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Tzoli — Ansaldo Big Gun Cruiser Design for Russia
#big #cruiser #design #gun #italian #navy #russia #soviet #warship #anslado
Published: 2018-01-14 16:03:57 +0000 UTC; Views: 25887; Favourites: 114; Downloads: 179
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Description
I've been asked by commander Shas'o'Frosty to draw this warship with alternative versions for the Italian Navy.Not much is known about this cruiser design only it's history of choice:
By the mid 1930's Joseph Stalin ordered to develop an Oceanic Red Navy for the Soviet Union and starting of 1936 a large number of warship designs were produced by the engineers and design bureaus of the Soviet Union, including submarines, destroyers, cruisers and battleship, with later carriers included as well. But the Soviet industry lacked the technology and knowledge to build such ships and thus it searched abroad to acquire the necessary material, such as plans and even complete ships to quick start the Industry. Italy, especially the famous firm Ansaldo at Genoa offered designs as well as plans and even built ships for the Soviet Navy. Built ships include the Dzerzhinskiy and Kirov Guard Ships while modified plans of the Raimondo Montecuccoli were provided for the Soviet shipyards and the cruisers of the Kirov class were built based on them.
In 1936 Ansaldo offered a cruiser killer design armed with 250mm guns with 130 and 100mm ones as secodnary and tertiary guns, with 45mm AA guns. As you can see the guns are of Russian origin while the hull is Italian, the design also offered two catapults with 4 seaplanes.
This warship design is a bit diffcult to accurately classify:
On one hand it is close to the battlecruisers as it's tonnage is more than twice than contemporary heavy cruisers even that of the Japanese and having primary as well as secondary guns, heavy and light AA guns, large size and good armour.
On the other hand very high speed of 69km/h, the usage of torpedo tubes, and larger number of seaplanes with the mission of cruiser hunting puts them closer to the heavy cruiser category.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 241,5 x 28 x 7,45m
Displacement: 22.000tons (standard), 26.700tons (full load)
Armour: 90mm Deck, 220mm Belt
Engines: Unknown
Speed: 69km/h (37knots)
Armaments:
3x3 250mm/55 Guns
6x2 130mm/50 Pattern 1936 Guns (B-2LM mounting)
6x2 100mm/50 Minizini Pattern 1928/30 DP-AA Guns
32x 45mm Pattern 1932 AA Guns (I've chosen 8x2,16x1) (single 21-K and twin 41-K mountings)
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (Beriev Be-2)
Two other hypothetical versions armament as follows:
Italian version with Italian guns:
3x3 253mm/55 Ansaldo Model 1936 Guns
6x2 120mm/50 OTO Model 1933 Guns
6x2 100mm/50 OTO Model 1928 DP-AA Guns
8x2 37mm/54 Breda Model 1932/1938 AA Guns
16x2 20mm/65 Breda Model 1932 AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (IMAM Ro.43)
Modified Italian version of different guns and mid/late war AA armament
3x3 253mm/55 Ansaldo Model 1936 Guns
6x2 135mm/45 Ansaldo Model 1938 Guns
6x2 90mm/50 Ansaldo Model 1939 AA Guns
14x2 37mm/54 Breda Model 1932/1938 AA Guns
24x2 20mm/65 Breda Model 1932 AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (IMAM Ro.43)
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Comments: 79
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So what's you opinion on Venezia with the most massively handicapped gun turret I have ever seen.
That one turret that can't load its guns when taking the centerline position because all the guns have to be elevated when pointing forward.
and is rendered useless when one gun's elevating mechanism gets jammed at loading elevation and the turret can't train
to the other side because the gunhouse of Turret 1 is in the way.
It's a real pity because your design would have been gorgeous in the game.
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As I do not play with World of Warships I do not know, but it is a completly made up design and not even the best, even the previous two designs aren't fully historical (lacks the twin 90mm guns in the 100mm Minizini mount) But the issue you states are present on the Mogami on CA mode, as when I last played it many years ago the barrel just went through the first turret.
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"the barrel just went through the first turret."
There's still clipping with Mogami and Ibuki 3D models on the World of Warships wiki site sporting the 203 mm gun.
But I think raising the guns of the 2nd turret at zero position would have been an issue irl
since the 203 mm gun is about 70 cm longer than the 155 mm gun.
I can't find clear and high res pictures of a Mogami class cruiser armed with the 203 mm gun to confirm.
But seeing the tight fit of the 155 mm gun in this photo.
A gun that's 70 cm longer wouldn't fit. (unless they push the gun further in the turret which creates other problems
like less space inside the turret / barbette to load larger and longer shells)
Maybe we'll see the Ansaldo cruiser as a premium just like Alaska at T9.
Premium = money.
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The 2nd turret's guns were rested in an angle in the CA form:
marekj655.blogspot.com/p/blog-…
search for Suzuya and you will sea the image of Mogami's forward turrets with 20cm guns
cannot post the direct image because DA is still stupid and thinks about many pages as spams...
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Magnífico trabajo, como siempre. Un cordial saludo.
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//This warship design is a bit diffcult to accurately classify://
Grandcruiser?)
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Which is Big cruiser or Large Cruiser as I translate it so essentially Battlecruiser
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For the 3rd proposal were the secondary guns the same weapons as mounted on the 'Capitani Romani' class cruisers?
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Hmmm...I think I would classify this ship as a large cruiser: something inbetween a heavy cruiser and a battlecruiser. Some Battlecruisers have torpedoes like O class and Scharnhorst class as well as the same role of hunting down cruisers and some heavy cruisers have thick armour (Des Monies and Baltimore) as well as having secondary guns. Really, this ship is similar to the Project 66 cruiser design of the Russian navy. Maybe go look that up and compare the two.
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Project 66 is more of a heavy cruiser similar tonnage but the armament are consist of 220mm guns.
Large cruiser is just an American fancy name for a Battlecruiser. Alaska classified as such as it's design evolution came from cruisers and not from battleships. (The same evolution led to the Baltimore class Heavy Cruisers).
Probably the best designation is Big Gun Cruiser or Light Battlecruiser. Though I use the Big Gun Cruiser designation for the Deutschland type warships.
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Really? According to some sources the tonnage was around 30,000 tonnes for the Project 66, which is in line with other ships I would call large cruisers like the P class and the D class.
Andyeah, I've always considered the Alaskas as battlecruisers and instead use the term large cruiser to refer to ships like the P class and the Project 66.
The Deustchland class certainly were big gun cruisers, though I simply refer to them as heavy cruisers to save time. Or Pocket battlecruisers if I feel informal XD
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Yes tonnage size it's quite large of 26.000tons standard and 30.750tons full, but the armament of 220mm DP main and 130mm DP-AA guns it's more like a beefed up Des Moines
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Fair point. Though one does have to wonder how the Germans were able to design the D class with 25,000 tonnes and have around 8inches of belt armour while the P class at 28,000 tonnes with the same firepower and practicually identical speed couldonly mount 4inches of belt armour
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P class is much faster having 61km/h max speed with a larger engine of 165.000shp also got a longer range of 46.000km instead of the 32.000 of the Deutschalnds. Such large Diesel engines could take up much weight. See this table how speed effects ship size or displacement:
How to design your warship
You can change dimensions for much larger engine
Also D had 220mm Belt and 80mm deck while P had 120mm belt and 70mm deck
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I see. So the P class focused more on range and speed while the D class focused more on armour protection on a slightly smaller displacement.
Which one did you think was the better overall design of the two?
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Difficult to answer. KMS Admiral Graf Spee could not lose it's pursuers though he could force them to maintain distance but not enough as she too received hits. With superior speed the P could make a better distance and even escape. Both the York and Leander classes could steam at 60km/h while the Deutschland class max speed was 53km/h now the P's 61km/h would be enough for her to dictate the battle and not the British squadron.
On the other hand the D class could take more pounding but she would always be shadowed by the British and doomed if reinforcments arrive, for the P she has a chance to escape if she could shoot down the British scout planes. Note, neither sghips had radars at that time.
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True. One is better for raiding the oceans, while the other is more fit to engage enemy ships. I guess it depends on the targets. If they are lone merchant ships scattered around, the P class seems more fit to sink them. If the target is more heavily protected convoys (not that well protected with like say a battleship), then the D class might be able to engage the convoy.
Both classes fix problems with the Deutschland class: D class the armour and the P class the speed
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All three was best used as convoy raiders
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Indeed. If only Germany built more of them XD
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Well 3 D's were intended to be built after the Deutschlands
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I heard. But they were eventually cancelled to make way for the Scharnhorst class. Makes me wonder if they built the D class instead of the Admiral Hipper class, what things would've changed
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This was asked on this forum:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/allthe…
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Hmm. Interesting read. Thanks.
BTW, what were these proposal designs between Admiral Graf Spee and Scharnhorst? I'm now curious/
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They are mixing up the D class and the P class with the Deutschland preliminaries of the Zenker designs
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Yeah that makes sense.
I've always wondered what those designs would look like if they were built. The Yorck in WoWS is one such design, but then there was the 1928 Battlecruiser design as well. Wonder how they would look lie if they were modernised XD
My guess, in a similar way to Admiral Scheer and the Konigsberg
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Very interesting design, never heard of this but I did know the Italians were helping the Russians...
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More like aiding. Italy always could used foreign investments to enhance it's economy.
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I thought 'UP-41' at first, until I noticed the secondary turrets looked much too large if the main turrets' guns had been 16"/40.6cm.
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I did 
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