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flabaflaba123 In reply to KatelynnTheG [2011-03-02 03:19:35 +0000 UTC]

Wait....

Where does it hint at here might having a crush on Zim? That never happens..

I'm pretty sure she is completely aloof when it comes to Zim.

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KatelynnTheG In reply to flabaflaba123 [2011-03-02 05:16:38 +0000 UTC]

I'm referring too the bloatys pizza hog episode ya' know the part where both of the escape pods collide and Gaz was all "hello thar~" and ZiM was all "What the-? go the hell away!!!" they didnt really say that though,it was more like body-lanuage

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Dibsthe1 In reply to DefectiveChelsea [2010-02-24 20:41:51 +0000 UTC]

Interesting!

My vote is for the personal gain. I'm always amazed when anyone mentions that possibility and this episode in the same paragraph. Making a case that she cared in the least about Dib is an even bigger reach in GTOP than it usually is. None of what he endured to make it up to her and undo the spell made the slightest lick of difference to her.

Yes, it took me a while, but I eventually noticed just HOW ambiguous her actions were in "NanoZim," even mentioned it in my profile on FFN. It would have been nice to see that potential of Gaz explored more often in fanfiction, but more often it offers a one-dimensional monster and bewildering reviews that coo over how much this means she "cares." Huh? How much would they say Dib is "caring" if he was doing that to her?

IF, and I emphasize the IF, Gaz feels anything but loathing and contempt for Dib she is keeping it well hidden. Add her reclusiveness to that, and you're absolutely right when you say that sort of character is very difficult to write. A vicious, vindictive gorgon, however, lies within anyone's abilities to describe. Unfortunately.

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DefectiveChelsea In reply to Dibsthe1 [2010-02-24 21:34:49 +0000 UTC]

I do say that Gaz keeps her softer side hidden well. If it was possible that the show still continued, maybe more of her feelings would have shown besides loathing. Her character would have been something like a tsundere, bitchy at first, then caring the next. I bet this is how people who write fanfics about Gaz portray her as.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to DefectiveChelsea [2010-02-27 14:51:56 +0000 UTC]

... so well hidden that it can't be seen. In the fics it all looks just bitchy to me.

I had been going to say something on the other topic; they do need the opposition the other provides. One can need all sorts of things without having any liking or affection for them... like a JOB for one.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to JoeMerl [2009-11-10 20:48:39 +0000 UTC]

You CAN? When did this happen? (Wait, wait, let me guess... about five minutes after I got a sub. )

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JoeMerl In reply to Dibsthe1 [2009-11-10 22:00:59 +0000 UTC]

No, just the last day or two, I think...some sort of movie promotion or something weird like that. Only lasts until the end of the 29th, I believe.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to The-Humble-Jester [2009-02-09 20:56:56 +0000 UTC]

Of course the show was trying to be more complex than the usual run of the mill animated fare, and its characters are seldom all bad and even less often all good. If I could use one phrase to describe the show's two main characters, it would in fact be "morally ambiguous."

The trouble is that people persist in seeing it in simple terms of black vs white, good vs evil. It still staggers me how people will fixate on the less than pious aspects of Dib and vilify him... even as Gaz's sheer undiluted selfishness is explained away or ignored entirely.

That side of Dib lends him depth and texture, and brings him closer to realism than many of us want to admit. What we do for others, we do because first and foremost, it makes us feel good ourselves. Why do some people buy and donate new toys to total strangers at Christmas? Because making children happy makes them happy. Why do other people feed stray cats? Because that's how much they like cats. Does this negate the good intentions?

Now, there is self-interest present in Dib's efforts, true. Sometimes he enjoys this hunt entirely too much; I can certainly agree there. Still, wanting to vindicate himself is rather understandable considering the amount of rejection flung at him for the crime of Not Being Exactly Like Everybody Else. Now compare this to the one who lives eats drinks sleeps and breathes selfishness. She never benefits anybody but herself and she has no interest whatsoever in doing so. If she could assist someone by getting out of her own way she'd just sit there... unless there was a video game or pizza in it for her. Rub her the wrong way and the retribution will be more appropriate for an attempt on her life.

It sounds like you're suggesting it's possible Gaz thrashes people to get attention; the difference is that when she does this it's okay... but if it's Dib doing something along the same lines for a similar reason, suddenly it's not okay somehow.

My personal theory is that Dib is taking out on Zim the aggression he won't/can't show towards that fist happy control freak, Gaz... because she's only his poor little helpless little baby sist-

If Dib succeeds, some benefit will come to somebody else... in Dib's own mind at least; if Zim himself doesn't know his mission is fake, then how is Dib supposed to know?

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The-Humble-Jester In reply to Dibsthe1 [2009-02-09 22:55:36 +0000 UTC]

I think you over-glorify Dib, despite his flaws, in a similar way that you despise others for glorifying Gaz for her flaws. I can understand why, to be honest; sometimes I loathe characters everyone else loves even more, simply for the fact that everyone else loves them.

"Does this negate the good intentions?"

Ah, that comes with the assumption that he truly has good intentions in his actions. He may believe he does, but I tend to not see good intentions when one wants an autopsy video named after him.

I cannot compare it to buying someone a gift. Being happy because someone else is happy is not the same as Dib's actions. He has much more questionable motives than making someone happy.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily villifying him. I'm pointing out that you may translate him in such a way that is too... above him.

"It sounds like you're suggesting it's possible Gaz thrashes people to get attention; the difference is that when she does this it's okay... but if it's Dib doing something along the same lines for a similar reason, suddenly it's not okay somehow."

It's not okay for either of them.

However, I take special offense at Dib's, because he sometimes (or often) portrays himself as fighting for good.

If I may use an analogy you may not be familiar with: The Devil's Rejects.

Granted, Baby, Otis, and Captain Spaulding--and other members of their murderous family--are undeniably evil in their actions. I don't deny this. Otis, himself, says that he does the devil's work.

However, the "law" who seeks to eradicate their sins does many ghastly things and he inspired my hatred in seconds, because he was just as evil wearing a cloak of righteousness. I hated him more than I could have hated any other character in that movie for it. It inspired a great desire to see the villains triumph over him, for there was at least clarity and honesty in what they did - they made no justifications for their actions. They wanted to, they acknowledged the evil, they didn't care.

But they didn't act as if they were on my side of the moral spectrum.

I digress. It is merely a special pet-peeve of mine to hate foul action in the guise of good a thousand times more than foul action in a foul form.

"My personal theory is that Dib is taking out on Zim the aggression he won't/can't show towards that fist happy control freak, Gaz... because she's only his poor little helpless little baby sist- "

I think your personal theory is seen through your lens, not really the show as it was written.

If I were to make a theory, I would state that Zim is Dib's self-validation to the world. They can't call him crazy if he proves he's better than them. They have to love him, or respect him, or bow to him, or at least acknowledge him in some favorable light if he saves them.

Zim is proof to Dib that he was right. For all Dib sees, Zim treats him as a threat. It makes him feel important.

It goes beyond some piddly sibling aggression.

"If Dib succeeds, some benefit will come to somebody else... in Dib's own mind at least;"

At least, as you interpret Dib's mind. Perhaps he truly believes he's doing it, in part, for others. However, I severely doubt his intentions are anything more than a desperate need for validation that I both despise in him and pity in him. He is a tragedy in himself.

I think you give Gaz too little credit and Dib too much, because of some of the morons in the fanbase. I can try to understand that, really; I can't enjoy GIR much, if I've been recently exposed to the retards in the fanbase. The insessant love for him goes beyond my understanding of it, and makes me feel as if the nimrods hardly understand the show.

However, I refuse to let that have a lasting effect on my perceptions.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to The-Humble-Jester [2009-02-22 17:53:47 +0000 UTC]

"I think you over-glorify Dib, despite his flaws, in a similar way that you despise others for glorifying Gaz for her flaws."

I'd been wondering when someone was going to say that, because I was becoming conscious of it myself.

I've never been one to go where the "Me too!" shrieks are the most deafening either. In particular, if more people approached this show in a more even-handed way, and said, "Gaz is within her rights to do something when Dib annoys her, but she goes much too far with it," I wouldn't feel this need to remind people that there's another side to this coin.

While we're on the subject, Gaz does a hell of a lot of evil in the guise of good, or at least whatever her notion of justice is... but somehow, I can count on my fingers those who have a problem with that.

They're far more likely to bleat "go Gaz, that's our girl, stomp the stuffing out of Dib over a bottle of pop," and think this is some sort of "GIRRRRRRRRLPOWER!!1" Oh puhleeez.

The thing that rubs me the wrong way is, it's never difficult to find someone who sees exactly how and where all the ways Dib is in the wrong (and who rejoices when he is tortured or soon will be), but next to impossible to find anyone who'll apply this same yardstick to Gaz. Hours of fiendish torture and backstabbing over a single lousy slice of pizza? If DIB was doing that they'd get it in a nanosecond.

And it's not because of her age; they respond the same way to drawings where she is a teenager. It's hardly surprising that she's still acting like that; what children were permitted to do, they continue to do well after they're old enough to know better. Dib is expected to learn and grow past what he was as a child, but somehow never Gaz.

I've been trying to think of the right word for believing that those who do evil in the name of good are worse than those who do evil in the name of evil, and settled on "idealistic." That's not a judgement, just a description. It appears that you are one of those who rank hypocrisy even below straightforward evil.

I saw House of 1000 Corpses, but I had to look up more information on The Devil's Rejects. Okay... Sheriff Wydell has to be the most extreme example imaginable. However, I'm willing to bet that at least some of those who saw this movie rejoiced to see these sadists getting a taste of their own medicine.

Which reminds me, when a story about animal torture makes the news, I've seen posts from people saying that they want all the same things done to the torturer, many apparently willing to do the honors themselves. I haven't seen much opposition to those sentiments, but I have wondered how much anger these people were carrying around until they found a socially acceptable outlet.

People are always offering acceptable reasons for the unacceptable things they do, the "Devil quoting Scripture." Few if any ever believe that what they are doing is evil; as far as we know, even the Godwin's Law guy himself believed those he was slaughtering were the enemy.

From the opening episode, I've been convinced Dib is frustrated that no one else sees what he sees, and realizing Zim isn't exactly here as a goodwill ambassador doesn't lower the stakes any. True, there is much self interest in what he's doing; all his life he's been rejected for his interests, and for an extrovert such as him that has to be a big deal. Most cartoons, indeed many live-action shows, depict characters as much flatter than this; fictional characters are more often closer to being either goody too shoes or impossibly evil stick figures. It makes the Dib human "human" indeed!

I'd never underestimate the effects of being abused at home; whether it comes from a parent or a younger sibling, abuse is abuse.

Very little of what people do is done for one reason alone, and the more frequent the behavior, the more likely it is that multiple motivations are at work. On top of that, different people will react differently to the same things depending on their own experiences.

This, I believe, shows the true breadth and scope of this series; it blurs the very lines between good and evil themselves. However, the only fine line that registers with most of the fandom is the one between hate and love, and even THEN it's romantic love alone.

It's not every login that I get a good, intelligent debate like this. When I first saw IZ in the animation studio where I worked, my co-workers all went, "Dib is on our side, but he's not totally good because... " and "Zim hates humans, but he's not totally evil because... " and "They're both standing in each other's way." Unfortunately, on this site, those responses are few and far between. Most IZ related comments go, "Like omg theer soe sexy toegehter!!1" or "Gaz is teh coolest character EVERRRRR!!!!!" or "Yay, Dib got hurt!"

"Hardly understand the show"? Did you ever say a mouthful there.

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The-Humble-Jester In reply to Dibsthe1 [2009-02-23 03:06:53 +0000 UTC]

“…if more people approached this show in a more even-handed way, and said, "Gaz is within her rights to do something when Dib annoys her, but she goes much too far with it," I wouldn't feel this need to remind people that there's another side to this coin.”

The point of it, however, is to go too far with it. Objectively, I know it's too far. In the universe of the cartoon series, though, it's a gray area. Many things are disgustingly over the top. It's as if the universe swims in a world of the seven deadly vices, leaving behind the corresponding virtues entirely. In a real-world setting, every single one of the characters would probably disgust me (yes, Dib included, who I can enjoy within his own universe purely outside of my own).

I find Gaz entertaining, because she is a caricature based on something people feel, at her very core. I know I've been frustrated to the point where I've wrongly targeted my brother for simply being in the room. I'm not proud of those moments, and I recognize them as wrong. However, in the context of that cartoon's universe, where morals are skewed at the very least, it's harder to honestly say.

I don’t approach the show even-handedly, because I take it in context of the universe, but I don’t need to be reminded of the opposite side of the coin.

“While we're on the subject, Gaz does a hell of a lot of evil in the guise of good, or at least whatever her notion of justice is...”

I've never seen her doing any such thing. I've only ever seen it portrayed as wrath in her own name. I don't even think she thinks its justice, as much as her perception of her rights as dominant. There's nothing moral intended, as I’ve seen it portrayed.

Dib has at least claimed some intent of a greater good. That is my point. In the context of the show, he’s still enjoyable. I wouldn’t like him in my universe, though.

(Then again, I wouldn’t like Gaz in my universe, either, but that’s not the point I was trying to make.)

“...and think this is some sort of "GIRRRRRRRRLPOWER!!1" Oh puhleeez.”

As a person who's actually entertained by Gaz, allow me to say that I never once attribute anything to “Grrl Power.” I would actually have to forget the context of the show and hate her on principle (I do not like characters being valued just for “Grrl Power’s” sake). I think it would be poetic justice for them to be sucked into the universe and mauled by Gaz for thinking that. Actually, that would be hilarious to see on a cartoon screen.

(And ghastly to see on Tru TV - because I have a healthy sense of fiction vs. reality.)

“The thing that rubs me the wrong way is, it's never difficult to find someone who sees exactly how and where all the ways Dib is in the wrong (and who rejoices when he is tortured or soon will be), but next to impossible to find anyone who'll apply this same yardstick to Gaz. Hours of fiendish torture and backstabbing over a single lousy slice of pizza? If DIB was doing that they'd get it in a nanosecond.”

Well, I certainly wouldn't enjoy that, just because it's not in Dib's character. He's the put-upon victim of a cruel fate, not an abusive troll. And, no, I wouldn’t describe Gaz as an abusive troll – more like some sort of lesser demon (let’s face it, greater demons have better things to do).

I also wouldn't use the same standards for Dib and Gaz, because I look at them in the respect of their universe, not mine. In mine, they'd be given the same treatment, because in MY universe (in my perspective of this bland reality I'm condemned to) there is justice and morality. Dib would probably come out on top, too, because he IS more moral (though he needs a LOT of shaping up and smacking around by some sort of moral authority).

“…Dib is expected to learn and grow past what he was as a child, but somehow never Gaz.”

If I could hazard a statement from my own perspective (I don’t speak for idiots, as I am not one), then I would suggest that more people would probably expect more from Dib because Dib is more relatable, and has more potential because of this. Gaz is, like many characters in the universe of that show, a caricature. And, you know, after a while, some people give up on expecting development.

(I treat the show House more realistically than Invader Zim – for obvious reasons – and the lack of development in House has just beat me down to the point where I don’t expect anything out of him.)

“I've been trying to think of the right word for believing that those who do evil in the name of good are worse than those who do evil in the name of evil, and settled on "idealistic." That's not a judgement, just a description. It appears that you are one of those who rank hypocrisy even below straightforward evil.”

It’s an opinion and belief that is affected by offense. I consider myself an upholder of a moral code that I uphold over everything else in my life (which I admit was a hard mindset to cultivate, and I do strive to continue to cultivate it). This being so, I find it personally offensive when people stand on my side of the line and do evil.

It isn’t mere hypocrisy. It is a dangerous form of hypocrisy. Corrupting the side of good, for lack of a better term, is still just as evil – but it hides, and weakens the forces against it. It’s hard to fight evil when it hides in the law. While I do hate hypocrisy, this hardly qualifies as a mere issue of hypocrisy.

“… Okay... Sheriff Wydell has to be the most extreme example imaginable. However, I'm willing to bet that at least some of those who saw this movie rejoiced to see these sadists getting a taste of their own medicine.”

I could hardly count myself among them, though I don't doubt such people exist. And, yes, he is a very, very extreme example – but he was the most recent one I saw, and I hated him the most. I rejoiced more at his downfall than at the sadists’. I understand the mindset, I really do. I have had such thoughts before, but I would not enact them. I rather hope that I would find it physically impossible to enact those deeds.

Evil in the name of good is not worth it.

“… I've seen posts from people saying that they want all the same things done to the torturer, many apparently willing to do the honors themselves. I haven't seen much opposition to those sentiments, …”

I don’t agree with those sentiments in action, though I may utter vile things along similar lines, myself. I have a quick temper, at times, but my actions are more deliberate than my words. They have to be, or I am worthless. It is a personal issue I work hard against.

“eople are always offering acceptable reasons for the unacceptable things they do, the "Devil quoting Scripture." Few if any ever believe that what they are doing is evil; as far as we know, even the Godwin's Law guy himself believed those he was slaughtering were the enemy.”

I try to be consistent across the board. Unacceptable action is always unacceptable. It is not acceptable for religion; it is not acceptable under the guise of a law, or under false-sciences, or whatever excuse. If one is undertaking immoral action for moral means, then they are not moral.

There’s an essay that talks about the fine lines of this, the difference between an honorable warrior and a terrorist (I am not a pacifist, after all, but I believe in strict rules of honorable warfare).

“From the opening episode, I've been convinced Dib is frustrated…”

He very likely is.

In the context of the show, I enjoy his character. However, if I employ the principles I hold in my own universe, I can find plenty of reasons to deride him as a person. As a character, he is well written.

“Very little of what people do is done for one reason alone, …”

I know. I just think that is the main reason. In the context of the show’s universe, and the different way people act in their own universe, it is probably the more overpowering reason, as well, as the show portrays people as mostly self-serving (call me naïve, call me idealistic, call me whatever, but I believe people are more good than evil). Dib is far above the average person, in this regard, as he does have some good lurking in him, but I don’t think he works with any balance of reasons.

“It's not every login that I get a good, intelligent debate like this. When I first saw IZ in the animation studio where I worked, my co-workers all went, "Dib is on our side, but he's not totally good because... " and "Zim hates humans, but he's not totally evil because... " and "They're both standing in each other's way." Unfortunately, on this site, those responses are few and far between. Most IZ related comments go, "Like omg theer soe sexy toegehter!!1" or "Gaz is teh coolest character EVERRRRR!!!!!" or "Yay, Dib got hurt!"”

I don’t like to consider those people (not consider them fans – I actually don’t like to consider them, at all). They make me cringe.

You’re not bad to talk to, yourself. You have a solid foundation for your opinions, at least, and have stones enough to debate when someone speaks up (I’ll sometimes speak up, and never hear a response, and it’s so very frustrating).

I understand your point of view, too. Dib’s not a bad character. He really isn’t my favorite character (…my… favorite is The Tallest Red, for bizarre reasons, actually… I can’t justify that), but the show would hardly work without him, and I don’t like him being abused out of hate of his character.

If this response is a little off, I’ve been under stress with a college paper, lately, and I often find it hard to express myself properly. Sometimes when I’m stressed, I speak too rigidly (as with my principles – which are not in black-and-white, if it sounds as if they might be).

(As for the bit about the fine like between hate and love - I can see that, in the show, but not really romantically. It... I don't really know if I'd call it love, but there is a need for Dib and Zim to have each other - as enemies, too. They validate each other that way... but that's a long discussion and explanation that I'm not currently up for.)

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Dibsthe1 In reply to The-Humble-Jester [2009-05-14 21:15:19 +0000 UTC]

Whew! SORRY about taking so long to reply! I didn't realize so much time had passed. I do hope you didn't think I'd lost interest. I don't log on to dA as often as I used to.

I hope you got a good grade on your paper and get some rest. My original reply was much longer but I have cut it down to the basics so it's easier to read now.

It's okay about the formatting, really. I had no trouble reading everything; in fact, your margins made it that much easier to read.


The point of it, however, is to go too far with it. Objectively, I know it's too far. In the universe of the cartoon series, though, it's a gray area. Many things are disgustingly over the top. It's as if the universe swims in a world of the seven deadly vices, leaving behind the corresponding virtues entirely.


So when Gaz goes too far it's just a cartoon and it's okay, but the second Dib does what he does it's Wrong? I think this, right here, is the crux of it for me.

Speaking of being consistent across the board, where you reject evil in the guise of good, I hate double standards, and for reasons you can easily guess at if you haven't already, I especially hate double standards applied within the same family.

I sometimes wonder what people's reactions to the series would be if each episode started with Zim taking some stupid little trifle Dib wanted and Dib spending the entire rest of the episode energetically punishing Zim, only this time, he actually makes good on some of those threats. (Right now they're sure cheering when Gaz does exactly that.)

Speaking of which, for all his threats of doing so, and for all those autopsy fantasies, we never actually see Dib dissect Zim, or even come close. We see Dib draw a picture of Zim's autopsy; interestingly enough, Gaz also draws a monster eating Dib in "The Wettening," (When it is noticed at all, this is applauded ). She takes her aggressive impulses toward Dib a lot farther than just drawings, and over stuff that will never by any stretch benefit anybody but herself.

Thinking about doing something, even if one has a reason for doing it, and actually doing it are two different things. We don't know for sure if Dib really would do to Zim what he says he'd like to, or if, as many fans would have us believe, he has come to grudgingly respect his foe and would have second thoughts at the last moment. I have to admit, this grudging respect is hinted at in canon here and there.

Zim plans for the annihilation of the entire human race and looks down on everybody but Gir and the Tallest and everybody just loves him, Gaz makes mountain ranges out of molehills, loathes everyone but her father and everybody just loves her; Dib IS hated by everybody and confines his aggression and anti-social impulses to one character and longs to hear "You were right" in place of "You're crazy!" and everybody at best condemns him and at worst hates him?

It can still astound me how people in general focus on Dib's selfish aspect even while completely ignoring the hostility and contempt pouring from Gaz and Zim.

When people don't like you, nothing you do is right. I get the vivid impression that if Dib was glueing his face to a video screen and acting like every mouthful in the house belonged to him, the fandom would condemn him just as loudly for that. Likewise, if the series had been about Gaz's quest to splatter Zim's guts across an autopsy table over something infinitesimal he had done in the pilot, I bet they'd all now be bleating, "Liek omg or somethign, u go Gaz, get Zim!!1"


“While we're on the subject, Gaz does a hell of a lot of evil in the guise of good, or at least whatever her notion of justice is...”

I've never seen her doing any such thing. I've only ever seen it portrayed as wrath in her own name. I don't even think she thinks its justice, as much as her perception of her rights as dominant. There's nothing moral intended, as I’ve seen it portrayed.

Taking one of her slices of pizza (when she presumably still has the other n-1 slices) is a capital offense? No pizza that isn't made of gold and covered with gems is worth the ugly two-faced backstabbing that permeates "Battle Dib." (To me that's the ugliest episode in Season One. The word "ugliest" describes nearly all of Season Two.)

Time and again I see people willing to overlook, forgive, etc. any and all of Gaz's unbounded malignant selfishness, but when it comes to Dib, letting his conduct slip below saintly for one second is suddenly enough to get him condemned.

I'm sure most other people view Gaz with the same sort of cathartic indulgence as they do a creation like Grumpy the Care Bear or Oscar the Grouch. I think I might actually be able to do the same, if she wasn't being constantly thrown against Dib, as if he didn't already have enough to deal with without this fifth column.

If we view society through viewer reaction to this one show, it seems that when it comes to wanting to befriend those of other cultures instead of fearing them, we've progressed quite a bit. However, when it comes to our own back yards, we've still got a long way to go when it comes to tolerating those who do not swallow every prevailing belief or who do not meekly conform.

If you want, we can discuss stuff like the thin line between evil and good, how Dib and Zim need each other, things like that. I can't promise I'll get back to you right away, but I will reply.

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The-Humble-Jester In reply to Dibsthe1 [2009-05-15 00:25:51 +0000 UTC]

Whew! SORRY about taking so long to reply!

It’s fine. I am patient.

I hope you got a good grade on your paper and get some rest.

The semester flew by, and I did well on all my papers, though I can’t say I’ve caught up on my sleep, just yet.

The point of it, however, is to go too far with it. Objectively, I know it's too far. In the universe of the cartoon series, though, it's a gray area. Many things are disgustingly over the top. It's as if the universe swims in a world of the seven deadly vices, leaving behind the corresponding virtues entirely.

Sounds like Vasquez, all right. If you haven’t read “Johnny the Homicidal Maniac,” yet, by the way, I really suggest it. The way Vasquez deals with the morals there are absolutely delicious.


So when Gaz goes too far it's just a cartoon and it's okay, but the second Dib does what he does it's Wrong? I think this, right here, is the crux of it for me.

Some people may think so, but I don’t – not in the context of that universe. However, I would be irritated at such a portrayal, because it really doesn’t seem like his character. Well, if we define “going too far” for Dib the same way we do, Gaz.

He does go too far, sometimes, in regards to Zim – in intent, if not in action – as with the autopsy video. Then again, I think it’s because he brings in a certain expectation of morality, but, when he goes too far, it does pervert the morality he’s brought in.

Gaz certainly doesn’t bring in the same sense of morality, so there is less offense when she goes too far, on a whole, because her intentions never brought morality, to begin with.

Speaking of being consistent across the board, where you reject evil in the guise of good, I hate double standards, and for reasons you can easily guess at if you haven't already, I especially hate double standards applied within the same family.

I can tell, and I admire that quality. My judgment for evil in the guise of good is something I try not to apply to Dib, because of the universe he is in, and all things being considered, but if I have to look at him realistically, that is what I see. Certainly not on the scale of my previous example (Devil’s Rejects), however.

I sometimes wonder what people's reactions to the series would be if each episode started with Zim taking some stupid little trifle Dib wanted and Dib spending the entire rest of the episode energetically punishing Zim, only this time, he actually makes good on some of those threats. (Right now they're sure cheering when Gaz does exactly that.)

Some people would like Dib for it, because that’s how some people are wired. As I said before, I know I wouldn’t, because it’s just not like Dib’s character to be so… I can’t find the word I’m looking for. Merciless, maybe?

Then again, I don’t know if I’ve pointed it out, but there really is only one time I’ve cheered for Gaz’s actions (maybe two, just in case I’m forgetting one), and it had nothing to do with Dib. You see, I just hate the idea of Iggins. It’s immature of me, yes, but Iggins just angers me with all his personal defects.

Speaking of which, for all his threats of doing so, and for all those autopsy fantasies, we never actually see Dib dissect Zim, or even come close. We see Dib draw a picture of Zim's autopsy; interestingly enough, Gaz also draws a monster eating Dib in "The Wettening," (When it is noticed at all, this is applauded). She takes her aggressive impulses toward Dib a lot farther than just drawings, and over stuff that will never by any stretch benefit anybody but herself.

Somehow, I found both the autopsy picture and the monster eating Dib picture to be adorable, rather than outraging (I couldn’t begin to explain why).

Anyway, I would like to point out that morality is not just in action, but also in intent. He tries to capture him desperately right off the bat, specifically for that purpose, I might add. I don’t recall him having done so, since, but that doesn’t mean he’s never tried.

I can see his personal justification for this, but it never sits well with me. I do think his intentions can grow and evolve (and have) – don’t take me the wrong way. I mostly speak of that incident.

...as many fans would have us believe, he has come to grudgingly respect his foe and would have second thoughts at the last moment. I have to admit, this grudging respect is hinted at in canon here and there...

Oh, they practically need each other. I believe there’s a script and even recorded audio for an episode based on just that very notion, floating around the Internet. That Dib develops at all is astonishing for any universe Vasquez has created. The only other character with development I can think of, off the top of my head, is Tess, from JtHM.

Zim plans for the annihilation of the entire human race and looks down on everybody but Gir and the Tallest and everybody just loves him, Gaz makes mountain ranges out of molehills, loathes everyone but her father and everybody just loves her; Dib IS hated by everybody and confines his aggression and anti-social impulses to one character and longs to hear "You were right" in place of "You're crazy!" and everybody at best condemns him and at worst hates him?

It can still astound me how people in general focus on Dib's selfish aspect even while completely ignoring the hostility and contempt pouring from Gaz and Zim.

Granted, it is my role to focus on that aspect, because in a debate, I can hardly agree with you on every point. I am a lover of debate, after all. I am also a lover of balance.

If you speak only of his good points, which you tend to do (and I can understand why), then I am practically obligated to point out that he, too, has his flaws, and though people may despise one for his good points, they also despise one for his flaws.

I’m sure if I cared to watch through the series again, and tried, I could find some hidden points of Gaz’s character that are not all bad. I could probably do the same for Zim. Off the top of my head, I could probably argue, in fact, that Zim is rather misguided and works heavily under the influence of his culture and, in regards to his own culture’s teachings, he does try very hard to be what constitutes good.

But that’s not the conversation, and these posts are particularly long even without adding in the discussion of Zim.

I like Zim because he’s an interesting character. And Gaz is fun in small doses in the same way slapstick is fun. I prefer her sans the gratuitous violence, myself, preferring moments where she just wants to play the “game” she thinks her brother is playing (because, from experience, nothing makes me want to play more than my brother playing something that he keeps messing up on that I know I can do).

I wouldn’t get rid of Dib, even if I wanted to (which I don’t, because he has his entertaining moments). The show would be boring without him, considering the fact that Nick didn’t want Vasquez to have crazy outer space adventures like he wanted.

I seem to have rambled far away from my point…

I don’t ignore Dib’s good points, and I don’t ignore Gaz’s bad points, but Gaz spends most of her time in the background (if she didn’t, she might actually have a chance to develop – not in the sense that Dib does, but in a sense that she’d become less flat). However, it is easier to ignore Gaz’s bad points for some because she doesn’t seem to have much else.

For myself, Zim can be seen through a number of lenses. I find more pity in me, than anger. I’ve expressed my reasons, before.

When people don't like you, nothing you do is right. I get the vivid impression that if Dib was glueing his face to a video screen and acting like every mouthful in the house belonged to him, the fandom would condemn him just as loudly for that. Likewise, if the series had been about Gaz's quest to splatter Zim's guts across an autopsy table over something infinitesimal he had done in the pilot, I bet they'd all now be bleating, "Liek omg or somethign, u go Gaz, get Zim!!1"

You can certainly couldn’t consider me one of them. If Gaz were anything more than a background character, and still retained all of her personality as it is, I think my tune would change considerably.

Taking one of her slices of pizza (when she presumably still has the other n-1 slices) is a capital offense? No pizza that isn't made of gold and covered with gems is worth the ugly two-faced backstabbing that permeates "Battle Dib." (To me that's the ugliest episode in Season One. The word "ugliest" describes nearly all of Season Two.)

Time and again I see people willing to overlook, forgive, etc. any and all of Gaz's unbounded malignant selfishness, but when it comes to Dib, letting his conduct slip below saintly for one second is suddenly enough to get him condemned.

Your example does not seem, to me, to give her any moral intent. She doesn’t mean any good in any of her actions. Dib has good intentions. There is a difference, there, and for that, I do admire Dib for having moral intentions.

Gaz has never shown any moral intention, that I could discern. Even if we consider taking one of her slices of pizza as “theft,” I severely doubt that her intention would be to punish theft.

If she existed outside of her universe, I couldn’t even see myself giving her character any consideration, in any way, shape, or form. Outside of the IZ-universe, she doesn’t even have the benefit of being entertaining in some moments. She just becomes boring.

I'm sure most other people view Gaz with the same sort of cathartic indulgence as they do a creation like Grumpy the Care Bear or Oscar the Grouch. I think I might actually be able to do the same, if she wasn't being constantly thrown against Dib, as if he didn't already have enough to deal with without this fifth column.

I certainly wouldn’t compare her to Grumpy, in Care Bears. As I recall, Grumpy did have a moral base, he only had a surly attitude. Gaz can’t really be taken in any way, outside of any sort of Johnen-created universe. It’s like having a puzzle piece of castle bricks when you’re doing a puzzle of an ocean. There’s no point to it, and you’re more likely to throw the piece away.

If we view society through viewer reaction to this one show, it seems that when it comes to wanting to befriend those of other cultures instead of fearing them, we've progressed quite a bit. However, when it comes to our own back yards, we've still got a long way to go when it comes to tolerating those who do not swallow every prevailing belief or who do not meekly conform.

See, I don’t pay attention to half the people in this fandom, because they’re stupid. That’s actually a much better ratio than most fandoms, which are closer to 75%, however. Most people don’t give any sort of thought to a cartoon, which is why the quality of cartoons has sharply declined.

Mostly, it isn’t the people who like Gaz that annoy me, as I’ve said. It’s the people who just love GIR way too much. I couldn’t say exactly why, but I think it has to do with the fact that I take Gaz with a grain of salt, and don’t really run into the Gaz fans. GIR has far more fans, and they just… I don’t know what it is, but it annoys me, just thinking about it.

If you want, we can discuss stuff like the thin line between evil and good, how Dib and Zim need each other, things like that. I can't promise I'll get back to you right away, but I will reply.

Ah, the good and evil discussion is a favorite for philosophy, but it is one I don’t think I’ll ever have the strength for, in a long-term discussion.

This topic is good enough, for now, and I can wait for a response.

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The-Humble-Jester In reply to The-Humble-Jester [2009-02-23 03:08:21 +0000 UTC]

DAMN it. I didn't preview, and it screwed up my post. I'm sorry about the formatting.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to cunningcoyote [2009-02-09 20:50:57 +0000 UTC]

There is some debate around the age issue, but most of what I've seen says Gaz is one year, or at the most two years, younger than Dib, so that's what I've been going by.

What IS Gaz, anyway? Is she a pit bull or a little girl? A little sister or a dockside goon? She may look like one of those but she can sure act like the other. For me, the second Gaz stops acting like a little sister she stops being regarded as one.

Very interesting how Dib gets blamed when the hair trigger temper, the tantrums, the frenzied lashing out, etc. all belong to Gaz. Did you know wife beaters and abusive parents do much the same thing? They excuse themselves and blame their victims: "I'd never hit you if you didn't make me mad. None of those black eyes or split lips are my fault; they're all your doing."

The biggest problem I have with Gaz isn't even her any more as much as how fans react to her. What I was trying to say, but didn't get it across very well, is this: Zim is allowed to be evil and Bitters is allowed to be evil; Gaz especially is allowed to push all boundaries of evil and gets applauded for it. The fandom waits and waits and waits and waits some more until DIB does something not recommended in Sunday school and that's when it suddenly calls in the old-fashioned morality.

Dib doesn't exactly wheel out the Welcome Wagon when Zim comes to town; that fits right into the nature of the show too. However, that's exactly when much of the fandom breaks away from Jhonen's vision. "Dib is supposed to be NICE to Zim! Nobody else in this show is ever nice to anybody else... but why isn't Dib being NICE to Zim?"

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cunningcoyote In reply to cunningcoyote [2009-01-03 07:26:47 +0000 UTC]

Edit: Actually, if anyone got crap and still deserved it, it was Iggens. That brat desreved every single bit of Gaz torture he got.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to InvaderKel [2008-09-18 13:54:49 +0000 UTC]

I wonder if admiring fictional bullies will make it easier for people to eventually admire, or at least not condemn, real life bullies. Before we do it, we first have to think about it. Or as I like to say, before it was science, it was science fiction.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to nightmarekitty [2008-09-18 13:52:03 +0000 UTC]

I've seen reviews that damn Dib for "not standing up to her." "Her." The obviously unbalanced psycho who files into uncontrollable convulsions over a bottle of soda. Uh. Huh.

I noticed they only said he should do it; they never provided a whiff of a hint as to HOW.

Sure, villains always had a certain cachet and e´lan to them; they stole the show and movie stars made no secret that they really enjoyed playing the bad guys. However, we used to know they'd get what they had coming to them, and would even leave the theater dissatisfied if they didn't.

I wonder when this change happened?

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nightmarekitty In reply to Dibsthe1 [2008-09-21 03:42:38 +0000 UTC]

And of course if he actually did stand up to her, the fans would crucify him and say all the things about him that right now rightfully apply to Gaz.

I've heard that described as the "darker and edgier" phenomenon - a lot of companies and creators deciding that people liked a more cynical or generally less friendly take on things. I've seen the origin of it attributed to graphic novels replacing straight superhero comics, anime and a whole bunch of other things, but there's probably a deeper reason for why people enjoy that.

Personally, I'd prefer that creators would focus on making the villains more sympathetic rather than making the heroes harder to like. It seems I'm in the minority there, though.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to nightmarekitty [2008-09-21 15:13:05 +0000 UTC]

I left out something.

That's the mark of a more mature work. Today's better written works will show the less evil side of a villain, and admit that the hero can have a less than honorable facet. Today, plays and movies in which the hero is whiter than white and the villain is blacker than black are laughed at as cheap melodrama.

This additional depth and dimension was TRYING to trickle into animated cartoons via Invader Zim; but the masses took one look at all the pretty colors and went, "Name of show hero. Hero GOOD! Villain BAD!"

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Dibsthe1 In reply to nightmarekitty [2008-09-21 15:01:57 +0000 UTC]

That's what I. Do NOT. Get.

"liek totaly omg liek i luuuuv zim he's so eviel! and iluuuuv gaz evn moore or something, shez juts so... EVIEL!! but idon liek dib, he's juts evil." And they'll give the very same reason.

The very few times I managed to find a fic on FFN where he did come to his senses re Gaz, most of the reviews expressed relief and applauded him. Now, SOME still did say "po' widdow babbee gazzee," or "dont let gaz be dead," or something else deliberately blind to the facts.

It is hard enough as it is to find someone who likes Dib, and by that I mean who truly likes him (and NO, lolling one's guts out when they find a pic of him tortured and defeated and humiliated does NOT count as "liking" him, believe it or not. )

If Dib hadn't kept licking that ungrateful, intolerant poisonous bitch's ass in canon, we wouldn't even find even this much affection for Dib... temporary as it is and all. That's the truly sad thing.

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Dibsthe1 In reply to Spookybishop [2008-09-17 04:08:57 +0000 UTC]

I prefer to think of it as mining an embarrassingly rich, but somehow vastly underused, field.

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