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EranFowler In reply to Earim [2009-10-10 20:56:57 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for letting me know, Earim. I appreciate it.

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EranFowler In reply to jambe [2009-08-06 23:53:04 +0000 UTC]

Honestly, I must agree; I find that he loses his professionalism when he talks about religion, and I flat-out disagree with his assertions about atheism. I'm agnostic, personally, because I see it as the only truly rational position; not that I don't have suppositions one way or another, but because I don't see that evidence for or against a God is knowable. I try to leave my emotionalism at home, and Dawkins fails to do that.

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jambe In reply to EranFowler [2009-08-07 05:35:31 +0000 UTC]

One redeeming point of the book, I thought, was Dawkin's spectrum of theistic probability:

[link]

I would be a six, and Dawkins is a six. He's only "truly agnostic" regards stuff that has a trivial or nonexistent effect on daily life (fairies, orcs, dragons, etc). Religion obviously has major effects on life and thus deserves rational criticism.

The assumption of a presence that's not provable, observable or effectual is irrational by definition; the only "truly rational" spots on Dawkin's spectrum are thus 4-6. Regards soundness of judgement and compliance with the observable natural world, 6 is the most rational position. 1-3 and 7 are intrinsically irrational.

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EranFowler In reply to jambe [2009-08-07 05:47:20 +0000 UTC]

I would be a 5. And yes, I think it's a useful tool for evaluating one's position. I also agree that religion merits rational criticism for veracity and internal consistency, but I will leave that task to those with the stomach for it. I prefer to direct my attention towards secular and humanist matters, like science and utilitarian ethics.

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jambe In reply to EranFowler [2009-08-08 02:43:19 +0000 UTC]

I'm much like you in that regard; I can stomach critiquing religion but I'm far more interested in other things — biology, astronomy, ceramics, illustration, game design. Time spent refuting silly superstition could be better spent doing other stuff.

I like ethics, myself... but it's impossible to delve into philosophy of morality or practical/applied ethics without encountering "divine providence is the source of all morality" nutters. At least, that's what it's like in Indiana; I've heard it's different in places like Denmark and Sweden.

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EranFowler In reply to jambe [2009-08-08 05:38:10 +0000 UTC]

Well, yes, they do have a way of popping up. It's not so bad in the Northwest (my family is Oregonian, and I'm attending school in Canada) particularly in places of education, but you still see a few naturalists insisting on ethics as an inherent quality in all things. Unless you're still referring to the deists, who literally think there is no morality without a God (I use the term "morality" dubiously) which I always found to be an extremely infantilizing and victimizing way of looking at man's role in his own destiny. Those, I don't see very often up here. At least, not in the rarefied environment of post-secondary education.
Plenty of crazy to go around, in the real world.

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jambe In reply to EranFowler [2009-08-08 21:13:29 +0000 UTC]

I'd like to move to the northwest — Washington or Oregon. I've always fancied the temperate forests! Trees don't get that big out here, and we don't get that wonderful scent of conifer litter after a rain shower. That's one of my favorite aromas... just thinking of it makes me contented, and I long for the coast. *sigh*

I was referring to deists, but the same holds true of anybody who believes a "supreme being" dictates laws to mankind or otherwise has measurable or observable impacts on our existence (so, all the Abrahamic sects qualify, as do pretty much all religions, really).

And yeah... "morality" tends to be one of those "you're OBVIOUSLY instilled with it" kinds of nonsense words thrown around by apologists.

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EranFowler In reply to jambe [2009-08-08 21:24:14 +0000 UTC]

I do believe I like you, sir. Good conversation is always a rare treat.

I'd definitely recommend Portland if you ever get the chance. Wonderfully quirky atmosphere, as can be expected of the final resting place of the world's hippy population.

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