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Sherval In reply to DarkOverlord1296 [2013-11-05 05:21:57 +0000 UTC]

On the contrary, I think I do. A girl who gets all the most popular guys in the fandom fussing over her constantly, a girl who somehow becomes a sudden extra member of organization whose official membercount is in their frikking name, a girl who steals spotlight from older characters (that people actually care about) and who have way more value in the main plot overall (especially since they're present in multiple games)... oh, and despite having to be protected every now and then, she conveniently becomes ultra powerful for the last boss battle (all in the name of angsty tragedy) T_T. Just because she doesn't end up in a relationship with someone doesn't save her from being a Sue. As for whether YOU consider her as such, that's up to you. And for your information, there isn't a solid definition for a Mary Sue to begin with.

What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person .

-TV Tropes

To me, a Mary Sue doesn't necessarily have to be a completely flawless character. The way Xion has been portrayed as something teenager KH fangirls would daydream themselves (or their characters) to be in the story is enough for me.

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DarkOverlord1296 In reply to Sherval [2013-11-05 17:13:23 +0000 UTC]

What? Since when Xion is not a important part in the story? "The way Xion has been portrayed as something teenager KH fangirls would daydream themselves"? Im sorry, but i I were a teenager girl, i would NEVER dream of being like her, at all, aside from having friends like Axel and Roxas. I think this does have a good point regarding Xion and her existence in KH user70.deviantart.com/art/Xion…

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Sherval In reply to DarkOverlord1296 [2013-11-13 20:27:20 +0000 UTC]

You'd be surprised how much teenage girls like to mix romance and tragedy in their daydreams (just venture into the creepy depths of fanfiction.net, I dare you)... Anyway, I'd like to point out the following things:

I don't dislike Xion because she "gets between Akuroku and their hawt boisex". Yes, I may have liked Akuroku once and yes, it was the pairing that got me into shonen ai/yaoi in the first place. However, I don't worship like it was my religion nor do I fool myself into thinking that it's canon. Akuroku is a fantasy that the friendship between Axel and Roxas would go beyond platonic levels, nothing more, nothing less.

The main reason why Xion does irk me is that she's another effing Kairi clone! As in a third version of a character, who's already my least favourite from the entire series (though Xion has some additional angst and tragedy sprinkled on top). I didn't want to see a new version of Kairi, I wanted to see the original organization 13 dammit.

As for how much of a true blue Sue she is, your post has made me rethink if I used that term... a bit too lightly. The key word being “if” (because there is a thing as "a Sympathetic Sue"). Even so, one can't say that her official status as the 14th member of org. 13, being at the center of Riku, Roxas and Axel's attention AND having both a tragic backstory + ending aren't something one could expect from your average Sue. I suppose I could finally see her character for myself now that I finally possess a Nintendo DS slim. The problem is, I've little to no interest to do so. Mainly because many review sites + friends with similar gaming interests as me have told me this "Days is like your average KH game with shittier graphipcs (understandable) and much more repetitive gameplay (not something I could overlook). To be blunt, I've lost my interest to KH series almost completely and I'm getting tired of replying to comments posted onto this picture, mainly because I've no interest to go on and on how this series frustrates me or explain why I see some characters in certain light etc. . I posted this picture nearly three years ago and back then I would have welcomed your challenging view on my opinions... but times change. I liked the first two main games + BBS, but after seeing how overly convoluted the story has become (for the sake of making this series overstay its welcome), I moved onto games that I find more entertaining both gameplay AND story-wise. Series like Assasin's Creed, Pokemon, Ratchet and Clank and so on.

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DarkOverlord1296 In reply to Sherval [2013-11-13 21:12:20 +0000 UTC]

I kinda understand your point. But, i have to ask something that really bugs me: Why Kairi is almost everyone least character? Since, well, she never gets a chance to do anything (until KH3 i hope) and i find her very likeable and kind (to the point i just can't understand why there are so many people saying she's the worst person ever), but maybe that's just me.

Besides, giving up on a franchise just because it became "complex" for the sake of "being complex" is a rather (excuse me for this).........lame excuse (please, i beg you, dont HATE me for that). 

But i'll admit, i never watch the year someone post something, and thats why i tend to get on conversations like this (too bad from my part), because i would think before posting. That and the fact that i created my account just a year ago and i just can get my own mouth shut sometimes.

And, i suggest you not to hear others saying (friend of website) how is a game before you play it, you have to experience it for yourself to have a strong opinion about it (heck, with all the bad reviews Final Fantasy XIII got from websites and some of my friends, i ended up playing it and i friggin enjoyed it to almost no end).

It wasn't my intention to start such and arguement (like i said, i have some serious problems keeping my mouth shut), so please accept my apologies.

P.S.: Yes, i have visited fanfiction.net, i completely understand you there now that i remember (though im not sure if i wanted to...remember it... hehe...*sigh*...)

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Sherval In reply to DarkOverlord1296 [2013-11-13 21:42:23 +0000 UTC]

No need to apologize, I should probably just block the comments for this particular deviation altogether (and there's no way you would know about my disinterest right away unless you had read my uber long conversation with some other DA user as seen below). In fact, that's probably what I'll do tomorrow (since it'll remove ALL the comments posted already, kinda stupid since I could let them actually stay there). I've already posted the main issues I have with Kairi and you can read them from my earlier comments if you wish. I've also explained why I trust reviewers and my friends more instead of trying out that game myself. And I've also seen all the hate XIII has gotten but unlike with Days, I found its characters and setting intriguing enough to see it for myself. I've even bought it for PS3, all I need to do now is to give it some of my free time and actually play it.

There's a difference between becoming more complex and becoming overly convoluted. I think KH's case is the latter- there are bazillion characters that are extensions of some other characters (Sora isn't just Sora anymore, there are characters like Ventus,Vanitas, Roxas and Xion who are all a part of him). Therefore they work (in my opinion) as a cheap excuse to recycle same character designs over and over and over again. The plot should be tweaked so that the gamers could be allowed to visit new worlds more often. Instead, it too works as an excuse for using the same worlds constantly. Rinse and repeat, that's what I think this series has become. Whereas other series keep introducing new characters, worlds, items and whatnot, KH chooses to build layers upon convoluted layers on its old assets to the point of owerdoing them.

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DarkOverlord1296 In reply to Sherval [2013-11-13 22:28:04 +0000 UTC]

I think its the fact that i played the games, over and over again, read the wikis, interviews and more for so long that i can totally play them again, and future games, without scratching my head and say "Da heck is this?!" (yep, i have a lot of free time indeed...). 

I dont think is that of a "cheap" excuse, but at least it works (keyword: "Least") And i think the last part is a bit "Why not wait before saying?" since there is little to no info about KH3 or any other KH game, so i dont think thats a sure thing to say. Who knows? Maybe we just have to wait and see if they can improve, dont you think? 

Also: "Whereas other series keep introducing new characters, worlds, items and whatnot, KH chooses to build layers upon convoluted layers on its old assets to the point of owerdoing them." Hmm... I have my doubts about that, KH2 and BbS did introduce a LOT of content to the series (mainly because they are "main" games) and i think 3 will do the same.

Ive never saw any of your works or comments, but i would like to know: Why you trust more on reviewers and friends about a "game" than your own personal experience and opinion? (hell, i ever put my trust on IGN or AngryJoe, i would almost shoot myself of regret, and i have friends that did reccomend me some nice games, but i ended up wasting my time). 

If i may, i would suggest not to block the comments, since i should do it only if its almost full of trolls or "HATRED FILLED!!" comments (wich i have to say, i did somewhat of one at the beggining). Ive read the comments and there is a lot of people who: Liked your work and agree with you, as well some long and interesting conversations with people that dont agree with you, but they went and said "I do not agree with you, miss" and you went and said "Alright, let me explain in detail", and thats just fine, no real reason to block if you ask me (keep in mind, ive been in DA for not quite a long time so i might no understand some things)

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MegaWallflower In reply to Turbotails123 [2012-12-31 11:02:13 +0000 UTC]

I don't think that's quite it. Alice certainly had a temper, after all. Kairi's not an eternal ray of sunshine, she's gotten angry, and she's been depressed. She's a really good person, but she's still perfectly capable of feeling emotions like anger or sorrow, generally thought of as negative. She's may not be wrathful or envious in comparison to the other characters, but I wouldn't go so far as to insinuate she's a saint.

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Sherval In reply to Turbotails123 [2012-12-22 09:52:26 +0000 UTC]

Perhaps, but I don't like plot writing like that that makes a central character to be "Oh so pure!" to the point of being shallow and uninteresting.

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Sherval In reply to Sexiipup94 [2012-11-11 00:47:59 +0000 UTC]

Whoah, that's a HUGE wall of text. For a second, I thought that this was one of those stupid chain letters and nearly deleted it XD.

Let's start with Kairi, shall we?
Yes, like you said, she does have fears and acts immature at times BUT those both aspects PALE in comparison to what I like to refer as "A Mary Sue-aura". A common Mary Sue CAN be a bit childish at times (but in an innocent sort of way, just like Kairi i.e. it isn't selfish and is more like friendly teasing like at the very beginning of the first KH1 when she scolds Sora for napping) and CAN be afraid at times but it doesn't go much further than admitting their fears before bravely defending someone or even charging right at the enemies. No, I'm not saying that Kairi should have covered in fear all the time or been a selfish douchebag... But in my opinion, she really doesn't have any proper personality related flaws like Sora (who can be quite naive and isn't really the sharpest tool in the shed) or Riku, especially Riku. Yes, she did say about that raft thing at the beginning, but apart from that, I can’t remember her doing or saying ANYTHING at all that could have been considered notably selfish or mean for no proper reason.

Riku on the other hand… He turned from a loyal friend into a power obsessed maniac and after that, into a remorseful character who did everything in his power to make things right again but was still too ashamed to face his childhood friends. I find him the most humane out of the main trio.

I admit, Kairi is a bit more active than some of her Disney princess counterparts like Cinderella and Snow White (especially the latter, but like I said before, they also didn’t have to get rescued 24/7)... in KH2, that is. The first game is mainly spent with her constantly being in danger or trouble and her best friends doing everything they can for her sake T_T. At first, she's in trouble at Destiny islands when it's being overrun by shadows. After that she just vanishes, poof! The next time we REALLY get to see her (excluding the brief hallucinations her presence caused to Sora), we find out that her heart is gone and she is empty vessel, but wait, Sora can save her by practically destroying himself in the process *rolls eyes*. She gets to protect him once, sure (and even give him that oath keeper thingie) but for the rest of the game, she just stays in the sidelines until the finale. That doesn't sound so proactive to me, either...To me, she's more of a plot device whose presence is having more of an effect on anything rather than her actions. In Kh 2 this gets pretty much repeated to a point BUT, the writers were -thankfully- wise enough to realize that making her just a damsel in distress wouldn't cut it this time. She had that interesting mental conversation with Roxas and Sora, she made Riku to reveal himself properly to Sora and even protected her friends. But considering that the first game and the majority of the second one, she was just someone constantly in trouble and in need of help, those redeeming actions were too little, too late.

As for her battling skills, I said it before and I say it again: that Xemnas battle had many, many different parts. She could have fought the smaller enemies in the background during the earlier phases and the game makers could have made it seem legit with some effort. Whatever the reason they had to suddenly reveal her “fighting spirit”, the results seemed really pathetic to me. It would have been one thing if they had at least pitted her against the most common forms of nobodies or maybe even slightly more powerful heartless. Instead, she was practically stepping on flies (slightly stronger than the ones at beginning of KH1, but still), not something that would convince that she'd be that capable of defending herself against any real threats like yet another kidnapper.


Like it or not, character's actions and her/his character design are also part of the said character and therefore worth mentioning when analyzing the said character thoroughly. I understand what you're getting at though, one shouldn't exactly start hating a character, or rather their personality, over a stupid choice of clothing/weapon design. But here's the situation: I'm unimpressed by Kairi's personality, I'm unimpressed by her "impressive" actions (or lack thereof) and having a stupid looking weapon certainly isn't helping the situation. A character's personality and character development are always my top priorities when I'm judging them. The one that comes next would be how well they interact with the plot... And finally, the least important part to me is how they look.

Tidus from Final Fantasy X, is my 2nd favourite character of the said game despite the fact that many people seem to hate him. I like his character development, I think he is important character story-wise... but his outfit is just plain ugly an it annoys me how Square could have made it better by simply toning down the colours like they did in Dissidia Final Fantasy. Even so, I like him as a character and I don't let his poor choice of clothing affect that .

And while Kairi may have done some flashier stuff than her nobody (i.e. restored Sora to his human form), I still prefer Namine simply because she has more believable personality. It also took her less time to actually do more stuff that was worth mentioning. Shattering Riku replica’s memories to protect Sora, standing up against her oppressors, helping Riku to beat Zexion… all that in just one game!
As for Xion, I’ve seen cut scenes that confirmed me exactly what the fans, including some that I know IRL, had said before. She’s another Kairi-like being, filled with enough angst to make even me roll my eyes. Mind you, I do like angsty stuff to certain degree, like Madoka Magica series. But when you amp it up too much into the same character, it just get ridiculous. Many KH fans, including myself, were looking forward to seeing Roxas interact with Axel and the rest of the organization. We didn’t need another Kairi extension with maxed out melodrama values to be added to that part of KH story.

On the contrary, I like both physically and/or mentally strong heroines so long as they’re believable. The thing with KH is that it’s not that good of a game series when it comes to character development. There are some believable, even genuinely touching cases here and there (points at Axel) but I’m sick and tired of the usual “A girl with a flawless, saint -like personality gets rescued a lot and also works as a magical cheerleader”-formula. If the character fails to come across as believable or even likable to me, then she’d better be able to kick some ass. If not, then I’ll say “Tough luck, I don’t really like her.” And this is exactly the case with Kairi. Xion on the other hand, was a lump of ansty clichés who stole the spotlight from the original cast. That fact, coupled with the game reviews that stated how the gameplay of 358/2 Days was "boring and repetitive" is what began to erode my interest in the series. The plot keeps getting more and more unnecessarily convoluted ("Plot, what plot?" could be said for Coded), Square is too lazy to even bother making new characters so they just keep recycling old ones...

But back to heroines, this is my conclusion: I’m not saying that there is just “One right way to make proper heroines.” I’m not demanding them to be fighters (even though I really like such characters) but rather to be believable or at least somewhat original instead of being clichéd archetypes.

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Sexiipup94 In reply to Sherval [2012-11-11 03:43:42 +0000 UTC]

Oh, haha, thanks for not deleting it after all. XP I hate chain letters.

A Mary-Sue aura? As I said earlier, Mary Sue is such a bias, almost undefined term by now, but I think I understand what you're trying to say with it. To be honest, though, he hinted depths and worries and her fears and how headstrong she is seem plenty to me. I'm not saying she couldn't deal with having more, but not everyone has a horrible, glaring flaw like you seem to be looking for-- many real people have more subtle flaws. And one of Kairi's flaws, probably the biggest one, that probably would count as her fatal flaw, in accordance to Sora's naivety and Riku's KH1 persona, is her relative weakness. That isn't just a meta thing that the designers did badly-- that is something that has affected her in-universe and she has been shown to want to try, but she can't because she is simply too weak. Hence, her headstrong, almost reckless behavior, when she knew full well that she wasn't as strong as her friends. I don't see why not needing a reason would be a necessity for a proper flaw, Riku's KH1 persona had a reason (his insecurities to no longer being the best, as he once thought he was, and his suspicions that Sora was a traitor, etc.). Those don't properly justify his actions, and neither do Kairi's situations, not completely. But she wanted to be out there with her boys.

I'll agree whole-heartedly. Riku has had the single most growth out of all the KH characters, but Kairi has grown as well, and him being more fleshed out makes her no less human.

Kairi doesn't have to be rescued 24/7, though. Sora saved her once in KH1-- and she was in no true danger as long as her heart was in him. In fact, her heart being with him kind of delayed the villains' plans and actually gave Sora time to stop them. She is weaker than her friends and is a Princess of Heart(which is why she was on the islands in the first place, so that was invoked), so she was in a position where she would need protection. And I would argue that the hallucinations were moreso “seeing” Kairi than her lifeless body was. Her heart held her personality, pushed Sora forward, showed him that scene. Her body's hand twitched slightly. Her heart isn't gone, it's with Sora-- she even calls out to him when Riku's about to strike, so she is present. Sora wasn't just saving her there, he was saving the world, and if the alternative had happened-- that is, her heart had never gone into Sora in the first place-- he would already have been too late. Kairi effectly and unknowingly had been a very effective spanner in the works. I'm not holding that as a triumph for her necessarily, because as I said, she hadn't tried. Her protecting him that time and giving him the Oathkeeper were not so small that they should be shoved aside, in my opinion. She is forced to stay on the sidelines, despite expecting to get to come along, by Sora, no less, but it was because of her that Sora could even say that then. And that Oathkeeper was the equivalent of the lady's favor-- insurance that her would come back, so to speak. As proactive as her position would allow her, and she had wanted to do more, if she had been allowed. Where she is not physically present, yes, she is still affecting the plot, but that's not part of her as a character. In KH2, she had grown, and those moments were showing her doing non-combative things that drastically affected the story, not so much as the author's saving throw, but in accordance with who she was. Although she had grown stronger, she had still just begun, and this was the final dungeon, so she was still in need of protection, but she was doing important things that only she would have been able to do, even without fighting. Riku would have continued hiding, he had made that clear. And Sora wasn't even the one saving her here. It wasn't too little, too late, it was a logical continuation of her character.

There's probably a pretty meta reason behind it, too, since after the battle Kairi was in a stance like she had fought-- she was in a dress. Choreographing her fighting in a dress would not have been easy, and would have been very restrictive. She was taking steps, and it was like Sora when he began his journey. Not too far of a leap-- which, unexplained, probably would be taken as a reason to call her a Mary Sue by many.

Actions, yes. Designs, perhaps, when they have some control over them. I guess on this we'll have to agree to disagree, because I find Kairi's inner strength and personality amazing, and what she has been able to do, despite her physical weakness, simply astonishes me. She has saved both her friends-- Sora when he was a heartless, Sora and Riku when they were trapped in the realm of darkness-- even though she cannot fight as well as them. She has given them hope and has been able to laugh and joke and accept them and grow, and that is something that really captivates me about her character. There's a lot there if you're willing to look. And although most of her character arc was not shown, she had one. She was more mature in KH, was starting that growth at the very end of KH1.

I don't know much about Tidus other than the fact that I thought his outfit was kind of cool and that he must have worked very hard to find anywhere that sold pants with uneven legs.

Namine's not more believable, both of the girls are very believable in their personality in accordance with their respective environments that they grew up in. Less time isn't the thing-- Kairi can't break people's minds just by yelling. Namine has unexplained powers that allowed her to reverse what she had already caused, in a way. Her powers are no better a source than Xion's existence, really. I don't find either inadequate, though. And Xion's personality and growth was shown mostly outside of the animated cutscenes. The missions and the clocktower scenes that weren't animated showed far more, since the cutscenes came from later in the game after much of that growth has already happened and her internal struggles, which are completely justified and not “emo”, have begun. I can't speak for expectations-- I didn't enter the fandom until Days was already out, so. However, Squeenix did as it seemed fit, and Roxas and Axel did interact and grow close. Roxas was best friends with Axel-- there wasn't much between him and the other members, and it was, indeed, planned that a girl his age would be his reason for leaving before Days was even developed. Fan's expectations didn't match Squeenix's plans, but Squeenix wouldn't have to change its plans for that.

I haven't seen that formula in KH once. Kairi is not perfect or saintly, she was rescued once or twice, depending on how you view it, and she was actually support, not just as a cheerleader, but with necessary actions that allowed the story to not just stop on a very depressing note. Kairi is believable, because she has grown up as a normal girl-- her personality is human and there is no reason she would have to be a very good fighter then, all things considered. Xion was not that, she was actually quite cheerful before the justified sadness, and then, out of what I believe to be a human selfishness and desire to live, delayed what she knew to be inevitable. I loved Days, so I can't say much about others hatred of the gameplay-- guess I'm weird. It's not convoluted, really, it's pretty easy to follow. Coded was pretty much filler-- until the end, which was genuinely important. And it had a very fun gameplay. They're not recycling characters, they have characters that resemble others for a number of reasons. They have different personalities because of the whole nature vs nurture thing, though. It's not just bunch of Kairis. Or a bunch of Soras, for that matter.

Both Xion and Kairi are believable and original-- Xion is a deconstruction of what you seem to be implying she is, and Kairi is not a proper, quiet princess, because she has quite a bit of spunk and will not be on the sidelines if she can help it. She's just smart enough to know when she has to step back.

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Sherval In reply to Sexiipup94 [2012-11-11 12:05:22 +0000 UTC]

My opinion of them remains the same: I've completed both of the main games multiple times and each time I found Kairi to be unrealistic to some degree and unimpressive on the whole. To me, Kairi is and will always be a traditional damsel in distress (when she's not in danger, she's more often than not in trouble or at least being protected/ searched for by someone). The developers have always pushed her to the sidelines from action for the majority of time just so that they could focus their main attention on the boys. Being physically weak isn't something that could be considered as a personality flaw. If I'd found Kairi to be an endearing character personality-wise, I wouldn't mind her physical weaknesses... Like I said, if the character fails to convince me with their actions or personality, they'd better make up for it with their fighting skills so that I could actually see them doing something worthy of my attention. Don't get me wrong though, I don't exactly hate Kairi, I just don't like her either. This icon pretty much sums it up .

Xion on the other hand, is a broken character with such an intensity of clichés and melodrama that I won't even bother with Days. I've read multiple reviews stating that the game play of said game is "More of the same old KH, only with more repetitive style than usual and with a weaker plot." Having played video games for over 14 years, I've learned that if multiple review sources start to suddenly give lower scores than usual for a game that is part of a respected series, then their opinion is often quite similar to mine should I bother to buy the said game.

While Square is of course allowed to go through their plans (and expected to, if they let fans dictate too much the game will lose its focus), they should also listen to their fans more when a notable amount of them are having issues with their choices. Especially now, that their games are no longer gaining as much praise as before (just look at the reviews they're giving to the latest Final Fantasy games). If the game developers can't please their audience enough, they're losing potential customers. While Xion didn't cause as much of a controversy as something like the ending of Mass Effect 3, I still think that Square should listen to people's opinions and keep them in mind while designing new characters so that they don't end up repeating the same mistakes again.

But like I said before to someone else, everyone has the right to have their own opinions about characters and franchises so long as they're civil about them. You're obviously much more into KH than I've been for years. And that's fine. You really like the game play as well as the plot and therefore have more interest to try to keep up with story that, in my honest opinion, is getting more and more unnecessary layers just because Square wants to milk more money from their fans. Coded is perfect example of this, using only worlds that have been visited multiple times before in previous games. To me, making a single game filled with recycled filler material with the excuse of handing out only one relevant plot element at the very end of the game is borderline lazy but above all, greedy. They might as well have added it to the beginning of a game they actually put some effort into...

My interest for KH series has pretty much waned. While I do find the basic game play good, especially in Birth by Sleep (which I could almost call "impressive"), I'm no longer that interested in the plot or the characters. That usually happens to me when the series obviously starts stalling on purpose to gain money at the expense of credibility and pacing. I liked the main entries and BBS, I still do, but I have only mild interest to actually try playing the Dream Drop distance or any further entries from the series. Mainly because the game play of the KH games has never been better than "good" to me. And if the plot starts to repeat itself while recycling the same archetypes for "new" characters (be it their looks or personality) as well as adding unnecessary elements to it, I've no longer have any reason to invest my hard earned money on these games. So I'll invest it in games like the Assassin's Creed 3 or the upcoming Sly Cooper: Thieves in time. Both of these being games from franchises that I've loved for years, especially Sly Cooper. Their game play, characters and plot development have really sucked me in with such an intensity that KH games have never achieved with me.

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Sexiipup94 In reply to Sherval [2012-11-12 04:20:32 +0000 UTC]

I'm not doing this to change your opinion, just to point out fallacies or incorrectness in what you say about the heroines. I respect your right to dislike them, and trust me, I wouldn't ever attack you for doing so. To that effect, whether or not you hate her are are ambivalent has no bearing on the discussion-- we're simply discussing the claims you made regarding the characters.

I still have yet to see exactly what you could mean by unrealistic. Kairi is a very realistic character, a kind of girl one might run into in real life, theoretically speaking. She is an excitable, playful, tomboyish, but friendly and slightly immature girl at the beginning of KH1. She's been shown to participate in some of the competitions with her friends (that race, for instance), but is not to their level. And, since she's not the one with a rivalry, she hasn't had reason to push herself to their level exactly. As her universe is practically torn apart, my goodness, the emotions she shows. Not to mention the hidden depths hinted at even before she left the island. A typical girl with hidden depths-- very realistic, very human. And in KH2, she's grown more mature, more thoughtful, perhaps more feminine, but is still the teasing, determined girl with a desire to help her friends. And she has clearly gotten stronger. A poor narrative choice, but her character arc has taken place-- or at least has progressed very far, we'll see if it's expanded upon more in subsequent games. And she is not the typical damsel in distress, as I've pointed out earlier. In KH1, she was in no danger until her heart was back in her body. They had no plans to do anything to her body, after all, and any other plans they had were postponed until her heart arrived. Then she saved Sora when he was helpless-- Sora played the damsel role straighter than she, yet gets no flack. She was willing to be a human shield for her friend, the most she could do in that situation, yet still, she isn't proactive? Riku was saved from the darkness and searched for for a longer time than Kairi, and was kind of a jerk in KH1, and while he has grown, it isn't fair to ignore that completely. For all games that were numbered, she couldn't have been in the focus-- Sora often wasn't even the focus. And in the numbered games, Sora-- and, in KH3D, Riku-- are the focus. Kairi could not have come along, but she was integrated into the plot well considering her position and skills.

And also, to say that fighting abilities can make up for poor characterization is practically belittling those who can't fight, since it seems to be hard to count as a good character without that? Both Kairi and Xion showed deep, altruistic, yet human traits-- good personalities-- and because Kairi can't fight it doesn't count? I don't think I understand. Please, explain to me what it is you see in Aqua's personality that allows her to pass ? And just her personality, please. Perhaps I'll understand, then.

Xion was a fighter, so that can't be what was wrong with her. The "emo" part of her personality you keep referring to from the cutscenes is not a good representation of her, though. On missions, during the acual gameplay, is where her personality first developed. The sadness she felt later was justified by circumstances and we say the change in her-- but not in cutscenes.

Reviews are subject to bias, I truly can't consider them a replacement for a personal assessment, myself. I am sorry.

Square has a plan for the plot, and that's not hard to see-- if they changed to please the fans, that plan would be tampered with and I can't see that ending well. And Coded wasn't made simply for greedy intentions. It was a very fun gameplay, with good gameplay-- I'm not the only one who thinks the gameplay was good, people who are far better judges have said it as well-- and the lesson was built upon. The end is just what connects it to the plot.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear you've lost interest in the series, it really is picking up well, if 3D is any indication. I can see what you're saying, though. :3

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Sherval In reply to Sexiipup94 [2012-11-14 00:47:12 +0000 UTC]

Perhaps the biggest reason I've seen Kairi as an unrealistic character is simply due the lack of any major internal conflict/ character growth. Yes, she does mature a bit by KH2, but aside from that, she's just seems too... "balanced", for the lack of better word. I mean, she's a teenager, going through a rather confusing phase of one's life, and having all this hullabaloo around her surely ain't helping things. Yet she pretty much keeps her cool 24/7, never showing any signs of notable internal conflict or introspect (like Sora or Riku). So okay, one could say that she simply is "that balanced", something that's not entirely impossible when I think about it. So I may have been wrong about her being completely unrealistic character... But due the lack of any real conflicts or major character development, she isn't that original or memorable to me. As for my opinion about her not being "a proactive character", however...

To me, "damsel in distress" doesn't necessarily have to be in exact danger all the time, being "in serious trouble" suffices as well. In KH1, Kairi's heart was safe within Sora, yes, but as such it was separated from her body which was left in comatose state. Now, having one's heart stuck inside a wrong body, forcing the said wielder to use drastic measures to return it (and destroy himself in the process)... Doesn't that sound like "serious trouble" to you? Aside from restoring Sora back to human form, she only gave her Oath Keeper to him and was then thrown to the sidelines because the writers couldn't bother to give her more active role. I'm not saying that she should have necessarily battled in KH1 or anything, but they could have written her to do SOMETHING ELSE AS WELL, instead of making her stay safe in Traverse Town. In KH2, Axel tries to kidnap her and she ends up following Pluto to Twilight town... Understandably, Sora doesn't take this news well since now both of his friends are missing again. Then, after doing nothing important plot-wise while staying in there, Kairi finally gets kidnapped for real and ends up being imprisoned... until she gets rescued by Namine and Riku.

NOW THIS, is my main beef with Kairi, despite making it sound like it was her personality (well, I still don't find her to be an interesting, memorable character, but anyway): She's constantly in danger/trouble, she's repeatedly being fussed over by either Sora or Riku (mainly the former) and when she isn't, she's more often than not kept in the sidelines, doing absolutely nothing. The first two aspects apply to Namine as well, she's more often in danger/trouble than safe and there are multiple people genuinely worrying about her safety, but she certainly doesn't get pushed to the sidelines the way Kairi does. That, and I find her personality more memorable, more likable and again, realistic. I said this before to some other user as well, but I'll repeat it anyway: Kairi MAY be redeemed a bit in my eyes if Square actually puts some effort into her by making her more interactive with the story. Now that I think about it, I would be more lenient towards Kairi had they made some game play involving her in Kh2. A puzzle-solving side quest perhaps? Have her spend some days with the real Hayner & co. like Roxas did with their virtual counterparts? Hey, they (the folks at Square) had the time to make the Little Mermaid world to be completely about musicals, it wouldn't have been that much different to give Kairi some screen time by making her interact with folks of Twilight town. That way, she could have been more involved with other characters as well as the players themselves.

I never said that Aqua's personality was the thing that made her my favourite female character, did I? The thing is, she's the only female main character, along with Xion, who doesn't get the wallflower or damsel in distress treatment (but unlike Xion, they didn't make her wallow in angst)... that, and she can fight. It is probably the latter reason I like her the most, along with okay personality and notable interaction with plot.

And also, to say that fighting abilities can make up for poor characterization is practically belittling those who can't fight, since it seems to be hard to count as a good character without that? Actually, there are multiple female characters that I happen to like despite their poor or nonexistent fighting capabilities.

Ren from Elemental Gelade, is a powerful human-like weapon (an Edel Raid), who can cause great damage but only when she has fused with a human. Otherwise, she can only use a single spell to defend herself by temporarily blinding her attackers. Despite this, she gets captured a couple of times during the series because she knows no real combat that she could use in her humanoid form. I like her cool demeanor and social awkwardness that's related to her justified distrust of humans. However, she doesn't hesitate to bluntly state her opinion about something when the situation requires it.

Marin from Brigadoon anime, is constantly in trouble either because of monsters (or humans) that try to kill her or simply due to some of the shittiest classmates I've ever seen in an anime. While she does gain an item that allows her to protect herself to some extent, it is only around the halfway point of the series (it also takes her a few episodes to realize how to use it). And even then, she usually needs help from her protector Melan Blue. What I like about Marin is that she is a very realistic depiction of 13-year-old. While a spirited and brave girl who stands up to her bullies, even prevents them from being killed by her protector, she is not a saint. She misunderstands her friend's good intentions, leaving her behind in anger after saying some hurtful words. She even resorts to stealing food, after being through so much that she no longer cares about the morality of such an act.

Rebecca from Assassin's Creed, while not a main character, is both funny and friendly in cutscenes, a perfect foil to Shaun whose constant ass-hattery towards the main character can get on player's nerves. Rebecca definitely isn't the fighter type, considering how the player character (Desmond) and another assassin Lucy are the ones who have to defend both her and Shaun when their base gets attacked. Despite this, Rebecca's positive attitude and funny dialogue make up for it. If the player cracks the code for her e-mail address in AC:botherhood, they can find out that underneath her upbeat exterior she has plenty of anxiety, making her even more fleshed out character. It is a shame that she doesn't have that much screen time compared to Lucy, though .

As for Xion, well, a part of me would like to play days to see if I can completely, honestly agree with the hatred the fanbase has going for her. However, even without doing so, I can honestly say that I don't like the fact that she is yet another Kairi-like character for reasons I mentioned before. It just isn't original anymore, period. But like I said before, if multiple game reviews state that a game play is "repetitive" or "boring", then it likely is... I've learned that the hard way with games like Sly Cooper 3 and Jak & Daxter: the Lost frontier. I hoped that my opinion about the said games would be different but after playing them myself, I had to agree on the faults each of those reviews had mentioned about the said games. Which is why I'm more likely to watch walkthrough videos of Days. Same theory applies to multiple accounts stating how much angst Xion has going for her, along with the cutscenes that I've seen. Personally, I can't stand characters that angst constantly (like Cloud from FF Advent Children-movie onwards, or Leo from Zone of Enders, good grief). It would have been one thing if Xion had been a separate character, but making her a Kairi look-alike with black hair? That's adding an insult to an injury.

Coded had good gameplay perhaps, but that doesn't justify the fact that it presented only a small major plot element that could have been just as easily explained with less detail. Same goes, even more so, for the fact they didn't bother to add any new locations but instead opted to only use ones players have seen multiple times before in the previous installments. I don't care if this is vital for sake of coded's plot or not, they could have focused all that effort on some other KH game with different locations and more relevant plot. Otherwise, it's a painfully obvious, half-hearted try to gain easy money. I certainly didn't ask for a whole game to be made to explain what was said in letter shown at the end of KH2, especially one with such a weird and incoherent plot as Coded (yet another reason why I won't bother with DS Kh games). Honestly, I tried to read a summary of the said plot from KH wiki -with normal pace and actual concetration, mind you- only to reach the end of the article and say out loud "What the fuck did I just read?". I read it again, with even slower pace and more concetration this time and then came to conclusion that the only things worth understanding were the battle with Roxas (fanbait much?) and that letter thing, that's it.

But as I said before, I wouldn't say this game series to have plenty of memorable, very realistic characters/character development/interaction. Like how a 14-year-old teenage boy suddenly wants to be a king of a pack consisting of female lions??? C'mon Square (though knowing Sora, he probably doesn't even KNOW what a male lion is supposed to do with his pack >_>... There are games where it's much worse, yes, but there are also ones where it's vastly better.

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Sexiipup94 In reply to Sherval [2012-12-01 19:55:56 +0000 UTC]

WOW I'm late! School stuff.

I've actually noted how Kairi has seemed to show signs of inner conflict, I think. She chooses to keep smiling. As evidenced by the hesitation before she answered Sora about whether or not she remembered her home, where her smile even faded for a moment before she brought it back. And also by her revealing that she had been afraid to go on the raft journey, but was ready now-- she was worried, scared, but she didn't tell her friends and didn't let it bring her down. She's not so secretive that she's simply a Stepford smiler, but she does have inner conflict that she doesn't seem to want to burden others with. She clearly does have it, though. And the facial expressions she makes after this fiasco tears her world apart, well, they're certainly proof that she's not always as carefree as she seems-- and yet, she goes back to smiling and puts on a brave face, because what else can she do to push Sora on? She frowns and hesitates before running when Riku gives her an opening, but she nods and gives him a look that seemed to show her confidence and trust in him before she left. And it was more than a little, I think-- you're not giving her credit. Even if she is still largely the same girl, she has undoubtedly grown and has at least begun a character arc, if it didn't completely occur already. That is her character development, her growth. And those are her internal conflicts, her worries, her smile. Memorable is entirely up to opinion, for me she is the most memorable. But I don't see how she's so unoriginal? What I've listed in this paragraph and the rest of her personality are uniquely hers.

She wasn't in serious trouble, though-- the rest of the universe may have been, but she was completely safe inside Sora's heart, as you noted. Her comatose body was in no immediate danger. Not serious trouble to Kairi, Sora's the one in serious trouble, no? And if it wasn't there, well, no one would be in trouble, the bad guys would have won and the apocalypse (by which I mean the keyblade war Xehanort was trying to gather the pieces for) would probably already be underway? You act as though that was so little. Aside from saving the worlds, what did Sora do? No, Kairi saving Sora wasn't directly to that same scale, but it was bringing back the universe's last hope, it was the most she could do, it was self-sacrificial, as far as she would have known, and it was a lot. And her giving Sora the good-luck charm as a lady's favor wasn't so small, either-- a lady's favor is given to her knight as a sort of insurance of their return. She couldn't go, she wasn't strong enough. You're pushing for realism in her character, but that was the most realistic and logical form of action she could have taken, considering her skills and upbringing. To do what? The game was nearing the end, what was there that she could have done? Why is running into the trio that tells Sora she was kidnapped isn't important, plot-wise? Yes, she was rescued there, Sora, Namine, and Riku have all also been rescued in a helpless spot. Did they try? Yes, just as Kairi tried. Could they do anything much on their own? Not really. Riku saved Sora, Sora saved Namine, Mickey saved Riku. In a game so focused on friendship, a friend in a compromising position getting help isn't something so horrible-- someone too weak to fight their way out of a situation isn't so horrible. It's realistic, in a way.

We both remember so much about her for being so forgettable. I just thought of that, hehe. Kairi's had relivence, but, as I said before, she was not gifted with magical powers or a weapon, so what she efected was a lot considering her position. Namine's powers have yet to be fully explained and at the moment seem a little unrealistic, for lack of a better term-- you prefer a character be unrealisticly powered if it allows them to do things they couldn't do otherwise? I don't say this to bash Namine, I just don't think you're comparing on a very fair basis. And I still don't see how Namine is any more realistic than Kairi. Both of them have realistic personalities. A non-playable character can only be redeemed by making them playable? NPCs can be good characters, and what you suggested as a way to make her interactive would have distracted from Sora's story, the main point of that game. And it would not have contributed anything to the plot. It would be one of the things they'd likely cut out for time restraints, anyway. The musical was in a world Sora visited-- part of Sora's story, so it wasn't detracting from the game.

You mentioned liking her personality. If there is any other reason she is your favorite, it would seem somewhat shallow? Her role and her ability to fight? Not the best basis for a character, but I respect that.

As a mentioned earlier, Kairi isn't a saint. And she misunderstood Riku, she's said things that were less than tactful. From what I gather, though, it would seem the biggest issue with Kairi is how little interaction the player gets with her, in spite of how often she is mentioned and how she gets in danger at times. Is that right? Because of how she isn't directly fighting and how much of the game is focus on Sora's interactions with out treasured childhood heroes, I don't know how well that could be done. The game is pretty heavy on cutscenes already, makig more just to increase her screen time wouldn't do her any real favors. Or the plot, perhaps. She's going to have a more direct role later, but since she wasn't traveling with Sora or Riku, she hasn't thus far.

I'm afraid I'm completely lost because Kairi has a somewhat snarky yet uplifting personality and deep inner strength and human flaws, just as those girls did, but she's not as good a character?

The fact that she is Kairi-like is well integrated into the plot, if she had come from absolutely no where, that would have been abysmally worse, trust me. Much of the Kingdom Hearts fandom incorrectly portrays the characters: Riku(not nearly that broody or cool or possessive or confident), Sora(who does not have ADHD), Kairi(who is not a witch, nor is she that girly, she's a mix of tomboy and girly girl, among other things), Xion(who is QUITE cheerful and happy before she got a genuine and huge reason to be sad. She even tried to ignore the fact that Saix was cruel and just wanted to be with her only friends, but she also too her job seriously, and there were sometimes things that kept her from doing as well as she would have like), Terra(he's trusting, sure, but no more so that the others. He's not gullible, he just meets all the wrong people by bad luck. With Xehanort, though...), etc. Trusting them on a game's features are one thing, trusting them on a character is a whole other thing entirely.

No, actually, that was probably the best way to go about it, with the exceptiong of throwing a random cutscene about it into a different game. It built up to the ending.

As I've said, I would. The characters are very human, and look how much we bother remember~ I, as a 14 year old, would have liked to rule a pack of lions, don't know about you, but I think it would have been awesome. KH will always be among my favorite, it does characters and development well, especially with Riku. Ironically, Sora (and Aqua, IMO) have the least amount of character growth of the main characters, despite being the main main characters.

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Sherval In reply to Liss4D [2012-09-07 20:06:45 +0000 UTC]

im learning not to get annoyed at people who hate her, after all, everyone has different opinions

If only more people would do just that then the internet would be a whole lot nicer than it currently is :/
I mean sure, I also get ticked off at people who totally bash my personal favourite characters, but I don't take that frustration on them by insulting them on a personal level like some people do *points at a certain user who also commented on this very deviation*. I merely try to defend my opinions as much as possible while also trying to somewhat understand the opposing opinion as well i.e. think why that person might think this way. As for Xion, the thing that ticked me most at first was the fact that she was the 2nd Kairi extension and a third version of that same character overall... Looks like the folks at Square are running low on creativity when it comes to character design/backstories. I bet the people who dislike her would be at least slightly more tolerant of her existence if she was a separate character instead of another Kairi look-alike.

And yes, that's also one of the main reasons why I like Aqua the most (along with her likable personality and the fact that she can fight).

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Sherval In reply to SoraandKairiforever1 [2012-06-15 06:58:38 +0000 UTC]

She is! The best female character in the whole franchise!

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SoraandKairiforever1 In reply to Sherval [2012-06-15 13:39:23 +0000 UTC]

IKR? =

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Sherval In reply to YTPDude [2012-04-12 23:24:51 +0000 UTC]

I express my disapproval towards the character you happen to like and you start insulting me? Really mature, kiddo... Just because I hate Kairi as a character doesn't give you the right to start throwing f-bombs around. Do that to random people in real life and you could loose a tooth or two, you know...

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YTPDude In reply to Sherval [2012-04-13 00:10:35 +0000 UTC]

I know.

(But I choose not to listen.)

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Sherval In reply to YTPDude [2012-04-13 00:34:47 +0000 UTC]

Suit yourself... However, the anonymity provided by the internet doesn't give you the right to be any less respective towards anyone, even if their opinion is different from yours. Personally, I hate furry art and artists that turn my favourite cartoon/video game characters into "inflated" fat balloons. But guess what? I'm not posting spiteful flame comments to their artworks/user profiles. It's called "being considerate" and "mature". My policy is this: they're allowed to like and post stuff as long as the DA rules allow it. A very basic survival tip on Deviantart: "If you don't the said artwork at all, then move on and find something that you DO like. No need to stick around and waste your time on the said artwork."

I'm entitled to think "that I hate Kairi" just as much as you're allowed to like her. So while you may not approve my opinion of her (just as much as I don't approve yours), at least you should show people enough respect by not sinking so low as to insult them personally just because they criticize the character you happen to like. Applying the same logic you've shown so far, I should be insulting every Kairi fan I come across despite the fact that they've done nothing to me personally... Ask yourself: Would it really be worth it?

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YTPDude In reply to Sherval [2012-04-13 00:45:23 +0000 UTC]

Alright, here's what's going down: What pisses me off is the fact that EVERYONE hates Kairi. What I'm trying to do is convince people she's not so bad. It's just what I do. I'm the kind of person who chooses to not just sit there and have to take what he doesn't like. I rant about it. Plus, I don't think hate art against a character is allowed on dA. So there.

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Sherval In reply to YTPDude [2012-04-13 01:14:53 +0000 UTC]

I've seen plenty of artists who happen to like Kairi or think that she's "Ok". Maybe you just haven't found them? And as for the hate art not being allowed here, the deviantart help desk defines it like this ""Hate Speech" or "Hate Art" typically is clearly racist or bigoted and often promotes genocide, or the killing or destruction of an identifiable individual, race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, or other specific group.
Hate propaganda can also promote the slavery or torture of an individual or group or it may advocate inflicting other conditions which would bring about the destruction of the group.

There you go, the term "hate art" basically means viciously lashing out/ gathering support against real people, not fictional ones. Needless to say, personally insulting other users is also something that isn't looked kindly upon here. And BTW, if my rant about Kairi would be considered as "hate art", then what about all the "anti-yaoi" rants and stamps YOU seem to support?

But really, this is an art site, and artists tend to depict both things they like and things they don't as a way to convey their feelings and opinions about the said subjects. And unlike some rapid Kairi haters, I'm not referring her as "a bitch that gets between Sora and Riku" because canonically, the said pairing doesn't even exist . Nor do I stoop so low as to refer her as "a whore" or any of the sort in my drawing OR in its description. I merely stated that she suffers (in my opinion) from two annoying cliches: her personality is too flawless and she constantly gets into trouble. It was still ok to me in the KH1, but in KH2 it was getting old. However, her character may be redeemed in my eyes IF the writers of the KH3 actually have interest to make her either more humane and/or skilled at fighting in KH3.

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YTPDude In reply to Sherval [2012-04-13 01:19:20 +0000 UTC]

Well, judging by 3D's secret ending, Kairi will be playable. So there you go. I have seen artists like this, I was just attempting to make a point. I'm 13 years old, and I have a rather implusive personality. Sorry if I offended you.

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Sherval In reply to YTPDude [2012-04-13 01:37:17 +0000 UTC]

That's okay, I'm glad that you apologized . But remember the golden rule "If you don't like it, just move on." Though in case of Sly Cooper fanart, the search pages are so filled with fetish junk that I'm seriously considering about making "a fetish- free Sly Cooper club". That way, I would have a safe haven where I could browse Sly Cooper fanart that wouldn't make me roll my eyes every 5 seconds or so. Speaking of art clubs, I wouldn't be surprised to find a Kairi supporting art club from this place (given the sheer size of this site).

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Sherval In reply to pokeman122 [2011-03-12 08:09:40 +0000 UTC]

Well technically she's a villain so I didn't include her... But my opinion about her would be something like "Meh, she's passable, I guess."

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Taxima In reply to Sherval [2013-10-22 02:39:00 +0000 UTC]

Amusingly, I can imagine a drawing of her flipping us the bird for that grade. It'd be partially in-character for her.

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pokeman122 In reply to silkiechan [2011-03-10 02:53:16 +0000 UTC]

Wouldn't Sora qualify as a Marty-Stu? Not to be rude, but considering there's a guy, who goes around visiting/befriending all beloved Disney Characters, plus the fact he had cheated death in one case, thus producing Roxas.

Only reason she's created (story-wise) is to kill and replace Roxas (explains why both use light), after all, didn't a member say they enevr intended on ahving more than 13 members?

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localorange In reply to silkiechan [2011-02-24 03:32:46 +0000 UTC]

I tend to twitch when I hear people sob about Xion's fate. She. Was. A. PUPPET. She wasn't even human! She was just a nuisance getting in the way of Sora waking up!

That being said, Sora apparently has to "end her torment," among with the millions of other people (that are actual humans) that he has to save (that I think are way more important -coughTerracough). I've thought about it - and the only way I can think of "ending Xion's torment" is to make Sora/Kairi canon. Like, with a kiss in a cutscene. I mean - that's all Xion is, right? Sora's leaked memories of his uber important relationship with Kairi.

I'm more concerned about Ven/Sora's fate. It's like figuring out how to peel M&M's from a Mars bar without harming the bar - it just doesn't happen. Or maybe Eraqus can sacrifice himself for Ven? I mean - he's "in torment" because he turned his keyblade on Ventus AND he couldn't prevent Terra from...ending up where he did.

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Sherval In reply to Mrs-Yuki-Uchiha [2011-02-13 05:26:08 +0000 UTC]

Thank you.I like that song too even though it's kinda overused in AMVs XD.

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Mrs-Yuki-Uchiha In reply to Sherval [2011-02-13 05:32:09 +0000 UTC]

lols. I haven't used it in an AMV. xDDD Then again, I haven't made an AMV in about a year and a half. xDDD /shot

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