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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-23 18:59:11 +0000 UTC]

Well....I'm not so sure. Shepard was able to fight Wrex, a Krogan who is able to damage/nearly destroy a shuttle with his bare hands. Shepard also has multiple biotic powers that can put him/her at speeds comparable to a SPARTAN or an Elite, as well as give him/her bunches that produce Building----> low end City Block busting capabilities, far above an Elites and most SPARTANs physical blows. However, I do agree about the armor vs plasma issue though. And The Arbiter has technically more experience. However, one of Shepard's larger weapons can take down the Hades Canon in one shot.


Though in the end for both characters it depends how much you factor cutscenes, calcs, extended universe stuff, And gameplay. A problem is that SPARTANs, while superhuman without a doubt, can sometimes be inconsistent. For example, Master Chief's armor surviving a drop from orbit yet both bullets and needles from the Needler can pierce them no problem in both gameplay and storyline. The Elites are the same way, sometimes they are canon fodder, and other times they can beat a single SPARTAN by themselves (though to be fair that usually has to do with skill more than their physicality).

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-24 02:10:58 +0000 UTC]

Wrex can tear through metal with his bare hands? He's as strong as a SPARTAN without MJOLNIR, then? Increase that because, firstly, MJOLNIR increases that and then add adrenaline. That's a SPARTAN that Elites match. Reaction time isn't anywhere close to a SPARTAN or an Elite. Like I said before, Shep is only peak human at best, this includes biotic/tech powers that allow Shep to slow down his perception of the world about him. That's how SPARTANs see reality without MJOLNIR (again). In the Halo: Evolutions short-story, even a failed SPARTAN described his perception as everyone "moving under water." Take that and make it 5 times slower because of MJOLNIR, lower it some more because Cortana makes MC react faster than that, than lower it some more because adrenaline and experience. That's MC, who The Arbiter matches.Sure Shep has some W.M.D.s, but how often does he use them? Only when facing a machine multi-stories tall that convential weapons wouldn't scratch. Arbiter is not that. What reason do we have to assume Shep would even pack that?

Wait, how does the Arbiter "technically" have more experience? He just, straight up, does.

By inconsistent do you mean similarly to how Krogans can tear through metal and simultaneously be overpowered by a human - a human female, in the minds of most ME people I've come to know - who are so, so, so much more easily broken than any but the most brittle metals. Like that, inconsistent? Hi pot, meet kettle, haha.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-24 02:27:47 +0000 UTC]

Wrex tears through space metal, it's the metal of the shuttle that travels through the atmosphere of a planet.


"Increase that, because MJONIR and adrenaline increases that." And how does that prove in any form that SPARTANS are as strong or even stronger.



"Even a weak SPARTAN describes everyone as moving slower than water". That's kinda like an FTE feat, it's debatable in validity as a feat.

You just said Shep is peak human, except I just stated scenes in which Shepard can increase his/her power or building and city block level punches, which is not peak human by "realistic" standards. Plus she was enhance she cybernetically.

Only when facing a multi-story tall machine? Yeah, but there is no reason in a Death Battle to believe that she can't use her WMDs against the Arbiter. It's up to the player even gameplay wise.


You are trying to use the "Krogans breaking metal but them losing to a human girl who are generally brittle" as inconsistency, but generally Shepard is enhanced via Biotics and cybernetics. Plus her beating up a Krogen could just be scaling.

Though even then, just stating that an opponent will lose because they are "merely" peak human is fallacious. By that logic, numerous opponents like Guts, Beowulf, Samurai Jack, Big Boss, and others will automatically lose against a superhuman that has lesser showings because they are "merely peak human".

You know, I thought Shepard was "only peak human" myself, until I did some hard reasarch.

vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Comma…

www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.co…


Of course, you always can't trust every single detail that these sites state.

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-24 05:53:11 +0000 UTC]

"Wrex tears through space metal, it's the metal of the shuttle that travels through the atmosphere of a planet."

Yes, just like how 14-year old John-117 was capable of punching through Titanium-A plating which is used on the hull of the UNSC's unshielded ships. A 14-year old, MJOLNIR-less, barely augmented John-117.

"And how does that prove in any form that SPARTANS are as strong or even stronger."

Uh
Wrex, as a full grown fairly powerful Krogan, can rip through the metal hull of ships.
To reiterate, a 14-year old, MJOLNIR-less, barely augmented John-117 was able to rip through the metal hull of ships.
MJOLNIR increases that.
Expirence increases that.
Adrenaline increases that.
C: John-117 is stronger, and Arbiter matches him.

"That's kinda like an FTE feat, it's debatable in validity as a feat."

First, no, its not a debatable at all. In the Fall of Reach novel John describes the exact same thing. Its much better than Soldier Shep's Adrenalin Rush, in that MJOLNIR, adrenaline, and Cortana all make it much slower and its a constant thing as opposed to Shep's like 30-second window with a short cooldown to reuse the ability.

"You just said Shep is peak human, except I just stated scenes in which Shepard can increase his/her power or building and city block level punches, which is not peak human by "realistic" standards. Plus she was enhance she cybernetically."

Because I'm talking about Shep's speed. It doesn't matter how much more powerful Shep is when all it takes is a single, quick Energy Blade swipe and its over. Oh and it doesn't matter since I can find sites like VS Battle wiki which also put the Arbiter at those same levels. Huh. And I haven't forgotten she was upgraded, it doesn't help that much, believe it or not.

"Yeah, but there is no reason in a Death Battle to believe that she can't use her WMDs against the Arbiter. It's up to the player even gameplay wise."

But... you have to prove Shep might use a weapon before assuming she would. It's far more likely Shep would try every single, more powerful weapon before she opted to use the weapon she has one shot with. We are trying to be logical here, right? Not just jacking each other off, but actually attempting to prove a certain characters'.... character... would allow them to defeat another character. Gameplay wise doesn't matter, gameplay wise the Arbiter could choose to bring a Wraith, a Ghost, a Banshee, or a Scarab into this fight.

"You are trying to use the "Krogans breaking metal but them losing to a human girl who are generally brittle" as inconsistency, but generally Shepard is enhanced via Biotics and cybernetics. Plus her beating up a Krogen could just be scaling."

It is inconsistent. Shep's enhancements aren't that great. Don't they actually go out of the way to make Shep as close to normal as possible? So... Are Krogans so powerful they can tear through metal or so weak they can't even make break skin? But that's not what I was saying, I was trying to point out how its stupid it is to speak about inconsistencies.

"Though even then, just stating that an opponent will lose because they are "merely" peak human is fallacious."

Its not because they are " "merely" peak human" that Shep loses, its because Shep is only peak super human fighting a superhuman, so not only is the superhuman already doing better inevery physical stat, but in this case the superhuman is also more experienced, the more trained, and the better armed. It's all these pieces of evidence coming together.

"Of course, you always can't trust every single detail that these sites state."

Lol, look at you! Too bad I already posted how the Arbiter straight up outdoes Shep even be the people over at VS Battle Wiki's standards.

Vadaam wins.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-24 06:41:13 +0000 UTC]

"Lol. Look at you!"

I never said I completely trusted what they said, but many of these usually do enough to make Profiles and debates "serviceable".

"Just like a 14 year old John-117 punched through Titanium-A". Fair enough, but have Elites ever shown consistent strength to match that? Generally they are shown as canon fodder even disregarding gameplay, the short animated movies and some of the novels being an example.

"Are Krogans so weak that they could go through metal, but then they can't break skin?"
Yeah because Shepard is enhanced.

"We are talking about a peak superhuman character fighting a superhuman character". Peak superhuman character? Why did you change though?

"Shep's enhancement should aren't that great."

Prove this.

" Don't they try to make her as normal as possible"

Wut? Yeah they do, in terms of the characters personality, but being relatable and down to earth doesn't always automatically equate to power levels or combat ability.


It is far more likely that Shepard would try other weapons, true. But eventually what factors is that the higher level weapons and tricks in his/her Arsenal are more than enough. (You also made a mistake, you said that she would utilize his/her more powerful weapons BEFORE using the weapon One shot with, I think you mean his/hers lesser weapons. Because if she had more powerful weapons than that then why would she one shot?)

As for VsBattle Wiki, you didn't prove anything. If anything, by their standards you are off. Why? Simple , Vaadum is listed at City Block+ level with his highest equipment, while Shepard's highest is Multi-City Block+, While Shepard even WITHOUT Adrenaline Rush is at Massively Hypersonic via being comparable to James Vargas, but this actually brings the problem of scaling.

I can agree to plasma being a problem at least.

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-24 17:34:19 +0000 UTC]

"I never said I completely trusted what they said, but many of these usually do enough to make Profiles and debates "serviceable"."

And they show that our two fighters are matched. IT would come down to experience and Vadaam wins.

"Fair enough, but have Elites ever shown consistent strength to match that?"

Yes. The Arbiter, specifically, is a clone of MC as far as abilities go. You say they've been inconsistent, but its like you've forgotten the Covenenat is fighting an army of SPARTANs, breaking, changing leadership, and collapsing all at the same time. They are far more consistently badass and SPARTAN-like (especially in the EU) than Krogan. You want to talk about inconsistencies, I'm going to keep going back to Krogan being incapable of making a human bleed.

"the short animated movies and some of the novels being an example. "

The animated movies? You mean like the one where another Arbiter destroys an entire army of Covenant in a night? Or the novels where Elite's regularly match SPARTANs in fist fights? Like that? Because that's fairly consistent. The only place they aren't consistent is gameplay and, as I've said before, gameplay doesn't matter (lots of balancing issues go into it, making the game fun being one.)

"Yeah because Shepard is enhanced."

She's not so enhanced she's not human. Cerberus made her as human as they could possibly make her. The only enhancements she has are the ones from N7 which don't make her skin so strong that she doesn't need armor. This tells us Shep's skin < Armor. We also know that Armor < Ship hull. Damn, inconsistent Krogans.

"Why did you change though?"

Was doing multiple things as I typed that up last night. Lots of errors in there. Sorry!

"Prove this."

That Shep's enhancements aren't that great? How about the fact that even Shep's quickest reaction ability only makes her baseline SPARTAN? Or the fact that, even assuming Krogan are stronger than baseline SPARTANs (which they aren't, already went over that), the Arbiter has proven himself to be stronger than that, even. So, yeah, not that great.

"doesn't always automatically equate to power levels or combat ability."

Do they say "we upgraded her power level or combat ability"? Nope. They do say, however, that they tried to keep her as human as possible. Can you prove post-resurrection that Shep is any better than pre-resurrection?

"But eventually what factors is that the higher level weapons and tricks in his/her Arsenal are more than enough."

It would factor if the Arbiter didn't posses the means and the drive to kill Shep before that eventuality. Which he would. That's why those weapons can be ignored. Shep would be dead long before she attempted to use them. I mean, cinematic scenes from the games show Shep loves running in and fighting the guys mono-y-mono, which would be the absolute worst thing she could do here - but its the most likely.

" this actually brings the problem of scaling."

And its very flawed scaling. Is Vega faster than Shep? No? How do you know? Is Vega slower than Shep? Yes? How do you know? You can't prove it, is what I'm saying. Meanwhile, we know how an adrenaline-rushed Shep perceives the world and its much slower than how an Elite does.

The Arbiter wins.
Not only do his basic weapons negate (or partially negate) Shep's single, best line of defense, but Shep's habit of running into fights headfirst would put her at the very hot end of an Energy Sword.
I don't even get how you can be arguing from the beginning. As soon as the fight starts and rounds begin to fly, being anywhere close to a plasma round from the Arbiter is going to cause 3rd degree burns which would render damn near anyone unconscious. Let's just say it slows Shep even more. HAve some more burns. (S)he's dead.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-24 20:40:32 +0000 UTC]

Seems to make sense on some scale , but I have some problems with your explanations in some areas. Namely when you state the animated movies feats with an Arbiter beating a whole Covenant army with nothing good but an energy sword in a single night, and with other ones where they match SPARTANS in hand to hand. Specifically, Those aren't really consistent with each other. SPARTANs have been overwhelmed by Platoons before (but platoons are close to small armies, so that's still pretty cool), and Elites in one of the animated movies were canon fodder and it was the same animated movie where an (albeit higher ranking) Elite beat Master Chief in an energy sword.


Though the thing with "perceiving things slower" is that it's debatable because, like the concept of FTE, it doesn't truly show reaction time or reflexes, many peak humans in various scenarios have described similar events.

Plus there's also various Biotic powers that Shepard still has in his/her Arsenal.

I can agree with experience however.

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-24 21:09:37 +0000 UTC]

They are when you consider the Arbiter was the title of the best swordsman on Sanghelios. It would be similar to MC beating an entire army of his fellow UNSC soldiers. Which he could do. That's consistent with each other and the power ranges set by each other. I don't know why you insist on bringing up inconsitencies when those are bound to happen in a fictional series. Hell, let's say Elites are just able to dent metal like they've been shown to do, there, no powerscaling, getting rid of all inconsistencies and going with the lowest possible solution. That's how strong the Arbiter is. Now let's look at Shep, shall we? She can beat up Krogans! there's that! (We'll even allow the power scaling!), going by the other two rules we're going to assume Krogan are so weak that they can't even break a human bone. That's how strong Wrex was, that's how strong Shep is, and its still much weaker than the Arbiter.

"Though the thing with "perceiving things slower" is that it's debatable because, like the concept of FTE, it doesn't truly show reaction time or reflexes, many peak humans in various scenarios have described similar events."

Excuse the shit out of my god damn French, but that's exactly my point! At Shep's best, with the Adrenalin Rush fully upgraded, she's peak human at best. A deformed SPARTAN with no MJOLNIR or AI to decreases his reflexes experiences this even when at rest. And Elite's are the equal of an at least 5x faster Master Chief. That makes the Arbiter faster.

"Plus there's also various Biotic powers that Shepard still has in his/her Arsenal."

That depends entirely on which Shep is being used. Canon Shep is a Soldier, so I went with Soldier.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-25 07:31:50 +0000 UTC]

"They are when you consider the Arbiter was the title of the best swordsman on Sanghelios. It would be similar to MC beating an entire army of his fellow UNSC soldiers. Which he could do. That's consistent with each other and the power ranges set by each other."

Knowing that the Arbiter was "the best swordsmen on Sanghelios" is a fact only shows that he's above an average elite in skill and not physical "stats". Maybe you can argue that his training was able to help him increase his stats in that respect and to that I would say...okay. But that Arbiter is not the same as the current Halo's Arbiter and definitely not the average Elite generally are seen as either slightly even with a SPARTAN or just marginally better canon fodder, which is not the same thing on any consistent range.


"I don't get why you bring up inconsistency when it's bound to happen."

Well true, it is. However, I believe it's always important to point it out. Keep in mind, I'm not wanking off to Mass Effect or trying to anti-wank (what I call extreme downplaying by fanboys of another franchise) the Halo franchise, as I am a casual...well I wouldn't say "fan" more like someone who has some investment into the franchise.

Okay trying to break it down to the LCD, I get what you were trying to do there. Cool.
Except, from what I've gathered Krogen were always strong and tough enough to break an average human's bone, even without the metal breaking feats. Though if you include scaling, that would defeat the whole purpose of breaking down the bare minimum, since that defeats your whole "we can also assume that Krogan aren't strong enough to break human bones" arguement. From what I've recalled (albeit vaguely and not completely admittedly speaking), Sangiheli haven't sliced through humans like butter either; we can easily assume that they could though, like with Krogans (especially if you apply their weight and durability to their strength). But if you utilize that then fair enough.

Pretty sure I found a few calcs that prove that Adrenaline Rush is superhuman at best, to levels of Supersonic/low end Hypersonic. But those things are a two way street sometimes (that does not mean they are competely invalid). Though you didn't really include stamina in your point. I can see what you are saying that Adrenaline Rush has a time limit, even if Shepard could be faster, it wouldn't make a difference.

Though keep in mind, that I'm not trying to say that Shepard definitely wins, I just opposed the idea that your original comment made it seem that Shepard would get stomped.

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-26 05:24:04 +0000 UTC]

"generally are seen as either slightly even with a SPARTAN or just marginally better canon fodder, which is not the same thing on any consistent range."

They are even with  SPARTAN which is all I am trying to get across. Thank you for admitting as much that that Arbiter, which is no physically better stat wise than any other Elite, is capable of facing an entire army (if you don't like that term, I think it can be switched out with "hundreds of enemies including Hunters and Wraiths.") Oh, and lets not forget, that that army/hundreds of enemies included other Elites. That, in and of itself, makes Thel a larger threat to Shep than vice versa. That is what makes the Arbiter win. Because, if you'll recall, the Arbiter is by far the more experienced, skilled, fighter among the two contestants.

"But if you utilize that then fair enough."

Ah, so now its fair to ignore inconsistencies? Because, in canon, we have examples of Krogan's being super strong and them being weaker than even other humans. Its safe to say you got the reason I said to leave inconsistencies out. Hell, even your attempt to justify this is weak, Because there's other evidence that suggests the Krogan are powerful, we should ignore the inconsistent feat? Well, great, because there are many, many examples of them matching SPARTANS.

" Sangiheli haven't sliced through humans like butter either; we can easily assume that they could though"

They have. Fall of Reach, I think. They literally describe Elites, Jackals, and Grunts tearing people apart and eating them. We've never seen a Krogan do that. Not that I care, I am perfectly happy saying Krogan's are strong, it makes the match more even.

"I can see what you are saying that Adrenaline Rush has a time limit, even if Shepard could be faster, it wouldn't make a difference."

I can find calcs that make MC relativistic. No shit. Some Halo fanboys are stupid pieces of shit. Alright, so, speed is handedly to the Arbiter. As is strength, I'm assuming? Weapons, Arbiter. Experience, Arbiter. Durability, Arbiter (the fact that Shep's armor melts as it gets hot means its going to be slag relatively quickly.)

"Though keep in mind, that I'm not trying to say that Shepard definitely wins"

Shep does get stomped.
Weapons: Arbiter
Armor: Arbiter (because shields.)
Experience: Arbiter.
Speed: Arbiter, or tie, doesn't matter.
Strength: Arbiter, or tie, doesn't matter.

Arbiter stomps Shep to the shadowy netherworld.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-26 19:02:16 +0000 UTC]

In the Fall of Reach's text, it mentioned Covenant forces tearing apart humans, but that's written in the same way that someone would write about human forces being "torn apart", it can be interpreted as a figure of speech. Not only that, but even if you look at the text another way, all that's saying is that



youtu.be/VkFj1JtZAyk

But then we have a scene from Halo Wars over here where an Elite punches a human and doesn't tear apart said human or break his skin. Yeah it's implied that he is stronger, but not to the extent of how strong a SPARTAN is supposed to be.


When I was talking about an Arbiter taking on an army of Covenant, I was talking about the animated movie, more specifically this one:


Yeah but you keep bringing up the whole "Krogan being weak enough for a human to take out" but you haven't really given anything else other than the fact that Wrex was beaten by Shepard, but again Shepard is cybernetically enhanced, so it makes sense that Wrex couldn't break Shepard's body. And again, Krogans have always been stated to be tougher than humans in the setting.

"Help gets stomped to the shadowy netherworld"

If it were to be a tie in Speed and Strength or even close, then it would matter because that wouldn't make it a tie.

Plus the weapons category going to Arbiter is also debatable. And you already stated before it's the shields and the experience which are the major "definite edges". Which wouldn't make it a stomp. It would make it go to Arbiter, but he would mid-diff at best.

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Sokogeki In reply to masterofhorr [2016-11-26 22:10:16 +0000 UTC]

"it can be interpreted as a figure of speech"

It can be a figure of speech... but seeing as how other novels have covenant forces eating the humans, I'm going to say its not.

"But then we have a scene from Halo Wars over here where an Elite punches a human and doesn't tear apart said human or break his skin"

Are... You talking about the video you linked to? The one titled "Spartans vs Elite"? The one where all the people they're fighting are SPARTANs? The one where it straight up shows a SPARTAN dropping at least 5 tones on the Arbiter and the Arbiter stopping it? That's the video where you're saying the Elites are inconsistent? Oh, and the Elite DID make the guy bleed. So Elites can, at least, make an armored soldier bleed. Krogan can't.

Not to mention its not even inconsistent. Fall of Reach, again. John-117 fights regular ODST, doesn't break their skin, instead he just, ya know, kills them with single punches to the chest. Ya know, kinda like when that Elite punches the guy in the stomach and he can't even crawl away?

"I was talking about the animated movie, more specifically this one"

I am aware. You said that Elite was not any better "stat" wise then any other Elite.

"so it makes sense that Wrex couldn't break Shepard's body. And again, Krogans have always been stated to be tougher than humans in the setting."

Excuse the fuck out of my french again, but that's exactly my fucking point. Inconsistencies don't disregard what's stated as canon. The fact that Wrex couldn't break a weak-ass human's skin (which, no matter how you try to stack it, isn't as strong as any metal) doesn't change the fact that Krogan are stronger than humans.
The fact that Elites don't always kill people which their punches doesn't change the fact that Elites are as strong as SPARTANs, in canon.
Can we stop talking about inconsistencies now and only focus on what is canon? You are coming off as really bias by choosing to only focus on Elite's inconsistencies while brushing off Krogan inconsistencies.

"then it would matter because that wouldn't make it a tie."
No it wouldn't. Even if we gave both strength and speed to both the Arbiter and Shep the Arbiter's advantage in every other field would make the two points Shep has negligible.
Two boxers enter a ring, they are equally as fast and hit as strong as each other. Except one has better reach, has been boxing for much longer, and can take many more hits before going down. Which boxer wins? Its simple, dude.

"Plus the weapons category going to Arbiter is also debatable."
No, its not. The fact that Arbiter's weapons at least partially ignore Sheps' durability makes them the better weapon.

"Which wouldn't make it a stomp. It would make it go to Arbiter, but he would mid-diff at best."

I have said no such thing. But, even if I had, the fact that those two defining factors go to the Arbiter makes it a stomp.

If I have a gun and you have a slingshot, I stomp you out. The weapons are the definite edges that one needs, I have those, I stomp your slingshot using ass to oblivion. If Shep had one or the other, if Shep had the majority of the catigories, if Shep was nearly as strong or fast as (s)he's wanked to be, it would be "mid-diff". But shep holds neither of the major edges, only holds two categories that (s)he shares (assuming the best), and overall is very weak compared to the Arbiter (or any SPARTAN.) This makes it a stomp. Its the culmination of all the factors.

Is this over yet? I don't think your, apparently deeply held, biases are going to change no matter how much evidence I dump in front of you.

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masterofhorr In reply to Sokogeki [2016-11-27 07:01:43 +0000 UTC]

"Is this over yet? I don't think your apparently deeply held, biases are going to change no matter how much evidence I dump in front of you."

Nah, you've convinced.me.


So who do you think would be a good opponent for The Arbiter or Thel Vaadum.

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CyberSamurai270 In reply to masterofhorr [2017-02-22 17:49:44 +0000 UTC]

A good opponent? I'm not sure. I used to think that a Predator would be a good match, but then someone brought up the heat vision problem.

I have yet to find a match. Either Arby is out of the opponent's league, or the opponent is stronger than Arby.

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masterofhorr In reply to CyberSamurai270 [2017-02-22 19:20:08 +0000 UTC]

I think the Arbiter wins that one (against the Predator) even with the heat vision intact.  He has better weapons suited for direct combat.  He's also arguably faster.  He's definitely stronger (or at least as strong).  And so on and so forth. 

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CyberSamurai270 In reply to masterofhorr [2017-02-23 03:56:21 +0000 UTC]

The heat vision is a problem, not because it makes seeing somewhat dificult, but because as soon as the Arbiter shoots something or pulls out the Energy Sword all the Predator will see is blinding bright white.

It would be fun to see them fight. But the Arbiter would win.
Which means, we still don't know who a good match for the Arbiter would be. XD

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masterofhorr In reply to CyberSamurai270 [2017-02-23 04:40:13 +0000 UTC]

Yeah

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