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brensey — How Sly 4 should have started
Published: 2014-02-15 21:33:38 +0000 UTC; Views: 4718; Favourites: 29; Downloads: 0
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This comic was done on-the-fly and in pen while I was on a lunch break (with the text added in via photoshop after I got home). That’s why it looks rough and unpolished.Anyhoo, since I’ve complained a lot about this game , I thought it would be appropriate to show a non-snarky alternative to one of the scenes that bothered me. Specifically, Sly and Carmelita’s first scene together and the thing that sparks their conflict that lasts for most of the game.
I re-did the scene so that Sly RELUCTANTLY stole the sword because he HAD to (instead of being gleeful about going on a new heist like he was in the actual game). And when Carmelita finds him, she helps him out because he says his life is in danger. But she’s not 100% sure that he’s being truthful about needing the artifact to make the time machine work. So she gives him a warning/lecture about the potential risks of relapsing back into crime. And Sly is hurt/angry at Carmelita’s lack of trust in him. They don’t get a chance to resolve the fight before he heads to ancient Japan. So the conflict stews and carries on even after Carmelita re-enters the game. IMO, this would allow them to have romantic drama and conflict without either of them coming across as unreasonable jackasses.
EDIT: A cool person named Soothe-Belle wrote a mini-fic based on this comic! Check it out here !
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Warning! Rambling ahoy!
I thought it was lame that the forth game painted Sly as being bored with his dull life with Carmelita and secretly lusting for just one more heist. In my opinion, it diminished the nobility, romance, and character development that went along with Sly’s decision to choose a fresh start with her over his family legacy at the end of the third game.
Also, Sly came across as a selfish moron in the opening of Sly 4. Think about it. In the first scene, he finds out that yet ANOTHER evil psychopath has a hate-on for his entire family and is using time travel to erase his family’s history. Then he learns that Penelope disappeared under mysterious circumstances (and may very well have been kidnapped and/or erased from existence because of her connection to The Cooper Gang). And then he finds out that he needs to go on a heist and steal a valuable Japanese artifact behind Carmelita’s back (an action that could endanger both their relationship and her career if he screws it up) in order to set things right. And after learning ALL that, his reaction is:
“WHOO HOO! I FINALLY get to steal stuff again! This is so much better than going to cocktail parties with my boring, idiot girlfriend!”
He wasn’t feeling upset/guilty about Penelope being missing (and presumed kidnapped because of him). He wasn’t reluctant about risking his new life with Carmelita (along with Carmelita's job&reputation). And he didn’t seem to care all that much about his family history being erased. He was just stoked about being able to escape his naggy girlfriend and spend the night stealing stuff with his buddies. Not only does this not jive with how he behaved in the third game; it makes Sly come across as an unsympathetic douchebag.
As for Carmelita, I think it’s utter bullcrap that she would:
A. be fooled by the amnesia ruse and would be willing to build a relationship on a horrible, immoral lie. Or....
B. if she DID know he was lying, that she’d go along with it for YEARS simply because she was so pathetically desperate for a relationship with Sly that she was willing to let him believe she was a gullible idiot
....I'd go on. But that’s a subject I'm saving for another comic. ~_^
T
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Comments: 27
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I see your rant ramble and raise you one head-canon ramble!
I didn't really see it as Sly escaping a boring life with a boring girlfriend, but I don't really agree with the way he was portrayed in the fourth game.
Sly's a thief, no doubt about it. He comes from a long line of thieves, and has been a thief for his entire adult life. And I'm pretty damn sure there's some sort of kleptomania going on with that entire family line, hence the "itch" Sly mentioned in the opening about pulling off one more heist. It's not just some thrill for him (though it is that), it's probably more like a pull towards crime.
Not to mention that he had suddenly gone from a thief to a Constable in a relatively short period of time. The law operates very differently from the freedom of a thief. Thieves may be chased by the cops, but the cops have a lot of red tape they have to wade through to do a lot of things, along with being a law abiding citizen and doing your job by the letter of the law. There's little room for compromise when apprehending a suspect, or else they may be able to slip away with a good lawyer. I highly doubt Sly, master thief though he may be, is adequately trained or prepared for this kind of transition. I really don't think he'd operate well within the legal system and may relapse into crime out of frustration of being unable to catch criminals like he could as a thief and still get what he may feel is his just reward.
As for the lie in their relationship... yeah, I really don't know how they managed to keep the lie going for so long, if that really was the case. Maybe Carmelita kept him around because he did make a good cop, regardless of his own issues with the law and working within Interpol. Maybe she was just tired of chasing his ass around all over the world. Or maybe she really did love him and enjoy his company, and felt that she could make it work. Hell if I know.
I think that the two really did love each other, and tried to make it work, but it was just too much of a change for Sly, and Bentley's news did not help. There were a lot of ways to improve the beginning of Sly 4, but I still think it managed its job well enough to convey a point and kickstart the story. (Also, Sly isn't always known for mature decision making....)
Ramble ramble ramble NONSENSE! My favorite part of late night postings. Either way, I really like the situation you presented in your comic, and your artwork is nice to look at too. If we did have to change the story's beginning, this is the way I'd like to see it go.
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Where the heck did that question come from!? O_o
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.....Huh. Makes sense. But then she wouldn't have stumbled on that skunk guy and be sent back in time right?
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I think this conversation could have happened in the same amount of time as the short argument they had at the beginning of Sly 4.
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Honestly, I can see Sly having an itch - genuine kleptomania - that's gnawing at him constantly. I do agree that he was just a little too eager to jump back in, though part of the issue is that we don't even have a definitive canon answer to even how long it had been between Sly 3 and Thieves in time. Months? Years? Was Sly with the cops the whole time, or did Interpol decide to let him go because they really didn't like the idea of effectively brainwashing someone into working for them? I mean, they felt a LOT of bad PR from the Contessa and since Neyla was shot down I could easily see Interpol not wanting to risk the bad PR when its revealed they more or less brainwashed a guy to work for them. I mean, Sly's a free spirit and for a lot of his life thieving was what he was raised around - up till Clockwerk showed up be was being groomed to be the next master thief of the Cooper line. Then in the orphanage, he bonded with Bentley and Murray to steal cookies from cruel sitters. By the time he reached his adult life he was more or less used to it so I could easily see him never realizing he was a kleptopmanic.
Then when he has to keep that suppressed, I could see Sly slowly realizing that there's a genuine psychological condition - that his itch to steal wasn't just living up the family name which he more or less did by the time of the Cooper Vault heist - and struggling with that. He's used to pulling heists (though, oddly, even in Sly 1 you see him doing stuff like the aftermath of beating Muggshot apparently showed him making off with those floor stars in Hollywood and similar despite the claimed 'only steal from other thieves') and generally having his fate in his own hands entirely. I mean, Sly had a good reason to leave the team - he saw Bentley and Penelope with each other an when he thought he was going to die he genuinely regretted not being honest with Carmelita entirely and sticking to his usual playful flirting.
Honestly, I feel like Thieves in Time had a lot of good concepts, but there's parts where they just dropped the ball and dropped it hard. I mean, some make sense. Penelope's betrayal could make sense given that we never learned much of her overall goals in Sly 3 and we effectively met her in a dogfighting competition where you blow people out of the sky. Then she has her eyes on Sly and what happens when LeFwee captures her? Sly more or less says "Okay, back to the boat" and its Bentley reassuring her rather than Sly. Now, Sly does say "We don't have any options here", but from Penelope's (terrified out of her wits - she has a sword to her throat/back/whatever) view, Sly just left her to die and it was Bentley who pulled the gang back around to rescue her later. Sly also, from the team's view, more or less bailed on them. Now, he left them a huge going away present - the vault itself - but he still basically flaked. Then take what Doctor M said about his relationship with Sly's dad (which was implied to be less brotherly then it is between Sly, Murray, and Bentley): Time does funny things. Time... time goes on and the chinks that Sly left in her admiration of him and his honor among thieves gnaws away. My guess is at some point during this, Le Paradox started talking to her and playing mind games. But other parts like Sly leaping back into his career were either poorly explained, or executed badly. Though, it seems they had something bigger in mind for Penelope given her epilogue is "breaks out of jail, sends Bentley postcards of various things she's up to"
Less said about Carmelita getting a fanservice makeover and having what, three sections where you actually play as her?, the better. I mean, some of it makes sense. Captured by Le Paradox? Gas grenades, like those used to make sure Sly didn't recover Rioichi's cane. Toothpick? Nailed by Outside Context Problems in the form of time travel all of a sudden, and maybe suddenly being surrounded by a bunch of goons with chainguns with no cover - or even in melee already to dogpile her in raw strength. Its not unbelievable that she could get captured, but the rest of the fanservice and overall sexualization just didn't work out. I mean, she was always fanservice to a degree but it was always subdued and played second fiddle to her being an Interpol agent. Though I doubt Interpol was much bugged about Carm's actions during her time travel - outside context problem and the Coopers generally stay minimally lethal in their actions and even help deal with greater threats overall, plus she never did anything within the statue of limitations (IIRC, there's a certain amount of time a crime can remain in the air before the case is closed, and given the latest adventure that the team went on was in the Old West, I'd say her train job and jailbreak was 'expired'). Plus, it was her only way back to the present as the other route was to literally join the criminal she was investigating and why would he help her get back to the present?
As to the amnesia itself, I always liked the "Time to Talk" ( sariels-hope.deviantart.com/ar… ) fan comic interpretation of his amnesia: Sly did have genuine amnesia (he was hit hard multiple times), but it was very temporary and at worst he needed to be reminded what happened. He then took the chance for a new life, but slowly over time he's starting to feel old instincts. I just wish they portrayed Sly being uneasy about a full descent into thievery and was more using his skills to save his heritage - which is something very important to him. No idea how Interpol got over the idea of Carmelita and Sly being together, honestly... I really just hope Interpol figured out that Sly was playing along with the amnesia and saw Carmelita as just trying to avoid traumatizing a guy who just got amnesia or not having the heart to cart a guy who doesn't remember what he did wrong to jail, then decided to see if some reform could work. I don't remember any amnesia immunity legally but I could see Interpol wanting some quiet good press, especially to contrast with the Contessa. She mindraped people, Interpol tries to delicately handle an unfortunate situation and try to get some reformation out of it.
Though, I've honestly liked the idea of the Cooper gang slowly becoming freelancers for Interpol - never officially, but as guy on the other side who are happy to help Interpol bust the big guys. Interpol gets the arrests, Sly and the team pull off heists worthy of the Thievious Racoonis. And in exchange, Interpol looks the other way on smaller things and while technically still gunning for Sly, he's not a priority. Sort of taking how Carmelita would always bust the guys Sly goes after instead of getting him, but on a larger scale and not quite as seriously trying to bust him. With the obvious caveat that Sly needs to reign in on his thefts and stick to genuine bad guys and nothing like his "R&R" between game levels (such as the aforementioned Hollywood)
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Thanks for your input. You made some great points!
As to the amnesia itself, I always liked the "Time to Talk" fan comic interpretation of his amnesia
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No idea how Interpol got over the idea of Carmelita and Sly being together, honestly... I really just hope Interpol figured out that Sly was playing along with the amnesia and saw Carmelita as just trying to avoid traumatizing a guy who just got amnesia or not having the heart to cart a guy who doesn't remember what he did wrong to jail, then decided to see if some reform could work.
Funny you should mention the "Time to Talk" comic. I really liked that one, too. And it inspired my own take on how I think Sly and Carmelita dealt with the "amnesia" in the aftermath of the third game. My comic also had my theory on how Sly avoided being arrested by Interpol while living with Carmelita.
Check it out here if you'd like . I'd love to get your two cents on it.
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Oh I just realized one more thing. Your scene has a problem too not because it bad but the question is how long would the scene take? If it takes too long Cyrille would have found the two thanks guards and Carmelita and Sly would be in trouble.
That's kind of why Sly dashed out, he had no time to talk to Carmelita. But as you can see in the game it did eat his conscience and he wanted to do everything in his power to make up with her.
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Yeah, I'm- 100% wholly behind this idea. It always kind of irritated me that Sly somehow got bored of you know- the life he honestly wanted. Sly 3 pretty clearly painted the fact he was getting tired of thieving and what came with it. The rush wasn't enough when he saw how happy Penelope and Bentley actually were.
It's super frustrating since, damn it undermines everything Sly 3 set up and the idea of Sly giving up his past and Carmelita pretty literally putting her job on the line to likely keep Sly safe from being thrown in the slammer. This doesn't count the fact the two had to you know, restart their relationship from scratch entirely. They actually had to get to know each other again outside of that Thief VS Cop mentality their whole relationship had a basis in. That's not counting them hashing out the basic ruse they made up to get Sly off that island.
SO YEAH, A & B are problematic as alllll hell.
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Yeah, I'm- 100% wholly behind this idea. It always kind of irritated me that Sly somehow got bored of you know- the life he honestly wanted. Sly 3 pretty clearly painted the fact he was getting tired of thieving and what came with it.
Sly still feeling “the itch” to pull off another heist with his friends wouldn’t bother me so much if he hadn’t also COMPLETELY disregarded the risk to Carmelita’s career and the fact that Penelope was likely in danger because of him.
Heck, Sly feeling a slight longing for his old life whenever things are less-than-perfect with Carmelita would have been an interesting character conflict in the hands of more skilled writers. But instead they just painted it as Sly being a whiny brat who was unsatisfied with his “dull” life of going to posh cocktail parties with his gorgeous girlfriend.
The rush wasn't enough when he saw how happy Penelope and Bentley actually were.
*sigh* It kills me that so many people miss this crucial little detail about how big an impact Penelope’s presence had on the team (and on Sly’s ultimate decision to give up his family wealth in order to give himself and his team mates a fresh start). Bentley wasn't the only person she had a significant impact on and the fourth game (and a lot of fans) just chose to ignore it!
It's super frustrating since, damn it undermines everything Sly 3 set up and the idea of Sly giving up his past and Carmelita pretty literally putting her job on the line to likely keep Sly safe from being thrown in the slammer. This doesn't count the fact the two had to you know, restart their relationship from scratch entirely. They actually had to get to know each other again outside of that Thief VS Cop mentality their whole relationship had a basis in
I'm actually working on a comic that details my head-canon regarding how Sly&Carmelita worked out the amnesia thing and how it would actually work out to keep Sly out of jail. I'm hoping to finish it soon.
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The only thing I don't like about 'the itch' is Sly suddenly not thinking about consequences when it happens. So, fft, yeah, we agree on that for sure. He was a master thief and then police officer, he is not a dumb guy, he'd have to think logically about this shit.
I would have honestly prefered the idea of them arguing a little and him going MAN WASNT IT BETTER WHEN- cause, you're right, that would be WAY better character conflict. Along with a good way to set up more reasons as to why Sly and Carmelita would be further upset with each other during the game.
I just- wonder if people were actually paying attention or what?? I MEAN, Sly narrates about this stuff. He doesn't exactly spell it out slowly but he more or less states how he's feeling about everything in his narration. This includes how much of an effect Penelope had on the whole team. How she changed things for the better and made Sly think more clearly about what he wanted.
I hope you do! I'd love to see it!
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I can't say I agree with you but I respect it. I agree more with sonicgirl313. But Carmelita's bellydance could have ben different.
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yeah that what the game should started so she can't be:
Can't get kidnapped by toothpick.
Can't get kidnapped by Le Paradox.
Never get trapped behind two Castle Gates.
and also never NEVER get trapped in the glass container with sly.
Because four of these scenes from Sly cooper thieves in time Offended me and it should have being Illegal for the developers to release this shit load of fuck scenes onto the game so like seriously brensey give me a reason why would they do that to murray sir galleth cooper Sly cooper and Carmelita why did the game developers did this to them because THAT FUCKING BULLSHIT!!!!
also if you want to know about my worst sly cooper scenes ever Go check on my gallery and type My top 5 worst sly cooper scenes ever!
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Now you shouldn't be offended by Camrelita being captured by Cyrille because of one thing. Okay I will admit even I questioned how a skilled fighter like Carmelita could be defeated by Cyrille since he wasn't as skilled. Then I remembered something, remember how his own guards have to wear gas the guy. Who's to say he didn't use his stench? It's silly but plausible.
How could have Galleth got ruint when we didn't even know his personality at all at first, in other words his vision couldn't be ruint. The correct phrase would be he didn't act like how you always pictured him to act.
Okay I'm sorry but the gate excuse is ridiculous. For crying out loud she didn't have time to completely formulate a plan, she had to act on spot have been killed.
As for whole Toothpick thing my best guess is that she was caught off guard. It is silly but then again in Sly 3 Carmelita somehow never did notice the Blue Viper gang and she actually thought General Tsao was Sly when it should have been more obvious to her.
As for the glass container... you must have really hated that scene in Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racconus where she was captured and imprisoned in a crystal by Clockwerk so she could used a bait for Sly. Eh it's only happened twice so it's fine... unless Sanzaru goes overboard with it getting ridiculous.
Also I wouldn't use the word offended, I would use the word hated or disliked, fits better.
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yeah that Energy cage in sly cooper and the thievious raccoonus and the glass container in sly cooper thieves in time
and yeah you are correct I HATED IT!!!! sometime i just think that these both in the glass container is not sly or Carmelita
all i think of was Jason russell and joseph kony get paid by Cyrille le paradox to do all the dirty work against sly and carmelita by using kidnapping scene and trap scenes and they also got paid by Penelope and Toothpick against sir galleth cooper and Murray too WHY DO THEY KEEP FUCKING DOING THAT ON THIEVES IN TIME!!!!
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Well I actually didn't believe Sly acted like a jerk at all and I never got the impression that he wanted to play by his own rules. If I were him I would also consider it refreshing to finally return to my old roots that I had to avoid. As for the amnesia thing you got to remember the end of Sl3, Sly was hit pretty hard and the possibility of amnesia is logical. Also let's not forget Carmelita did get food by Sly's acts before. Now as for the possibility of her figuring at she could have played along because she liked the idea of Sly making change for her but she never did think about herself about how it would affect Sly. That's why I love in the Ice Age area where e learned that Sly can try to bend the rules but in the ends he can't leave his roots but the question for herself is that if she can bend the rules for him, she has shown to do it quite a few times before but not a lot.
Also Sly probably didn't worry too much about Penelope because he didn't want to assume the worse like the many examples how he tried to calm down Bentley. He showed an example of this when in Sly 2 when Murray was missing he just calmed Bentley down and said that he'll see where he was, not assuming the worse. Sly doesn't look on the worse side of things a lot, hence why the Contessa was having difficulty when she was trying to break his spirit. Also Sly was worried about his family history vanishing why else would he always try to find the quickest way to save them.
I have many reasons to defend this game. I respect your opinion and I can understand some people's complaints (*cough* Penelope *cough*) but I think the game is still very good. Does it have too many puns, sure. Was the plotline with Penelope stupid, yes. Did they go overboard with Camrelita's dancing, slightly but I prefer that than seeing another Murray dancing segment. *shudder* But in the end I still consider it a great game. Eh I hope I answered some questions but if you don't agree that's okay, we'll agree to disagree and to respect each other. ^^
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And how Carmelita acted sooo fuckin mad at Sly for 'lying' about the whole Amnesia thing, I believe she would understand that Sly needs to do this, he needs to go back and save his family. It's important
I mean, technically Carmelita also lied to Sly, by telling him that he was her Deputy or something? ((I can't exactly remember, but still!))
That's just as bad.
Yeah. Sly 4 didn't have the best writing, it really just felt like Fanon instead of Canon.
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Constable, actually, but yeah. It felt like it was put together on a whim.
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Now I see what that Let's Player meant when he said that Sly acted like a jerk in the game. And here I thought people were just overreacting, but you actually have a point in this. Thank you.
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While I'm not 100% sure that the comic you made would make a good alternative, I must say that I agree 100% with your 'ramblings ahoy' paragraphs 
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nice. Can't to see YOUR version of Thieves in Time soon. Come to think of it, I think your version is better than the actual game.
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Aww, you're sweet.
Sadly, I don't have time to re-write my own version of the entire game. So these scattered comics/doodles will have to suffice.
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