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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-10-14 21:38:17 +0000 UTC]

lol... a little young? She would have been in her early teens in reality. Girls were often married around 13 or 14... as soon as they hit puberty. But I know what you mean. Most people personify her as at least 20... makes us feel more comfy I guess.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-10-15 00:21:28 +0000 UTC]

Well, the reality probably was way different from the assumed conceptions we have from art and the like. As I was once told, the historical Jesus life was probably something more like "Life of Brian" than what the New Testament states. Another vision of that times, this one really caustic, was the one portrayed by Michael Moorcock (Yes, the Elric guy ) in his book "Behold the man", although it would probably be considered offensive by some christians...

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-10-15 01:05:32 +0000 UTC]

It definately would have been interesting to actually be there and know first hand what it was like... I've never seen Life of Brian, so I can't make the comparison. But in regards to the New Testament I choose to believe it is as accurate as possible... although I'm sure that Jesus had his days where he just hung out with the guys, cracked jokes, and thought that women were pretty... I imagine we will have quite a good time with him in heaven.

I'll have to take a look at "Behold the Man." I like to take a look at what "some Christians" find offensive... I figure that I'm solid enough in my faith to look at things that aren't "mainstream" Christian. I probably won't buy it... God is God no matter what we think... but it can be enlightening to see how other people percieve Jesus and God.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-10-15 07:02:58 +0000 UTC]

Well, Life of Brian is a crack of a movie, and got #1 in best comedies lists a couple times, so it's always worth the view. Behol the man, on the other hand, while being a very good book, is not for everyone for the vision it portraits. I forgot to clarify, but it's not a dissertation, rather a SF book, in wich the protagonist travels back in time to Jesus' days, and gets to know the events first hand, it's not meant to be "the lost truth" or anything like that, just a critique behind a novel. I myself consider Jesus from the historical point of view, and see him as a revolutionary, something between Gandhi and BraveHeart, to say the truth (and yes, I know they're quite different, but I think he was a complicated person)

Besides, the mention of having a good time in heaven has intrigued me. How is your vision of heaven? Because, you know, if we get to believe the writings, people in heaven is supposed to no recognize each other and only amaze and delight at the glory of God. That really sounds pretty sad to me, I mean, being with your loved one for all eternity without even recognizing her/him...

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-10-15 21:13:05 +0000 UTC]

oooo, this is excellent! I've been needing something to look into, and now I can look into this! I believe that you are somewhat misguided on the Biblical portrayal of heaven... I'll do some quickie research and get back to you soon! YAY! I love intellegent conversations.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-10-15 22:39:18 +0000 UTC]

Well, I'm glad I got your interest

You'll probably know the site already, but just in case, go to [link] , where you'll probably have what you're looking for. I bet you'll like the site

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-10-16 01:22:25 +0000 UTC]

Hmm... interesting sight... I'll definately be going there often. But, I'll probably stick to the plain old Bible and my concordance for this discussion, since we're talking about the Biblical heaven.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-10-16 10:59:14 +0000 UTC]

Well, I was talking to biblical heaven too, (maybe I got it wrong) and the site has various biblical texts, (even apocriphals) but I think the notion of lose of oneself in heaven serves a clear purpose, because...

What happens if you get married, lose your partner, and get married again?

You loved both, but when you go to heaven, who will you stay with? You loved both, but even if there's no sex involved, the relationship one has with his/her loved one isn't a fraternal one, precisely...

Is just my personal theory, but I think that's the reason behind it, and I really think that what I said is what the Bible says, though I'm not an expert in that matter precisely...

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-10-19 23:44:24 +0000 UTC]

This is what I have always believed... though I haven't had the time to find the textual support for it as work has been crazy this past week.

You are right in that there will be no marriage. It does say that specifically. That is why we are allowed to re-marry if our spouse dies, because there will be no marriage, as we understand it, in heaven.

However, the bible doesn't say that we will not recognize each other at all. Things will just be very different. Our relationships with each other will be perfect, and our first love will be God... what we consider love here on earth will seem like small potatoes compared to the love of God. But, we will also love each other with a more perfect love.

The Bible says that we will worship and glorify God in heaven, but that doesn't mean we will be standing around singing hymns all day long. Worship comes in all forms. As long as one is doing what he is doing for the glory of God, that is worship. The misrepresentation of the word "worship" to mean "sing" is totally a new connotation. And, an interesting fact, not once in the Bible are the angels said to be specifically singing... they worship and praise... but the greek and hebrew don't specify that it is with song. I like to think that the composition of music is a gift that God gave to humans exclusively... but that's a side point that I just find interesting.

Anyway, I'll try to find some bibilical evidence for my theories... I'm sure I learned about this in Bible collgee last year...

Ciao!

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-10-20 00:12:14 +0000 UTC]

Well, as I said, that was what I was told, and I probably am wrong, but anyway, in the situation I presented to you (two spouses) what kind of love you'll have? I'm assuming the lack of sex, or physical love, but I still fail to understand how one could interact in that situation.

And on another note you made me think again... So ok, being in heaven doesn't mean prancing between fluffy clouds harp in hand, but... how is it? I mean, what you do there all day? do you have some sort of physical incarnation of your soul? or you are just a spirit in a world out of space or time? Because, being only mind, you don't have much to do for all eternity, and having some sort of divine body incarnation, what would you have? Heaven would have to be a "place", and you'd need objects to interact with, I mean, in my humble and uninformed opinion, an artist should be able to create it's art in heaven, but... would you create matter from the tought? If som what would be your limits? If you needed to do things manually, would you have a pencil? a brush? would you have digital means?
I know some of this stuff might sound humorous, or even satirical, but those are serious questions, and questions not often being ask, because one doesn't think in practical terms when one thinks of heaven...

And yoo know, now that you mention music, when you think on everyday things, like music, or even something as banal as a CD player, or an iPod if you prefer, if you understand how it works, if you know the underlying mathematics, physics, and other stuff working silently for this to work, this world becames a place full of wonders. You're reading this message right now, think about all the software behind it, the hardware supporting it, the boolean logic, every component down to the most basic transistor, the laws of electricty on which it's based, the atoms that form the matter the constitutes it, the concept of the wave, how something so intangible as a sound can interact with the molecules of air to "travel", how we can detect those waves and transform into information that our brain, using all those small neurones, can process and makes as "understand" and "listen" that sound... When you think about all that, you discover the magic of every single moment...

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-11-02 04:26:21 +0000 UTC]

Hey, sorry this reply is so long in coming.

In regards to the couple/marriage/love thing... I really don't know if I can answer that any better than in my first reply. I wasn't really talking about physical love at all... but emotional. It will be totally different. Our love will be completely unselfish, unconditional, and outshined by the love of God... we will finally see each other as God sees us. If you married two people, you will still love both of them, but it will be a different love... I mean, how can you explain something that is already so relative and ambiguous, and then apply the perfection of heaven to it and expect to comprehend? I certainly can't.

As for the physicality of heaven, yes I believe there will actually be a new physical earth, and we will have new physical bodies. Some of the passages that can be used to support this are Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13; and Revelation 21:1.

As for what we will exactly do there... I don't know. All I know is that heaven is the place where the deepest desires of our hearts will be realized. I truly believe that if that means sitting and painting landscapes, then we will do it. If it means singing praises, we will do it. If it means playing cards with your buds, then you'll do it. From the very beginning God craved two things from his creation: personal relationship and to give them a life they would enjoy. I believe this will carry on into heaven. While the bible does not touch a great deal on what life will specifically be like in heaven, the one thing it does make clear is that it is a place where we will finally be in perfect relationship with God, with each other, and with ourselves. It has always been a three-way relationship. Here on earth, God cares just as much about how we treat each other, than our relationship with Him specifically... since God is unchanging, I don't see that changing in heaven.

And you'd be surprised how many people actually do think about this sort of thing. It's the beauty of our God-given imagination. It may be somewhat pointless in the long run, but I think God smiles upon us and giggles when we try to figure this stuff out.

One thing I know is that I can't wait to see him face to face... it's the most beautifully terrifyingly delectable thought in my head.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-11-12 12:27:43 +0000 UTC]

Same here, sorry for the delay

I'm not sure about the love thing, I mean, love with the sense of belonging to each other isn't really love in the sense than a couple loves his/her significant other, so they wouldn't be a couple anymore, and it would be lost, even if it's replaced for a supposed "better kind of love" I still don't like that thought... And as for the definitions of how heaven is, I think it was purposely left untoched in the writings so anyone can imagine his/her own heaven, but... what happens if your desire for heaven is to hang out with your buds but some of them have the desire of, say, being alone lazying in the field near a lake or something like that? Or what if your desire is to simply cease to exist?

And, I dunno, but if your most desired thought is to see God in the afterlife, isn't it in some way meaning that you dislike your terrenal life? at least when you compare it to the ethernal life. I think one has to live life to the fullest, regardless of what comes next

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-11-18 22:14:50 +0000 UTC]

Hmm... you do indeed pose thoughtful questions.

As for love... I can't say I completely understand it. I can't. I don't understand love here on earth, so I can't uderstand it in heaven either. The Bible does seem to indicate that there won't be marriage, so that element of love may be lost. I don't know. And as much as my earthly body doesn't think that's a good thing, my spirit puts faith in my God that he knows what he is doing. I guess that's what it comes down to. Faith. He promised me that it would be everything I needed. Right now, I don't know what that looks like. Right now, I may think that my hearts desire is to laze around a lake for all eternity, but when I get to heaven, and all my fears and doubts are erased I will imagine that my hearts desire will be something much greater than I anticipated it to be. I will be face to face with my God... the giver of my life... the sustainer of joy in my soul. I can't imagine it getting much better than that.

As for disliking my life here on earth... that is not the point at all. God gave us life so we could live it. He doesn't intend for us to go about moping about all the crap on earth... he intends for us to make the most of every day. But, I find it much easier to withstand the trials on earth, and the darkness that, despite how much I love life, DOES still exist. This world does have it's dark points. That is what sin has done. I look to heaven with anticipation, yes, but I live everyday thankful that I have another day to live. It is only on earth that I will have the opportunity to impact peoples lives in a tangible way... this is the only time I have to truly be a servant to my fellow human beings. Once I'm dead... the party starts, but the only impact I can make is in memory. So I am thankful for every day on earth.

I do not think that yearning to see God in heaven, and embracing life on earth, are really all that incompatible.

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Pepius In reply to Loyalyak [2004-12-13 23:03:21 +0000 UTC]

Well, I think that's the point, I'm too rational for faith, be it good or bad...

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Loyalyak In reply to Pepius [2004-12-14 00:51:36 +0000 UTC]

I don't consider faith irrational at all. I think it makes perfectly logical sense. The way I look at it, there are two options:

1) The world was created by God

2) The world was not created by God

I have a 50/50 chance of being right. It is pretty much taken as fact that Jesus lived on the earth. Most of humanity will agree that he did live, whether they take him as God or not. However, you cannot look at Jesus as just a good teacher. He could only be one of three things; Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. If he was just a really great guy and not God, then he was a Liar, because he explicitly claimed to be God. Therefore, if he lied about that, he very well could have lied about everything else, and his character is called into question. So, if he was just a teacher, and therefore a Liar, I cannot respect him.

If he believed himself to be God, but was not, then he is a lunatic. I cannot respect a lunatic.

Therefore, logically, if I am to respect this man, I must take him for what he said he was, and that is God.

The same can be said for the entirety of the Bible. It cannot be partially true. It either is, or isn't. Of course, it is very possible to live by the morals and values of the Bible and not believe in the God it professes, but I don't consider that logical either.

And, of course, when it comes right down to it, I must think of eternity. At the basest, most selfish level of faith, I have my life insurance. If God does not exist, and there is no heaven, I have nothing to lose by living my life believing that there is. Either I die, and cease to exist, therefore not knowing any better that I was wrong, or I die, and end up in heaven. Either way, I win. I consider that to be pretty logical and rational.

Living my life with the belief and conviction that I was created for a purpose, by design, and not just some random molecular accident, doing my best to love and serve my fellow man, knowing that I am forgiven when I mess up, and believing that my actions on earth will have eternal consequence, therefore encouraging me to live a meaningful life on earth... I consider these to be very rational, very logical things.

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