chance either way, BUT it takes more to really grab my interest with a het pairing, simply because I'm so burned out on them. It doesn't mean I'll slam het pairings as being unrealistic or uninteresting on principle, just means I personally am less likely to get drawn into one. It takes more to sell it to me, so to speak. Convince me this is more than just "more of the same".
And really, the same applies to fanfiction. I'm picky as hell about slash. I might check out a story purely because I like the pairing, but it ain't getting faved unless I like the writing. For instance, I like the concept of Jazz/Prowl, as I could see it being an awesome pairing of near-total opposites that might actually have a lot in common underneath. I'd love to see the balance struck between contrasts that one could get in a decent J/P story... if one existed. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any that come close to handling the pairing with much regard for characterization or believability, despite being one of the most common TF fandom pairings. So while I like the pairing in principle, or at least see no reason it couldn't hypothetically work, I never read it. My experiences have taught me that it's never what I'm looking for.
I just figured out another reason I like slash. I have a thing for underdogs, for pairings that are heavily implied (or at least it seems like it) in canon but are never made official, or are trumped by other pairings that seem to make less sense. Mainstream media being what it is, those potential pairings usually tend to be not-het. Like what you were saying above about the "alpha male" having a better relationship with, say, his best friend the beta male than with the token alpha female in the story. It happens a lot, and it's usually the pairing that attracts me. I may enjoy watching official pairings unfold, if done well as in Castle for instance, but they seldom suck me in. I seem to mostly get hooked on "I can totally see it, but they'll never actually do it" pairings. Even the rare movies/shows/books featuring a canon non-het couple, I've noticed I usually don't tend to get into them much. I like the implieds, I like the would-bes, the things that I could easily believe if they were done but that I know won't be. And that means, more often than not, slash. (Actually that IS the original definition of slash, which was simply a fan depiction of a non-canon pairing, regardless of the gender of the characters. It's just largely come to mean same-sex pairings now, and very often the two definitions tend to overlap.)
As for unrealistic biology of ukes... ... don't get me started on ukes at all. Seriously. What is the POINT of writing a male-male relationship if you're going to stereotypically "feminize" one of the characters, or for that matter, pairing any characters you like if you're going to change one's characterization? Either way is ridiculous. Anatomy fail is just icing on that failcake.
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From what I know of the comics, Red Alert/Inferno is pretty much a cartoon-only thing, unfortunately. And the point of my question was if the knowledge something is het or slash would remain meaningful to you if a (to me) more present convention, such as "human/human", was already at stake. The answer I'm deducing is "no", which is what I was hoping for.
And damn, now I do want to find myself some Howlback/Acid Storm.
Heh, whatever deity in existence knows I have tried very, very hard to like Prowl/Jazz or at least to understand its appeal and theoretical functioning (theoretical - because not a single fic was forthcoming on the matter). It didn't work and, no offence, it's currently in my top most disliked same faction pairings. Personally, I prefer Jazz with either Zoom-Zoom or Blaster, and Prowl with Roulette. And due to a conversation with a friend, I have taken an interest to Beta/Prowl, because they'd have potential personality-wise and seem an amusing match in terms of hierarchical/familial connection.
I didn't say the alpha and beta (who don't necessarily are male, they can be female too, though that case is rarer) have a better relation than the alpha and the opposite gender. Only that I have yet to see a case in which the alpha and the beta have a worse relation than the alpha and the opposite gender. Otherwise I totally get where you are coming from. Beta and gamma pairings are rarely not done better or not made more interesting than the alpha pairing(s). But in part, I would blame the main characters separately too for often lacking that balance of quirks and flaws that makes the rest of the cast loveable, which therefore results in main/main = bore.
..I love you right now.
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If I wrote Jazz/Prowl, it would be damn near unrecognizable compared to what's all over the fandom now. I might actually try it someday, just to have the satisfaction of seeing what's in my head existing on the Internet, and y'know, for giggles. But I can agree with you as far as the presentations of it I've actually seen, and that's why I don't read it. Believe it or not, I actually had the idea before it was cool. I didn't share it with anybody, but the idea was in my head before I saw it on the Internets. Then I read some and was deeply disappointed.
(Ironically, I write Jazz and Blaster as people who can't stand each other but are both too "cool" and "nice-guy" to just come out and argue. So they avoid each other, and when they do get thrown together, they trade snide remarks disguised as harmless jokes. Or they get into a dance competition. Since they despise each other's tastes in music, this is hilarious for everyone else.)
I actually don't often like pairings of similar personalities or interests. Maybe because I'm a biology nerd married to a tech geek. We differ more than we have in common, but compatibility stems from it nonetheless. Therefore, pairing two bots on the basis of "they both love music" isn't something I'm likely to do. I mean, I've seen it done well, once or twice, but usually I find the Soundwave/Blaster/Jazz cluster as tedious as anything.
Now I want to see Howlback/Acid Storm too. Somebody make it happen! (I can't write Decepticons for crap, alas.)
Agreed, main characters tend to be boring. Maybe that explains why I keep falling for the most obscure characters imaginable. I still remember being only one of two Robotech/Macross fans on the Internet whose favorite character was Exedore. XP (Yes, he still is.)
Don't fall in love with me. I'll just break your heart.
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I believe you. Hey, would you ever write that fic, care to note me? I'd kill to finally read something minimally half-way decent about such a popular pairing.
I have a semi-OC who loves dance and music and (technically) belongs to the Decepticon ranks since early war. One part of her story I came up with is that she's an ex of Soundwave - with whom she was '
The above is a very simplified summary, but the basic idea is that it contains one of my frustrations with many ships: just because the characters have one or two points in common doesn't automatically mean they'd make a good ship. Of course they need some common grounds, but those need some substance to them.
For instance, I ship Sundor/Sunstorm based on their powers, but the thing is that their powers are basis to a big part of their personalities. Sunstorm believes his powers are from divine origin, so in how many ways could he react if he met someone (of great beauty) with similar abilities? And Sundor knows he's got his powers from a sun, needs a sun to fuel his abilities and wishes to become equal to it. Again, there's not many ways he could react to meeting someone who practically is a living sun. In the end, a relation between them would be mostly about feeding their individual egos, but under that condition, it would work. Another example I can come up with is Chromia/Ironhide. Aside from that I by rule never mess with canon pairings (at the most add a third), I ship them, not because they are similar but because of the way their similarity (and established relation) gives me the idea me of two childhood friends-turned-lovers: a kind of relation I would not know another example/possibility of in G1. (And yes, I am aware Ironhide/Chromia is not 100% canon, but the chances they are not are pretty small to the chances they are.)
I don't have interest in the ship of Jazz/Blaster simply because they both like music. It also takes cues from that scene in the cartoon in which Blaster starts playing music and everybody hates it except for Jazz, who begins to dance - they share an exclusive understanding then. There's also a part of own annoyance with Rosanna's bio that states she's the only one who understands Blaster's love for music, which sounds like a rather big claim to me, hence an own 'need' to have Blaster associate with people who arguably understand as well (and yes, that includes Jazz, as noted before). Their personalities seem compatible enough: both are socially active and prominent figures with bits of leadership qualities. I acknowledge it is not my favoured or most thoroughly constructed ship for either of them, but I like their potential.
Jazz/Zoom-Zoom also does not stem (only) from their shared like of music. What draws me to the pairing is the way they together can emphasize how different they are. Zoom-Zoom was created from Jazz's personality that the latter had acquired after millions of years of life experience - experience Zoom-Zoom doesn't have. I find it highly intriguing how this makes and could make Zoom-Zoom someone different and what role Jazz could play in that.
And I'm never happy with what I create.
I know the feeling. I am way too much with characters nobody else really cares about, or sometimes outright hates. But they so often are so much more interesting.
:*(
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The Autobots' "girlfriends" in that episode bugged the crap out of me for one simple reason: while it's acknowledged that they worked together, it's never stated they were couples, or at least that all of them were. Powerglide and Moonracer act like old school buddies, quite likely platonic; Firestar and Inferno act like old coworkers, with Inferno's tone suggesting he might have a crush/be carrying a torch (ha ha) for her, which, while she likes him, she doesn't reciprocate. I admit that's a lot to draw from a few lines, but I have an active imagination that way. My point is that because these guys and gals know each other, like each other and have worked together, BOOM! fandom takes it as canon that they're all in relationships. Starscream even assumes it, saying the girls have "come to rescue their boyfriends!" (Which is far from calling it canon, unless one seriously believes that Starscream is never wrong or knows everything about Autobots.) Whereas in Auto Berserk, if Red had been a girl, their interactions at the end would almost certainly have been intended as confirmation of a relationship. It's that kind of double-standard I'm talking about.
However, Ironhide/Chromia were the only couple in that (apart from Optimus/Elita, and truthfully, don't even get me started on that) who did seem to actually be a pair. I agree, they acted like lovers who'd been friends first and known each other a long time, possibly most of their long lives. I see no reason to raise issue with that, despite Ironhide's obvious equally strong connection to Prime. One of the nice things about writing TFs is that I don't have to assume they're monogamous (or pretend to be) as is generally the assumption in human relationships. Given how long they live and that their relationships don't have the complication of worrying about reproduction, I see them possibly building very complicated and interconnected intimate relationships with several people close to them over periods of centuries or millennia. Which means, among other things, that I don't have to just "ignore" or try to write out a canon couple because a non-canon partner for one of them makes more sense or appeals to me more. Love triangles are for amateurs. My TFs have love dodecahedrons.
(This doesn't mean that they can't have problems with jealousy, of course. Some bots have more possessive personalities than others, and like to lay exclusive claim to another if they can, for various reasons. Or they may be fine with sharing but don't particularly like one or more of the other partners, resulting in rivalry. Or it simply becomes competition for attention/affection, which, while not usually as vicious as competition over mates for purposes of reproduction, can get pretty spirited. All of this just makes for more fun writing their relationships.)
So for example, I could totally get into (based solely on the G1 cartoon anyway) an Optimus/Elita/Ironhide/Chromia relationship complex, which all are perfectly fine with, though jealousies and conflicts occasionally flare. Likewise, I don't have a problem with Inferno being shared between Red Alert and Firestar as I've seen in many fics, but I don't really see it myself, as their (admittedly limited) interaction suggested a different relationship between Inferno and Firestar to me. The "double standard" rule in canon may annoy me, but I try to be impartial in deciding whether couples, canon or fanon, make sense to me regardless of gender. I don't always succeed, but I try.
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Never saw Moonracer and Powerglide or Firestar and Inferno as items myself either. Heck, F & I only talk about work and while a case could be made M and P were flirting, then so definitely were various other characters throughout the show who are not considered items. And as for Starscream's remark, you are absolutely correct he has no reason to know whether these random Autobots are in a relation (and besides, his talk can't be taken 100% anyway because the unnamed two came to help as well). Personally, I tend to believe he was being derisive there, as the Decepticon mindset makes that even the kindest amongst them would be hard-pressed to help out without some prospect for gain.
Apologies in advance, but as an absolute EO/OP(/UM) fan, I do want to get you started. What's wrong with them?
Hmm, not much of a fan of the "everybody does everybody" angle (to put it undoubtedly not as you mean it). I agree to a higher idea of freedom, particular for the arguments of their theoretical infinite lifetime and the species' own trait of engaging in many types of physical interaction (think: combiners, Mini-Cassettes, altmodes which 'need' another to function, etc.), but there's also a technical side to relations I find difficult to ignore. For instance, Ironhide is Optimus Prime's bodyguard. A relation between them is kinda asking for trouble. Not that I don't like them together, but I'd think they both have enough of a working mind to understand the danger they'd put each other in. Generally speaking, I am very careful about shipping high-rankers, and other members of groups I'd foresee to become problematic. And reproduction is not the only reason we as humans keep our number of partners limited: there's also the matters of trust and feeling appreciated that don't work so well if you're 'just' one of many. ... Would you by any chance be familiar with ElfQuest?
My problem with most Firestar/Inferno/Red Alert fics is the rivalry between F & RA, even if it later gets resolved. It never feels the slightest IC to and I don't recall ever seeing a fic in which there actually was a setup to rivalry. F & RA are just and rather suddenly fighting over Inferno, who does little to stop them. Sometimes the fics are fun post-resolve, but a bad start can ruin things anyway in the long run. Optimus/Elita/Ironhide/Chromia I'd love to read one day (aside from the few 'double date'-fics I've seen around), but I don't quite believe it could work out among them. Optimus and Elita have responsibilities Ironhide and Chromia are far less restricted by or royally don't care about. Compare OP's and Ironhide's reactions to being judged off Earth in MMP. Optimus respected the humans' demand because from his position he knows he is obliged to respect sovereignity. Ironhide suggested the rest of the crew to beat up Optimus for his decision. There's only so far they stay on one line with each other.
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Everybody does everybody? Nooooo, you're right, that wasn't what I was getting at. Intelligent beings are capable of multiple deep relationships, despite your claim, although it can certainly go too far if care isn't made to share attention with them at least somewhat equally. But if you lay aside societal reasons (and take into account things like the Autobots and their "girlfriends" having been separated now for several million years, yikes!), it really does just make more sense. I'm certainly not an advocate of everyone just sleeping around randomly (except when it's just in character for some people, obviously). I just mean that exclusive pairings make little sense for sentient robotic lifeforms with lifespans measured in millions of years. Some might choose it, sure, but culturally mandated or even the norm? I doubt it.
Ironhide and Optimus Prime, I wasn't so much stating I see them as a relationship as having definite feelings for each other, even if those can't be expressed. Unless I'm blind, Ironhide in the cartoon had a huge crush on his boss, and Optimus was more than ordinarily fond of him in return. It's quite likely that no, they haven't done anything about this, considering their positions in the Autobot army. Then again, given how loosely structured that army seems to be, with little resembling a strict hierarchy and a heavy emphasis on personal freedom, it wouldn't utterly shock me. Nor would it surprise me to find that a Prime could have his choice of mates, long as they didn't interfere with his duties. It is, after all, good to be the king.
(There's also the whole Theban Sacred Band thing and the notion that caring more about the object of your protection might actually make you a hell of a lot more dedicated, but I won't get into that here. Think what you will, but I see the possibility there, at the very least.)
I'm more prone to shipping Optimus/Magnus than Optimus/Ironhide myself, but even that would have its problems with regards to rank, if you want to get military about it. So, yeah. It's all fiction, and there's so many different continuities and discontinuities and contradictions within continuities that "canon" is a remarkably flexible term as it applies to Transformers in general, so you could argue almost any point you want to.
Optimus/Elita? Well, it's complicated. The whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing with Orion and Ariel was all well and cute... but after they died, and were remade into almost completely different beings? The dynamic... changed. There were disturbing implications, such as Prime leaving her behind "where she'd be safe." (Oh yeah, Decepticon-ravaged Cybertron is SUCH a safe environment; besides, isn't she a warrior his equal or close to it, so why's her safety the number-one concern? Oh right, I forgot she's a girl. That's why she couldn't come along.) Then he got back, had sex with her in her sleep (I know it was to save her life, and if he hadn't made that deeply satisfied sigh, it might not've given me a slight case of the shivers as it did. Still), and then... left. Not only did he leave, but at their parting he briefly holds her hands, keeping his body far from hers, then turns and departs from the screen almost hastily. She seems a lot more thrilled to see him again and eager to keep him there than he seemed willing to stay. Again, I read a lot into these things and it's the fault of an overactive imagination, but to me, JUST to me, it looked like a lot had gone out of their relationship, that she missed him a lot more than he missed her (understandable, since a lot more time had passed for her than him since they parted), and that he was maintaining their interactions for politeness' sake. Not that he dislikes her, or that they had a nasty breakup or anything like that. Just, I dunno, maybe the changes in both of them during reformat and over the intervening years, plus other responsibilities on Optimus's head and the whole burden of being Prime, had overshadowed the relationship and they're not what they once were together. I think that would make an interesting story in itself, but I'm not likely to write it, and I have yet to see anyone else attempt such a take, though quite a few fans have expressed similar views.
As for Ironhide getting pissed at Optimus in that scene, I think anyone would. I wanted to beat the slag out of him for cooperating in that ridiculousness, without even a token argument. There were times when he crossed the line of pacifism into being a flat-out doormat for humans, even humans with relatively little actual authority (or those who were directly trying to harm him). I don't think he was actually saying "let's all beat him up" so much as "let's focus our anger where it belongs". I think he was mad at Optimus on a personal level, felt that he'd betrayed them all for the sake of the humans, and wanted to demand he take responsibility for it. It should be noted that that was the closest to mutiny he's ever gotten, and it was under very extreme circumstances -- most of the time he's loyal to the death, standing up for Optimus even when Optimus makes obvious mistakes or when the other party has a good point.
(Anyway, no one said people who love each other have to agree all the time. 
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Put like that it's more understandable. It's like that that I made the comparision to ElfQuest, because the elves in it too are pretty liberal about relationships. They have steady partners (one or two), but "Word of God" has confirmed that about any (possible) pairing between elves has happened at some point in time. It's a very interesting read in how the various individuals respond to interaction: some are pretty exclusive, others consider the more loved one, the better.
It's not blind, but a preference to interpretation. I prefer to interpret their affection as deep friendship, you as a crush. But uh, Optimus Prime is not "king". I don't recall any continuity bar post-war Marvel in which the Prime was more than the army's head honcho. Even in the cartoon, since U-Haul's death apparently went quite uncared about for for several years until war broke out anew. Possibly, he might get a more political role post-war in cartoon logic as well, but until then he is definitely not king - not even if there is war-currently no real ruling body to order him around.
I can see problems arising with Optimus/Magnus as well, but a thing it has above Optimus/Ironhide is that even outside of a relation, if anything were to happen to Magnus, Optimus has some very good reasons to do something. Ultra Magnus is a leader figure, someone the Autobots probably want back regardless of whom he's dating. A similar situation for Ironhide might be perceived as favouritism.
Orion and Ariel (and Dion - personal canon) were changed significantly by Alpha Trion's alterations. Orion used to be a pretty selfish ass before he became OP and EO lacks that cheer and naivity she had as Ariel. Suddenly they find themselves the most suited individuals to lead the frontlines against the unexpected and violent end of a golden era. Of course that's going to reflect on them and their relation, but there are no implications that happened in a bad way. Orion and Ariel had the luxury to be sweethearts, Prime and One have the obligation to each other to know when to postpone 'them' for the sake of what they stand for. They and their relation have 'matured', if you will. That scene with Optimus saying it's too dangerous is one I really want to make fun of one day. What danger exactly is he speaking of? On the assumption a retcon does not retcon more than it retcons, A.) the Autobots still left Cybertron to find fuel for the starving planet and B.) while they may have expected it, they didn't know if they would be followed by the Decepticons, and if so, by which Decepticons. So, while I admit unknown space is not the safest place, exploring it to essentially do groceries can hardly be called more dangerous than staying behind on a starving planet in a base under attack by a number of enemies that may very well heavily exceed the number of allies. The only significant danger Optimus' crew was facing was the chance of being shot square out of the sky between takeoff and departure from orbit. And in that sense, I prefer interpreting the non-specified "It's too dangerous" as "The Autobot cause is screwed if we Γ‘ll unite in one easy target."
As for Optimus Prime leaving, don't forget that offscreen they did spend time together. At least when they were rolling out to save their teams and I'd guess they were doing something together when they both weren't present when the other "couples" were having chitchat time in the new base. And remember that Optimus was needed on Earth, where Starscream and co. likely had already returned and Megatron was being a threat regardless. That's why Optimus' team stayed on Earth in the first place: to protect it against Megatron's team. He did say he wished they didn't have to part again, to which Elita was the one to respond with her obligation to continue the fight on Cybertron. So as far as I can tell, it was Optimus throwing a last effort to keep them together, whereas Elita made it clear they each had their own duties to fullfill. I disagree Optimus seemed cold or quick to leave in that scene; he wasn't acting oddly and if he was, one could just as well interpret it that he kept his distance to not make departure harder than it already was. Which is not to say there is not something decidedly odd about their relation in that scene. Optimus' "More than you'll ever know, Elita."-line just has me utterly flabberghasted. That's.. kind of a villain thing to say right before an attempt to kill someone, and I can't help but hear it morphed to Cartman's singsong voice as "I know something you don't know. I tell you so, but I'm not gonna say what." Why she doesn't react to that or what the heck was going on, beats me.
Given the context of the line, I am pretty sure Ironhide was not opposing the possibility of physical retribution. I don't disagree with him, but then again, Optimus Prime is not a figure of authority to me. And yes, this was about the only time he made a move against Optimus, which is significant to Ironhide's level of loyalty, but it also implies Ironhide is willing to quite harshly throw off that coat if his level of disagreeing is high enough, even in matters that objectively are not his to judge because he lacks the authorial perspective to do so. It's what makes Ironhide Ironhide, and I am certain Optimus appreciates him for it, but it would put a strain on a potential relation between them.
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Eh, let's just say I give both Optimus and Ironhide more credit than that. I think they could have a relationship and still put their jobs first. They're millions of years old and both very dedicated to their work. Still, while I maintain that there are feelings for each other there, I don't think they ever actually led to anything. I could see it happening, but in the context of the show alone, I wouldn't say it did.
Yeah, there was some weirdness between Optimus and Elita... I just didn't know what to think of them. I could interpret it more favorably, but the way it came off to me was not so much a romance as "we're still partners because we were once, and we still care a lot about each other, but the spark is gone." They obviously still have a great deal of concern for one another's well-being, and there's still some affection in personal interactions, but if there's passionate love and devotion, I'm not seeing it. I take that as an example of canon "telling and not showing", giving us an explicit pairing that just just doesn't work onscreen the way it's advertised. Maybe it was a writing problem more than anything.
Again, I'm more of a fan of Optimus/Magnus than Optimus/Ironhide. The latter I can only see as potential, while the former seemed like something actually came of it, judging by their interaction during Optimus's death scene (and the short-lived Season Four in which they were both in the show together). Unfortunately, we didn't see them together any more than that, which gave me a craving for the pairing that has been left largely unsatisfied -- in fandom as well. Hardly anybody writes it, let alone writes it well. As for conflicts with their roles, oh sure, there'd be plenty in theory and probably in practice, but I don't think that would stop him.
I was joking about Optimus being the king. It's a favorite line in Mel Brooks movies, loosely translating to "authority figures may have more responsibility, but they also get some nice privileges". I don't honestly see anyone telling Prime, "You can't be with this person" -- no matter who "this person" is. Let alone him backing down so easily.
(Those elves sound like the Autobots in fanfic by Starscream's Mishap. Dunno if you've ever seen any, but it is nuts. Everybody sleeps with everybody, it's a wonder they ever have time to fight a war. Not really the kind of thing I was going for, no. XP )
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*shrugs* Well, if ever you have time and curiousity, [link] . The ElfQuest comics are all put online. You can see for yourself what I fail to put in words not sounding like badfic.
You're actually getting on my "thin ice" section regarding fandom attitude here. I understand many people's reactions to various portions of fiction, most often regarding the way females are handled, but there's only so much I can hear before frowning. Elita One already is called a slut/not-slut-enough for the way she and Optimus Prime interacted, defined by some as no more than OP's love interest with no other qualities and generally bashed through other 'arguments' that would not have come up if people didn't already hate her for being OP's lady. What I have learned from my time in this fandom is that some characters under no circumstances could have done well to large portions of the audience. It doesn't matter the episode is called "The Search for Alpha Trion", introduces a very significant male character and actually makes only a very small (clumsy but needed) point of a rather significant addition to TF universe between battle between the opposing forces as we are used to. No, what matters to some is "OMG, they dared introduce a squad of (only) females! And they have horrible pastel colours and are way too curvy/not curvy at all! And, gasp, they all have boyfriends! And the whole episode is about them being saved and then snuggling up to them with all their uselessness!" The way I see it, the episode was produced on request from the network broadcasting the show to have a few females in it for once, which left the writers with an amount of conflicting demands to take care of in a very short timespan. First, the show is to promote toys, so it should feature a good amount of the regular characters. Second, it needs to introduce an x number of characters who are likely never going to come back in fiction because of the aforementioned toy promotion. Third, it needs to come up with a reason why we haven't seen chicas before (and why we might not see them again). Fourth, the story has to be good - it's this last element I can't make statements on, but find intriguing to figure out by just watching and gauging how people would have reacted if it would've been handled differently (and if it could be handled differently). The episode is actually quite filled with anti-predictability events. I won't argue your interpretation of the episode, but do consider this: if you would have written the script (under the same circumstances), how would you have handled everything? Would you have had the two snuggle up more, or would part of you wonder if that's a good idea if you want to keep a one-time character a character of its own rather than 'additional material'? When and how in the story would you have them be 'qualified in love'? It's perhaps not fair of me to ask since we don't know what profile for Elita One the writers had in mind (or fair to the writers, cuz who knows what was cut out), but it's also not fair to talk down on their interaction just like that. I mean, disregard "War Dawn" because that episode wasn't written yet: when was it said OP and EO are lovers? It never was, but the audience can make it up from the interaction between various characters throughout the episode. It's more "show than tell" to my reasoning. Similarly, I am stuck on what you mean with the word "advertised". How was this pairing ever 'advertised'?
Optimus and Magnus' interaction in the movie is my number 3 frustration right after the triviality of the deaths and the music overload. "Old friend"? "Matrix"? And then Optimus died and left a whole background storyline unfinished just when it became interesting. S4 only partly satisfied my craving for more - the thing is that I really hate OP's resurrection in S3 that happened without regards to the other deaths and at the cost of Rodimus' leadership. That dislike taints the way I look at anything relating OP in S4, even if he and UM were fun to see hanging out. Of course, I am a firm supporter of Dion=UM, so I regard "War Dawn" as some sort of interaction between them as well, and the various comics too have had their fair share of OP-UM teamup, so I don't feel like I have much right to complain. I have long given up on finding OP/UM fiction; as you said, what little there is is mostly crap. I only recall one little fic not exactly fitting in the cartoonverse, but which had Orion-Optimus and Ariel-Elita in a relation and Dion-Magnus sticking with them. A very cute read, though not exactly a prize winner. And it's the only one ever I liked somewhat.
So, if OP were to romance up some Decepticon/Quintesson/Unicron/convicted criminal of whatever species, you "don't honestly see anyone telling Prime he can't do that"? Because I think the Autobots (and possibly Decepticons/victims of the Quintessons/Primus/not criminal lifeforms) will form a chorus to tell him, and if that doesn't work, fire him (they can) and have him put away for treason (they can). Privileges come only after the responsibilities.
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No, but then I don't honestly see Prime trying to do that either (Optimus/Starscream pairings be damned, lol). I meant "within reason", but I thought that went without saying. The reason you give privileges to people in such positions is that you trust them to be responsible enough not to abuse them. If they do, well then of course both tend to get taken away. (Though "convicted criminals" could mean a lot of things, not all of which would be an automatic disqualification. I happen to have known some very nice convicted criminals.)
I'll rephrase -- if he chose an AUTOBOT partner, which would be the sensible thing to do, I don't believe people would be lining up to tell him "You can't do that", at least not without a damn good reason. If you look close enough, you can see some favoritism toward a few characters (Ironhide and Perceptor for really strong examples, the latter especially), in that his concern for them seems personal instead of "just duty." But given how much he takes his duties to heart, that doesn't mean he'll disregard the others, at all. His men are his men, regardless. They have nothing to fear if he chooses a partner from among them. I don't think you're giving him quite enough credit.
As for the pairing, not going any further into that. You're getting defensive and I didn't mean to tread on anyone's favorite. You asked, and I answered. Honestly, there's a ton of ways I could've written the script differently. Some actual conversation between them, reminiscing on old times, showing the depth of affection between them instead of just telling -- you don't need to have them "get all snuggly" or have her "be a slut" to Show Not Tell. It's called character interaction, and it can take plenty of forms, but for crying out loud at least HAVE some. Define their relationship one way or another, don't just refer to her as "Optimus's girlfriend" and expect us to nod and go "Oh, right, because she's a girl he cares about, so obviously." From the way they acted most of the episode, if I hadn't been told, I might've easily guessed that she was his sister. If the writers want to sell me a pairing, they're going to have to be more convincing. Honestly, they didn't really try, because once you SAY someone is "Optimus Prime's girlfriend", you don't have to spend a lot of time elaborating the relationship or giving it depth. Especially with a kid audience.
(And this is leaving aside my whole attitude on G1 fembots in general. An all-female squad, fine, whatever, makes as much sense as it does anywhere in fiction. And I can fanwank reasons for having "female" robots in the first place, if I REALLY want to. But the hips and lips are just too much, given how not-obviously-male the "male" robots are. And the fact that they "managed to include female characters" does not excuse the fact that they never bothered to have so much as a token female until they were pressured to. I honestly preferred monogendered robot, even if it was default male, because that was the closest they could get to gender-neutral. Introduce sexual dimorphism to a species with no need for reproduction and you get into very sticky territory when trying to decide how you divide up "male" and "female". Deciding that the girls look "girly" while the guys look... like robots, is probably NOT the best way to go. Then add the "not important enough to be main characters, but we can fit them in as a couple of characters' girlfriends" vibe because, oops, you didn't think of gender equality in the first place, and when you finally do intro a main female character, we get... Arcee. I can't even use "it was an 80s cartoon" as an excuse, because for crying out loud, the Go-Bots did it better. They had an outstanding female character on each team, character- and design-wise. Friggin' GO-BOTS.)
Try to remember, you're talking to... whatever the opposite of a canonazi is. If I don't buy it, I don't use it in fic. This makes me pretty easy to despise, and a few fans do, and it's okay if you don't like it either. But it means I pick apart canon like nobody's business, and it's not personal. I just think way too much.
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I would call myself a free-minded canonazi, if I didn't find the word "nazi" distasteful to use in such context. And truthfully, you don't seem that different to me, though I could be wrong. I reason that if I am in this fandom, it's because I like the canon and thus should respect it as it is at first glance. But that doesn't mean I believe I should follow it rigidly or not try to 'put my own twist' to it. For instance, I made semi-OCs out of the unreleased Beetra toy and un-TF'd Dorvack toy and put them among their respective teams as if it is not different in fiction. Bumper is yellow in canon, but he was meant to be white back in 1984, so I reimagine him white because it's his Γ‘nd a more unique colour (for a Minibot). Trypticon and Metroplex brainless in the cartoon but leader figures in their bio? Ehh... post-S3, both parties figured out city-sized + dumb as one of its brick = not a good combination, and upgraded them. OP/EO/UM are an item. EO can 'consume' other bots' sparks to survive her time-stopping powers and thus does not necessarily need OP to survive. "The Return of OP" didn't happen as it did. Arcee did not lose interest in Hot Rod post-Rodimus. "Autobot rebellion" should not be taken literally. Human sexism makes no sense among robots, so part of Arcee's, Roulette's and Quickslinger's bios do not exist. Transformers don't die; they go to Hawai until they run out of money and need to pick up acting again. (*cough*ShokaractisMegatronandStarscream'skid*cough*)
Well, I'm only guessing who I'm talking to. Could've just as easily been you're one of those people who argue there will be peace on Cybertron if only OP and Megatron would finally declare their ever love for each other. Points for the anti-OP/Ss.
But, sure, Optimus could try with whomever he wants within reason. I'm not saying he can't, just pointing out the higher cons of some pairings compared to others.
Hmm, much as it pains me EO/OP is not my favourite. That would be Meg/Ss. The other is close, and certainly my favoured pairing for those two, but not "the" favourite. And would you be talking about character, Yes, Elita One is one of my two favourites along Shokaract, but I didn't "flip" because of anything you said on her. I may have gone a bit defensive, didn't so much intend to, but some of the things you said didn't quite add up while you do place a rather harsh conclusion on them.
I reiterate: when was it said/refered/other way directly communicated that Elita is Optimus' partner? It was never said out loud, just implied/made clear through the episode's context. And yes, she might as well be his sister - in fact, I believe she is (though it's hardly relevant since they didn't know about AT). Same father and a same build that makes Optimus an exclusive powerdonor? I know what that sounds like in human terms, even if it wasn't (likely) always so between them. Heck, the Dreamwave comics had a resembling setup between OP and UM and therefore declared them brothers! My sincere apologies if you are one of those who reasonably deeply dislike incest pairings, but I don't feel such a thing would be a problem to robots, who don't reproduce that way.
Also, "plenty of forms of interaction" includes: mindlessly abandoning your troops to save someone you care about, sacrificing yourself to save the other's life, teaming up in battle, declaring you've missed each other and don't wish to part again. These aren't immediate hints of love, I acknowledge without a sweat, but you can't deny they had interaction that showed significant feelings between them.
May I ask how you feel about an all-three mode team or an all-same-transformation-scheme team? It's not uncommon for the fiction to put characters in teams they don't have any reason to be part of aside from a shared phyiscal trait. But I guess you said so much.
Hm, yes, you see, your perception of the females' looks is one I have seen among 50% of the complainers. Funny thing is, the other 50% complains that the females look not female at all and that there's no point in introducing females if they don't look like it. I'll get back to you on GoBots in a minute, but really I don't get the zest with which some people can declare the female designs not good in some way completely opposed by the others. Even if you hold on to that opinion, shouldn't you at least become aware of the relativity of it? Moreso, I don't see what the problem is with the designs: you may find the males not looking particular male, but again, I know others who deeply disagree with you. Should be a deviation around even that compares Optimus' torso with that of the human male. And aside from that: these are robots. They can look like whatever they want, no matter how odd it seems to us. Breasts, beards, noses, anything. What would make human female shapes forbidden to be among that? ...It is possible my opinion towards their designs is also influenced by the various Marvel-exclusive characters, who on many occassions looked of the same design type as the cartoon's females. Triton, Macabre, Flame, and many others. Compared to them, at least Chromia and Firestar look more like the toy-based regular characters of that era.
And you might wish to define "they", because the writers of the fiction sure as hell wanted to include females. Hasbro just didn't allow them to, because they didn't believe girl character toys would sell (and they may very well have been right in those days). Ratchet apparently was originallly meant to be a girl until Hasbro said "no". It's the writers of the fiction that inserted ladies like Auntie, Nightbird, Alana, Ariel, Beta, etc., who wanted females in there roughly from the start. Elita One and her team were the first to be demanded of Hasbro, to which it caved for one time. I think Arcee was a result from the same demand, though developed independently. As a movie major, she stayed, even when her toy was cancelled, and took up a space Hasbro up until then had refused to believe existed (and still occasionally does). It gave a rather sloppy fiction result, but not one in which you can say some things shouldn't have happened. They just happened a tad too late to fit seamlessly, which btw goes for a lot more in TF fiction.
Minute up: GoBots did gender better than Transformers, that is true. Tonka did better. But then again, Tonka went with an approach that left them bought out by their former competitor. I'm not saying the approach to gender is responsible to that, but it is part of a comparision between Hasbro's and Tonka's financial approaches that left the company's where they are today.
Do entertain me with what you have against Arcee. I am not a fan of her, but I feel tired with the way she is tossed around in "should be's" by the fandom.
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I pay attention to the canon for reference. Most shows/books/whatever, I'm a lot more canon-picky, even if I like to put my own fanwanking twist on some things. But Transformers isn't one story, it's a million stories. Hell, the multiverse is canon, that should tell you something about how limited it is (or rather, isn't). This is the fandom for freedom, yo. You can pick a storyline and follow it rigidly, or you can stick mostly with one but add elements of others that make sense (my usual tactic), or you can completely mix'n match and who's to stop you? I'll tell you point-blank, I have read fanfic (rare and far between, yes, blah blah, but nonetheless it exists if you care to look) that is better than ANYTHING that has ever been written for canon. Ever. The best-written Transformers canon is probably Beast Wars, and it still had plotholes you could drive the entire Autobot army through, never mind consistency -- what consistency? The primary purpose of the canon is to sell toys, and unfortunately this limits the writing of it somewhat, as does the need to make money in general. Fanworks have no such constraints. Unfortunately, they also have no quality control, so to find anything that actually does make the best of that potential, you have to wade through everyone else's Mary-Sues and crossovers and unoriginal dribble. But when you find good fanfiction, it proves on its own just how powerful fan freedom can be. So do I respect canon? Yes, when it's worth respecting. Do I worship it? No, for the same reason I consider the Bible just a book: far too much of it doesn't make any damn sense.
As to girl robots, relativity be damned. We all know why they had curves, okay? Let's not delude ourselves with fanwankery over that. The guys looked like robots, because that's what the target audience of little boys presumably wanted to see. The girls looked like girls because Hasbro could not think of a better way to say "she's a girl!" than to give them lipstick and tits. I consider myself more an equalist than a feminist, but there are times when outrage is called for, and this is one of them. (Anybody who doesn't think they look girly "enough" is snorting Pixie Stix or worse, and I will tell them so to their face.) There is no need for an in-universe explanation for fembots being fembots, and I won't even try to make one, because the meta reason is obvious. Unintentional, no-harm-meant, assumption-laden old-fashioned sexism. Probably almost completely unconscious on many of the creators' parts, too (at least I'd like to think so). With that in mind, if I choose to dig in my heels and say "Nuh-uh, no fembots for me," who can blame me? Well, you can, I'm sure. But that doesn't change the reason for my decision, so it doesn't change my decision.
Arcee had the same problems as any Token Female. She was mostly there to be a girl, not to do anything else. As far as being the girl goes, she didn't do a half-assed job. Sure, she had a love interest (since it's okay to have love interests in the show now that it's not all guys, y'see, so they had to take that opportunity), but it didn't overshadow everything too terribly, and she could handle a gun, which makes her useful at least sometimes. Still, she fit enough stereotypes to be, while not offensive to me, not interesting to me either. A disappointment if anything, otherwise she may as well have not existed, for all that she did to remedy the gender situation in Transformers.
"They" means whoever was behind the decisions, and I'm not exempting anybody, because clearly the fault lay everywhere. Hasbro didn't want girls because they wouldn't sell (thanks for the faith, guys, really), the writers may've wanted girls but they wanted them doing safely girly stuff (wow, the doctor was going to be female, what a concession! Well at least a healer has an actual role, even if it is one given so often to female characters that it's hardly a milestone), and when female robots were designed, they were laughable at best and offensive at worst if you think about it for any length of time. Really, I would've personally had less of a bee in my bonnet if they hadn't touched on the gender issues with freaking robots in the first place. And here I go ranting, so I'm gonna rein myself in before this becomes a twenty-paragraph dissertation.
(Re: Teams assembled solely for physical similarity, it depends on practicality. An all-Minibot team on a mission where fuel efficiency would be useful, that's a good idea. An all-jet team for an air mission, sure. But on the other hand, most missions benefit from diversity, so everyone on the team having similar build and abilities is very limiting. The exception is with combiners, where it helps for the robots to be as physically similar as possible in order to pull off, well, combining. Coming back to the original question, however, I can think of no earthly reason for the existence of an all-girl team, unless female robots have inherent qualities differing from males that might make them the only ones suitable for a particular mission. Mostly it just sends me uncomfortable vibes of not being able to have a mixed-gender team because the women wouldn't get as much action or screentime, which would probably have been true.)
Apologies to Wayward -- this discussion has gone on way too long and is probably killing her inbox. It started with me asking you what kind of slash writers you had a problem with and has progressed into why I'm so disappointed in the G1 fembots. At this rate, I fear we'll never come to a satisfactory resolution, given that we're both pretty set on our viewpoints. If you wish to simply discuss the matter further, you can email me. I think this thread is long enough.
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I agree on that decision. I'll note you later, when I have time. Equal apologies to Wayward for abusing her comment section like this.
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And by "Right" I mean by his standards.
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I think Shadros needs to make his own brand of dalekformers or something. They'll be like gnats compared to guys like Megatron, but it'd still be hilarious to see them running around trying to make everything right.
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*snrk* That's funny
Though I do wonder if Slash knows that his name now has certain connotations on the Internet... or if he even cares...
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Knows? Maybe. Cares? Probably not.
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*snrk* that's awesome! I know I've done that sort of deferring in the past...
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Shadow's so annoying, he's fun to to see once in a while. Hard to find a character like that.
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He got killed, then the Daleks brought him back to life.
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