HOME | DD

cme In reply to XianJaguar [2005-02-18 01:30:13 +0000 UTC]

Yeah evolution is bunk..what irks me about it is the fact that a bunch of arrogant mortal humans who haven't seen it happen with there own eyes are trying to have me believe it's true.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

cme In reply to Xbalanque [2005-01-13 07:08:38 +0000 UTC]

I tried to believe it..trust me. I even wanted to at one point in my life..but like the Bible says *and I need to find the verse XD* only a fool says in his heart there is no God...for the glory of creation screams of a creator *Those were my own words not exact quote but that's what it's basically saying* I look at everything in life and being an artist myself know there has to be a design behind it a designer Everything is made so perfect for a reason and in it’s own way I know there has to be intelligence behind it all not just a random explosion or act of nature..and who made nature? Itself? No furthermore I came into a relationship with this creator through the word of the Bible so therefore I know that I know evolution is false.. *Phew* with that said hope it answers your question X3

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Xbalanque In reply to cme [2005-01-13 08:06:58 +0000 UTC]

Oh, I see now. Yes, I can understand where you're coming from. With this in mind, I'd like to clarify a few things.

Science as a whole has its limits. One of the greatest is that it cannot guage things of the spiritual planes. This is the main reason that science has remained secular. Sound scientific research requires repeated testing and conclusions based on data (This is the reason that evolutionary theory has lasted so long; all scientific data so far still supports the main points of Darwin's thesis and more so, and no plausible alternative explanation has come forward that can stand up to scientific scrutiny.). Once one tries to invoke God or spirits in order to explain something, the study has lost its objectivity and because it can't be tested or proven it becomes a matter of faith. Thus, God is kept out out of the picture in order to remain objective.

Second, like many faiths, many people put too much faith in science alone. In the old days, religion was the only way to explain things. However, as scientific inquiry developed, many things came to be explained by more logical phenomena. This combined with a series of revolutions in Europe (targeting religions) and a few explosive periods of scientific innovation led to a growing number of atheists in Western culture. Sadly, because of previous and ongoing sins committed by various religious groups, there is a growing trend in the West of people unwilling to accept any kind of religion. These people instead believe that science can explain everything, that there is no driving force, no purpose. Worse, these individuals have permiated academia and many of them are supremely arrogant.

I could go on much further; I'm a zoology major and creationism is one of my pet peeves. But don't get me wrong. I'm a Christian too, and I concur: (I don't mean to offend any atheists out there, but) only a fool can look upon the universe and deny a guiding force, a design. The complexity of it all, the harmonius balance between order and chaos, the processes of the natural world...I cannot imagine that they happened by chance(which we now know isn't nearly as big a factor in evolutionary processes as once thought). But the other extreme doesn't help either. Creationism can't explain anything, only parrot variations of a dogma that goes back to the Dark Ages, one that can't stand up to sound scientific scrutiny. Some creationists would have you believe that dinosaurs(in the non-avian, extinct sense) never even existed (I actually heard a televagelist say this once-to be honest, he sounded high on his own voice).

The way I see it, evolution actually speaks of a designer. What better system for the long-term survival of life in a dynamic, ever-shifting world than to have it adapt over the course of generations? Those with the genes best suited survive(not counting other mitigating circumstances), and those who don't survive sustain the other species around them with their flesh. As the climate changes, species split into new species or go extinct. Extinction itself (when not brought about by human activity) is actually a creative process, openning up a new environmental niche wherein a new species can move in and perhaps give birth to a new species. And one sees in this system of evolutionary emergence, divergence, and extinction a refrain of a pattern that repeats itself over and over in this universe: the unending cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. And the sytem works.

On a final note before I end this dialogue, consider this: You are clearly a woman of your faith. But ask yourself, does evolution have any bearing whatsoever on who Jesus was/did? And which seems a more logical, all powerful deity given the way our universe works:
1)one that haphazardly magicks up the universe in a week, only to wipe out 99.97% of the planet's biodiversity(most of which couldn't have managed to coexist simultaneously anyway) a couple centuries later in a global flood (of which there is no real evidence), a god that messes with scientific instruments in order to deliberately decieve us(an actual creationist belief, sad as it is)?
...or...
2)one that takes meticulous care in creation, an incredibly subtle timeless being whose handiwork can usually only be seen with the passing of eons, one who uses consistent patterns allowing his inquistive children to expand their understanding of his creation, even going so far as allowing them to trace their ancestry(on an evolutionary scale)?

You have your faith, my sister. But do not let the arrogance of fools put limits on your mind. God gave us these cognitive minds for a reason. Let logic rather than emotion guide your conclusions.

Xbalanque

PS: to cme only: If you wish to continue this discussion, please send me some notes. I still have much to learn about evolutionary theory myself, but I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have as best I can or give you references.

👍: 0 ⏩: 2

cme In reply to Xbalanque [2005-01-13 23:04:45 +0000 UTC]

What I don’t believe mainly in the theory of evolution is that we came from animals. I do however believe in Natural selection. I believe we are infact devolving where man was once perfect before the fall now has a shorter life span and the genetic structure of humanity is tainted. Trust me I went nuts trying to figure it all out..and found out you can’t there are so many things neither the Bible nor science can explain and I choose to leave it at that rather than try to understand everything *which we can’t anyway* And yes I’m an emotional person (most artist are ) but I don’t let my emotions guide me in my beliefs because there are just something’s in life that are illogical to us humans but perfectly formed for by God for reasons that will always be unknown to us. So I don’t bother or care to discuss the issue I stick with what matters in the end..God sent his son to die for us..that’s all that matters I can’t change the mind of others nor have my mind changed in back and forth discussions on evolution and faith. ..that and it does nothing for me! ..really it won’t do anything for me knowing it all when I die. XD

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Xbalanque In reply to cme [2005-01-13 23:31:08 +0000 UTC]

Hmmmmm. Your response actually reflects a recent trend in America's public education system. Evolutionary theory (not the phenomenon itself) is a complicated topic, and one that has seen various major developements in recent years. This combined with a similar trend of Fundamentalist Christian Creationists (a uniquely American phenomena; Europe is laughing at us) has contributed to evolution only being taught in the most cursory fashion, usually with outdated materials. In other words, if the topic is complicated or contravercial, it is far easier to avoid it than to consider. Sadly, bad scientific education has left the masses ignorant and prone to the gold-plated, deceptive tongues of charlatans claiming to be scientists.

However, as one man once said (I can't recall his name and I'm paraphrasing), "If God created man, he went well out of his way to make him look like an ape." All the geologic, genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. evidence indicates that humans are descended from an ancestral ape line that gave rise to Hominids and the Great Apes (makes more sense than a literal reading of early Genesis). Though I won't continue this line for your sake, you are right that these things don't matter. Regardless of evolutionary pedigree, God made us and loved his deviant children enough to take a human body for his avatar in order to return them to him.

You and I differ in many ways. You are willing to accept the world as it is handed to you. I on the other hand constantly ask questions (seeking to understand your reasoning behind your pic's caption, for example). While it may not matter to you, I seek to expand my understanding of the natural world; it's true that the few answers I recieve only spawn new questions, but I relish it. While I can't know everything (at least on this plane), I can content myself that things will become clear after passing the threshold of death. In the meantime, I have my diversions.

Peace be with you, my sister.

Xbalanque

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Daimera In reply to Xbalanque [2005-01-13 08:52:01 +0000 UTC]

Wow, that's quite in depth. I've heard a lot of it before, though. I'll just stick to my faith.

You mentioned that I was in for a bumpy ride for being a Creationist taking Marine Biology as a major... But to be perfectly honest, evolutionary theory is very interesting to study for me, which is why I didn't steer away from a biology-based major to begin with: I just don't like it when professors tell me (indirectly) that I'm an ignorant fool for believing what I believe. I have no problem learning what they want me to learn, and I take the classes part out of requirement for the major, and so that I know what they WANT me to believe so I can work with that kind of people when I decide to persue a job, AND because it's, well, interesting!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Xbalanque In reply to Daimera [2005-01-13 09:17:54 +0000 UTC]

Ignorant? Perhaps. A fool? No.

As you can see, I don't think science and faith need to be so diverse. However, I learned long ago that complacency in one's faith (or lack of it) can be very dangerous. Believe what you will, but do not be so stubborn in your belief that you blind yourself to reality. Rather, consider the data you have, make a conclusion on that, and be willing to reconsider your stance should the new data arise.

Search for the truth if you be so inclined, and don't be afraid of what you may find along the way.

Peace be with you, my sister.

Xbalanque

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

cme In reply to SeskiLexi [2004-08-15 06:17:45 +0000 UTC]

it's like a parrot meets Utah raptor(dino) ^_^

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

SeskiLexi In reply to cme [2004-08-15 06:41:03 +0000 UTC]

Ah. Cool. If I know what an archeoptrix is (if not how to spell it) wouldn't I know what a utah raptor is...?

They say that they were discovered right around the time people were screaming at Spielberg about his raptors not being like real raptors... And they were like his. o.o creepy.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

cme In reply to scolexchikin [2004-08-12 06:07:22 +0000 UTC]

who/what is sooty?..... yay evolution haters unite! ^^

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

scolexchikin In reply to cme [2004-08-12 06:24:51 +0000 UTC]

Sooty is muh pet cheekin. :0 And YES. Let the hating conteenue.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

cme In reply to scolexchikin [2004-08-12 06:45:59 +0000 UTC]

pet chicken! cute! I can ramble on and on about chickens! my Neighbors chicken stories...but I won't ^^'

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

scolexchikin In reply to cme [2004-08-12 07:04:20 +0000 UTC]

Awww. D: Chicken stories are always amusing. :3

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

cme In reply to scolexchikin [2004-08-12 07:06:55 +0000 UTC]

I'll post one up in my journal or a pic or something sometime X3

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Xbalanque In reply to Daimera [2005-01-13 08:23:42 +0000 UTC]

Mobbed? Beaten? Most of the professors I know would just calmly debate with you.

Xbalanque

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Daimera In reply to Xbalanque [2005-01-13 08:31:29 +0000 UTC]

Ohoh! You're LUCKY. The profs I had in Oceanography were all "IF YOU ARE CHRISTIAN AND BELIEVE IN CREATIONISM YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FOOL WHO SHOULDN'T BE IN THIS CLASS MUCH LESS IN SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH." They didn't say it outright like that, but they constantly bashed (and literally insult-bashed) Christianity and its followers in, like, every lecture they gave. Yeah, it's wrong to label a majority of the scientific community based off of them, but considering that was my first science-based class of my college life, it hasn't left a good impression. I'll probably meet more of them as I continue my Marine Bio major...

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Xbalanque In reply to Daimera [2005-01-13 08:34:39 +0000 UTC]

A Creationist in Marine Bio? I'm afraid you're in for a bumpy ride.

Outta curiosity, why do you reject evolution? (If answer is arrogance of atheistic professors, please see my response to cme at the end of this thread)

Xbalanque

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Daimera In reply to Xbalanque [2005-01-13 08:43:12 +0000 UTC]

Part of it is just fundamentalist upbringing (I'm not fundamentalist myself, but I was raised that way). Some of it is how some of it doesn't make sense to me, with bits of evolutionary theory being contradictory with evidence presented (for example, if evolution takes millions of years, why aren't there millions of years of 'transitional' fossils in the fossil record of creatures going from form to form, as opposed to a chain of 'final' products? Among other things, I don't feel like arguing. I'm horrid at arguing, anyway).
I'll check out that response now.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Xbalanque In reply to Daimera [2005-01-13 09:08:48 +0000 UTC]

Well, there are a lot of things to take into account. We now know that evolution can take as much as several million years to only a few thousand depending on these factors. Hell, in Santa Barbara, we've got the early stages of evolutionary divergence going on in the Coal Oil Point Plover Preserve.*

As for your question regarding "transitionary forms," every single species alive or in the fossil record IS a transitionary species. Further, the whole linear evolution leading up to a finished product is a common misconception: the process is branching rather than linear (a parent species often survives contemporaneously or even survives longer than the daughter species) and from a scientific standpoint at least, there is no end product (only adapting to current condition through a combination of behavioral adaptation, genetic variety within a species, and natural selection).

I recommend you read "Science on Trial" by Douglas Futuyma. It's a bit dated (it was published before this recent wave of feathered dinosaurs was discovered) but it cleared up a lot of questions for me.

Xbalanque

*The endangered Western Snowy Plover has recently taken to nesting at that beach. There are 2 groups of plovers, ones that stay on the beach year round, and those that migrate from inland during the winter (the plover mating season no less). What's most interesting though is that the coastal population, while all but identical to the inland population, REFUSES TO MATE WITH THE INLAND BIRDS (keep in mind they're monitored constantly and all the nests are marked). Here we see the first tentative stages of divergence, the splitting of one species into two. This sort of thing happens all the time from an evolutionary standpoint.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

cme In reply to Daimera [2004-08-11 23:08:17 +0000 UTC]

*defends you from the pack of nerds* nehe X3

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

cme In reply to Daimera [2004-08-11 23:08:15 +0000 UTC]

*defends you from the pack of nerds* nehe X3

👍: 0 ⏩: 0