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Kotego — Stamp - Not Even Close
Published: 2011-04-22 22:44:33 +0000 UTC; Views: 4309; Favourites: 178; Downloads: 19
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Description
Fetus (first trimester):[link]: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth
Baby:[link]
: An infant; a newborn child.
A fetus is not a baby. Not even close.
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Comments: 782
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Attention Pro-Life Conservative Christians: Do you want no more Welfare? Or do you want no more Abortions? Because you can have one or the other, NOT both!
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If they had their way, they'd outlaw both, regardless of the disastrous consequences.
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99% of Pro-"Life" wingnuts oppose any assistance programs to feed and shelter kids. They just want those children born, whether they'll be adequately provided for or not.
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They value quantity over quality.
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WAHHH WAHHH HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WONT FEEL THAT ITS BEING ABORTED?
THEY ARE HUMANS! WAHH WAHH THEY ARE POTENTIAL LIFE!
Why do pro lifers pull up the same bullshit argument?
Its a potential life, its almost a human being. How do YOU know its going to know its being aborted?
When will i see a pro lifer with a different argument?
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Because inane rhetoric is the only thing they have.
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It may have human DNA, but it's still just a clump of cells.
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What changes when a clump of cells takes its first breath?
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Um, clumps of cells can't breathe. They take their first breath when they're out of the womb, you know, when they're actually born.
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Obviously. But what changes to make the clump of cells more valuable?
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When their brain actually starts to function. That's when they actually feel pain or fear - which is in the third trimester. Most abortions only occur in the first, and those that don't are to save the woman's life.
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The brain is actually present and the nervous system functional before most women even realize they are pregnant. The heart is beating independantly of the mother at that point. If the brain exsisted but didn't function, then there would be no point in the brain, would there? Once there is space for the brain, The brain is developing from the very beginning, and is functional very soon in. By the time most women realize that they're pregnant and take a test, the fetus can move on its own and its heart is beating.
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The brain is actually present and the nervous system functional before most women even realize they are pregnant.
When I said"actually start to function", I was mostly referring to synapses. My bad for not clarifying that. Before that process occurs they're as self-aware as a plant. Hence, they are insentient until the the third trimester (at which point you have to be a dumbass not to realize that you're pregnant).
The heart is beating independantly of the mother at that point.
And? The beating of the heart is just about as significant as the kidneys functioning, where fetuses are concerned.
If the brain exsisted but didn't function , then there would be no point in the brain, would there? Once there is space for the brain, The brain is developing from the very beginning, and is functional very soon in.
What do you think the fetus does in the womb for nine months? It takes time to develop, in which some organs take longer than others. Thus it takes until the third trimester for the fetus to become sentient.
By the time most women realize that they're pregnant and take a test, the fetus can move on its own and its heart is beating.
Again, the beating heart means nothing but shit. The fact that the fetus' blood-pumping organ is active doesn't change the fact that it's still insentient. And for that matter it can't move on its own without stimuli, in which we call that a reflex - even plants experience that when something touches them.
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You said that when a fetus can choose to move on its own, then it is a person. The fetus can move on its own before most women realize they are pregnant. The brain is functional before most women realize they are pregnant. The fetus can and does respond to outside stimuli, but not in an automatic way as you are suggesting. Their personalities are already developing and are quite far along early on, and if the fetus is watched (because the mother can't usually feel it moving at the time) the fetus's reactions are not just instinctive. The brain, nervous system, and personality are the first things to develop. After those, then other essential parts start to develop. That's what it's doing for nine months and why it can't survive outside the womb without an incubator (and even incubators don't always work.)
There are many adults and children alive today who are less responsive to outside stimuli than a fetus in the first trimester. They have been studied and tested, and they have varying brain disorders, but are not in comas. They are also not brain-dead. However, those humans are considered people. The only reason a fetus is not considered a person is because it is still developing and doesn't look like a person.
There comes a point when a person has to decide for himself whether or not a fetus is person. If it's not a person, and there isn't really a definite point where it becomes a person (seeing as even pro-choice people can't decide that), then human life itself isn't worth much at all. On the other hand, if a fetus is a person, then the implications are huge. Is it wise for people to play god over something that even pro-choice people can't agree on?
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Child. If you truly think that a non-sentient fetus that cannot feel pain or sympathize is more important than the human carrying it, I gotta hand it to you, you're pretty damn screwed up.
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When did I say it's more important than the human carrying it?
Also, watch this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZFGm…
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You said that when a fetus can choose to move on its own, then it is a person.
I said no such thing.
The fetus can move on its own before most women realize they are pregnant. The brain is functional before most women realize they are pregnant. The fetus can and does respond to outside stimuli, but not in an automatic way as you are suggesting. Their personalities are already developing and are quite far along early on, and if the fetus is watched (because the mother can't usually feel it moving at the time) the fetus's reactions are not just instinctive. The brain, nervous system, and personality are the first things to develop. After those, then other essential parts start to develop. That's what it's doing for nine months and why it can't survive outside the womb without an incubator (and even incubators don't always work.)
Again, sentience is what's important. Without it the fetus is unaware of itself and its surroundings. It feels nothing at this point.
There are many adults and children alive today who are less responsive to outside stimuli than a fetus in the first trimester. They have been studied and tested, and they have varying brain disorders, but are not in comas. They are also not brain-dead. However, those humans are considered people. The only reason a fetus is not considered a person is because it is still developing and doesn't look like a person.
But these people are still sentient. They may not be as aware, but they can still feel.
There comes a point when a person has to decide for himself whether or not a fetus is person. If it's not a person, and there isn't really a definite point where it becomes a person (seeing as even pro-choice people can't decide that)
I think the general consensus among pro-choicers is that a fetus is a fetus, not a baby nor a person. Likewise pro-lifers seem to be at odds with each other over whether killing other people in situations such as crime or war is justifiable.
then human life itself isn't worth much at all.
Perhaps so. Pro-lifers make a marvelous case in favor of that every time they blow up a clinic or shoot a doctor.
On the other hand, if a fetus is a person, then the implications are huge. Is it wise for people to play god over something that even pro-choice people can't agree on?
Is it wise to dictate another person's life despite you know nothing about their situation, their life, or even why they're going through with something like an abortion?
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A fetus has to decide to move in order to move, sentient or not. Plants "move" by growing more or fewer cells in certain areas of their tissues. Some plants move differently, and scientists theorize that movements of liquids through the tissues cause this motion. However, it's established that plants don't have muscle responses and nervous systems like people and animals do. Comparing a fetus to a plant is not a good comparison. Also, saying that a fetus in the first trimester is unaware of its surroundings is simply false. Studies have shown that human fetuses will react to various stimuli from an astonishingly early age.
The truth is, "sentience" is theoretical. No one knows what makes a creature sentient. The idea of being "self-aware" is very vague, considering that animals as well as humans obviously choose to react to their surroundings, when most people do not consider animals to be sentient. You simply cannot argue that a fetus "feels nothing" at this point, because you don't know. No one knows. You also cannot argue that a person with a severe brain disorder is sentient, because you don't know. Scientists are still searching for sentience, if it even exists. It's unwise to place such a weighty decision on such a vague and theoretical idea.
You said yourself that once a fetus gains sentience (whatever that is), then it becomes a person. Is it not contradictory to say that "a fetus is a fetus, not a baby nor a person"? Most pro-lifers agree that killing is acceptable when human life is at stake. Most anyone will kill in self-defense. There are far radicals on both sides: Pro-lifers (as well as pro-choicers) have people who will kneel down and die for no apparent reason, while pro-choicers are unique in that they are the only side that has a few radical people who agree that it's acceptable to kill a full-term baby (yes, baby) just after it's born. Fortunately most don’t think that it’s right to do so, but the fact that it was even voted on proves that there are a significant number who do think it’s right.
You fail to bring up the fact that the few instances where abortion clinics and abortion administrators have been killed are condemned by the pro-life public. As said before, there are radicals on both sides. The people who do such things are subject to the full extent of the law regarding murder. It's unjust and illogical to stereotype the entire pro-life public with the few radicals.
It's not wise to dictate anyone's life, including an unborn child's. Pro-choicers argue that a fetus is not a child, but the truth is that it can't be effectively argued either way early on in a pregnancy. One simply has to make their own opinion on the matter. However, there is no denying that a fetus, person or not, will become a person if given the chance. Should a life-and-death decision be based on opinion? The mother can be helped and supported. The truth is that most abortions take place from pregnancies where both parents wanted sex but were irresponsible. That’s just the facts, not my opinion. You can research that yourself if you’d like. It's not hard to wear a condom. There are also many, many other ways to avoid getting pregnant, and most are quite effective. Naturally, the most effective is not to have sex in the first place. Since it's usually irresponsibility and selfishness which causes an unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and since we don't know enough about sentience to prove either way early on in a pregnancy, it's not wise to make the decision to kill. Yes, it is killing, either way. Pro-choicers argue that it's not murder, but it is killing, and no one can deny that. If given the chance, a fetus will become a person, even if you don't choose to call it a person from the start. Is it right to prevent that life from happening in favor of irresponsibility, selfishness, and/or sex addiction? Such a decision is far, far weightier than pro-choicers like to think. Since it can't be proved that a fetus is not a person, is it right to exterminate it? That's the question that pro-lifers are asking.
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Why so much hate on this stamp?
Its obviously true, a fetus is like a parasite and it also can not think so it wont care if its aborted or not.
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People think this stamp is about whether an unborn kid is human or not, and that's not what the stamp is about. It's about definitions.
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A mentally deficient person can't think either.
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But they are people. Not fetuses.
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Are you a doctor? A biologist? A scientist? Do you speak for God?
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Not everybody believes in the bullshit "Will of God". Nobody speaks for God. You don't either. So your argument that they're humans is insufficient.
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I never argued for the will of God.
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But you are you? no, you're not. Look, abortion is fine. It's the mothers choice and I think she has the right to have an abortion if she god damn wants to. The fetus won't even care that it's being aborted.
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How do you know the fetus won't care? And who gets to say what an individual has the right to have a choice and what to have a choice about.
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A fetus is non-sentient. If you honestly believe that something that isn't even alive yet should have more rights than the woman carrying it (who might've been raped, and young, or could die, or used contraceptives and failed), you're pretty damn fucked up in the head.
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If you think having a vagina gives someone the omniscience to decide the value of human life then you are the one whose fucked up in the head.
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I'm pretty sure it won't give a shit. And the woman has every right to have a say. She can have a abortion if she wants. You can't do anything about it. Honestly, I don't care about fetuses.
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If a woman has the right to kill an unborn child, then why is murder such a dreadful crime?
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"if you don't agree with abortion then you don't have to have one.
It's the lady's uterus, let her decide what she does with it."
you're a freaking guy
not being sexist but you can't decide for shit
unless you're carrying the parasite for 9 months and funding for it afterward
shut the hell up
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That is being very sexist to say one;s gender decides whether or not they get to have a say in whether or not a human being's life will be preserved.
And it's hardly a parasite.
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Murder: is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse, and it is especially the unlawful killing of another person with malice aforethought.
You said it yourself. Only the born are persons. You said unborn child. Well, yes, then it isn't murder.
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I said you stated "unborn child". When the fuck did I say you said born?
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I was denying that I said only the born are people.
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It's not murder.
I feel like you're not even a woman.
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What was your first clue?
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I was just assuming. I think men don't really need to get involved in a woman's choice.
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I don't believe people in general need to interpret what the Constitution terms, "The right to LIFE, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
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Well if I ever wanted an abortion I would get one no matter what you say because it's my fucking choice and body. But I won't need to anyway because I don't plan on having a man in my life. But either way it's my opinion and I think the stamp maker is right. I may think about what I like and you aren't in charge of that. So be on your way, I'm not replying back.
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lmao if you don't agree with abortion then you don't have to have one.
It's the lady's uterus, let her decide what she does with it.
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Either way it's still insentient. Whatever labels you apply won't change that.
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So? I don't see that mattering, what with coma patients Or babies less than a year old.
If a woman willing/knowingly went through the process required to get pregnant, then by definition she went through the process required to create a Human Life Willing/Knowingly as well. The only exceptions would be if she used contraceptives of some sort.(aside from, you know, Rape). So there are consequences for that. and this is such an important subject
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