Description
You all know I love comic book baddies - most especially the baddies of Batman. The Caped Crusader has one of the greatest Rogues Galleries of any hero in any genre and any universe; a cadre of colorful, crazy, and creepy characters - Joker, Harley Quinn, Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, and Poison Ivy, just to name a few - that have entertained, enthralled, and sometimes terrified fans for decades. But nothing is ever perfect; when you have a character who’s been around for almost 80 years now, not every story will be a gem, and not every antagonist will be as fun or engaging as the rest.
Comic books are a silly place at times - there’s no denying it, let’s face it - but some ideas and characters just go beyond the boundaries of any sense of logic or fascination, and just become too dumb, too bizarre, or just too ridiculous for us to thoroughly enjoy. Now, I won’t be counting “Joke Villains” here; for those who don’t know, these are characters who were either created specifically for the purpose of just being completely absurd and mockable, or else have found their home as characters meant for that purpose, and, as a result, have actually become more fun or interesting as a result. Note the words “fun and interesting;” there are some villains so stupid, they don’t even work as jokes, and that’s what this list is for. All the same, because of this, don’t expect to see characters like Condiment King or Killer Moth here. With that said...prepare to facepalm and ask the Gods of Gotham “Why?!” These are My Top 5 WORST Batman Villains.
5. Ten-Eyed Man.
The sad thing about the Ten-Eyed Man is that he actually has potential. No, seriously. The origins of the Ten-Eyed Man are actually sort of tragic, and start off in a surprisingly promising manner. His real name is Philip Reardon. A Vietnam vet, Phil went to work as a security guard for a fur factory. He’s actually a gifted fighter, and is able to bash any crooks who attack brutally. However, he ends up getting overpowered during a struggle with some thugs, who light a bomb. Batman pops up at just the wrong moment, and mistakes a just-then-regaining-consciousness Reardon for one of the felons, who flee the scene. Batman attacks Phil, somehow not noticing the explosive device, and when the bomb goes off, even though they both survive, poor Reardon ends up blinded. The thieves return later, and kidnap Reardon, planning to use his fighting abilities for their own greedy purposes. Now, at this point, this is actually a pretty compelling backstory. A former soldier, a talented combatant, on the side of law and order, who gets scarred by a tragic misunderstanding with Batman. This is an origin on par with such characters as Two-Face and Mr. Freeze, in my opinion. How could they screw this up? Well, here’s where things just get weird: an eye surgeon SOMEHOW manages to connect Philip’s optic nerves to his fingers, and this SOMEHOW allows him to see in ten different directions, as his fingers act as his eyes. And thus, what could have been a fascinating villain becomes a fascinating KLUTZ. The Ten-Eyed Man’s “power” is really a handicap! You smack his hands, and he can’t see. You throw mud on his hands, and he can’t see. You throw a cactus and he catches it...OH, THE PAIN. He’s a stumbling and manic annoyance rather than anything close to a threat. The pseudo-science behind his “power” is also just a bit too hard to swallow, even in the world of comics. For me, it’s the wasted potential in this guy that really makes me angry. If Philip Reardon had ended up being any villain BUT the Ten-Eyed Man, we might have had one of the greatest Batman rogues of all time. But instead, he ends up being a muckle nuisance and an embarrassment to Blackgate. The agonizing irony speaks for itself.
4. Captain Stingaree.
I love pirates. It’s no secret, nor any sort of surprise. A pirate-themed villain in Batman’s Rogues Gallery could be fun...in fact, he has one already. No, not Stingaree here, but the much-underrated Cavalier, who was made in the early days of Batman’s career, during the Golden Age of Comics. Stingaree, in contrast, came out in the more recent Bronze Age. Talk about being late to the party. Why the guys at DC decided to even concoct this nutball is beyond me; his real name is Karl Courtney, part of a family of quadruplets...and I guess that upbringing must have had some sort of weird effect on his briny brain, because he is under the impression that Batman is not one person, but three different people working together. In fact, he believes them to be his own brothers. His whole motivation is trying to prove exactly that. So...yeah. He’s a conspiracy nut who talks like Captain Hook and for no apparent reason hates his siblings. How intimidating. As if that’s not silly enough, he actually gets his alias from the role he plays at a pirate-themed restaurant, where he basically acts as both the mascot and the owner. Yeah. He doesn’t even have a secret identity; this is literally just the name he gets from being a public eccentric. Lazy, deluded in the most convoluted way, and inexplicably odd, I think many a DC fan is grateful that Batman rarely has to face the cutlass of this goofily-named captain.
3. Penny Plunderer.
Joe Coyne was a newspaper seller who got caught pinching pennies from his customers. This was apparently all it took to drive him off the deep end, and he now commits crimes themed around coins...especially pennies. In fact, almost exclusively pennies. His reasoning? Well...the “coppers” caught him because of “coppers,” so he’ll use “coppers” to steal “coppers.” Yeah. That’s...that’s really stretching the pun there. That’s almost impressive. Almost. There’s not much else to say about this guy; he’s an over-the-top gangster-type of crook, not much else to him. He’s not very smart, he’s not very agile or strong...he’s just a fairly normal guy with a seedy moustache who wears a green pinstripe suit. Even his design is pretty boring! Give the other guys on this list credit, at least they LOOK interesting...not necessarily awesome, but interesting. Perhaps the most telling thing about how bad this guy is comes from his one great achievement...which is no longer even his. You all know about that giant penny in the Batcave right? Well, originally, that was the fault of the Penny Plunderer. Yeah. This guy was the reason Batman has that most epic of trophies. WAS. In the 1980s, the creative staff at DC decided to retcon this, and named Two-Face as the one responsible for it; this was further elaborated on in later stories, and even became a big part of the episode "Almost Got 'Im" from "Batman: The Animated Series." As a result, this guy - very literally - hasn’t even got a penny to his name. How fitting...and, in my opinion, how fortunate.
2. Crazy Quilt.
Real name: Paul Dekker. A former artist-turned-crook, this guy ended up becoming a supervillain when a fight with a rival criminal wound up causing him to go blind. When a surgeon tried to return his eyesight, something went wrong, and Dekker found everything looked blindingly bright and vivid in his eyes; the colors he saw were so garish and so ungodly that he literally went insane. He created a helmet to help him see better, which also allows him to hypnotize people, can shoot laser beams, and create flashes of bright light that blind other people, even though he can see just fine. He also stitched together a gaudy costume, apparently based around what we can only assume he sees 24/7 without that helmet. Using his “vast knowledge of colors” (no, really, that’s what he says), Dekker becomes Crazy Quilt, and things only get more embarrassingly strange from that point on. To make matters worse, Quilt gets defeated not really by Batman, but by Robin. Yes. Robin. As if things weren’t sad enough for the poor doofus. As a result, the flamboyant nut considers Robin his arch-foe. Isn’t it sad that while Batman gets villains like the Joker and Ra’s Al Ghul, his most loyal associate gets THIS dumb-ox for a nemesis? Quilt is a case where, even as a joke villain, the gag just doesn’t work. At least, not for me. Some people may argue differently, and I guess I can understand that; there is something of a “so bad it’s good” quality to the guy, but for me, he’s just too dimwitted, odd, and even obnoxious for me to truly enjoy. Not even “Batman: The Brave & the Bold” could really make him work!
But for as embarrassing as Crazy Quilt is, there's one villain who takes the "Lame Factor" to a whole new level...
1. Kite-Man.
His real name is Charlie Brown-FAIL. Fail. Epic fail. Yeah, there’s...there’s no coming back from that. But, for the sake of morbid curiosity, for all those of you DESPERATE to know who this MAGNIFICENT scoundrel is: Kite-Man (yeah, I won’t be using his alter ego; it’s even worse than his villain name) is a thieving dimwit who uses giant kites to fly around and commit crimes like a wannabe-Vulture-from-Spider-Man. We don’t really know his backstory, so one can only assume - given his real name - that he read way too many Peanuts comics as a kid, thought Batman was the tree that constantly ate the kites in the comics, and decided to take revenge for the papery, leafy slaughter. (I’m doing my best here, if you want to try and come up with a better origin, be my guest.) Kite-Man, much like Crazy Quilt, is another villain where, even as a joke, he just falls flat. He’s so laughably bad and so poorly developed that there’s nothing redeeming there at all. Again, some could argue that he’s one of those “so bad it’s good” cases, and, to a certain extent, I suppose that’s true - just hearing the name is enough to make one facepalm about fifty times. Once again, not even “Batman: The Brave & the Bold” could make him work; indeed, that show treated him as a running gag! WHO HONESTLY THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA?! There have been some bizarre gimmicks villains have come up with over the years - boomerangs, umbrellas, hats...but somehow kites just jump the shark of plausibility, seriousness, and enjoyability. He’s just too ridiculous to work in any way at all. I hear that, apparently, the recent storyline “War of Jokes & Riddles” (which I still need to read as I write this list) features him in a major role, and I can’t help but wonder if the knowledge he’s in that comic is the reason I haven’t read it yet. When the main villains are my top two Batman rogues, it’s the only immediate reason I can come up with...and if nothing else, that, alone, earns poor ol’ Kite-Man the top spot on my list of The Worst Batman Villains of All Time. (UPDATE: Thank you, "War of Jokes & Riddles." You did, in fact, come up with a surprisingly decent origin story for this guy. Doesn't save him from the number one spot, though.) Fly home, Charlie Brown; Snoopy misses you, and you’re hogging up the Red Baron’s airspace. GET OUT!
Dishonorable Mentions Include…
Polka-Dot Man.
Sometimes called Mr. Polka-Dot (which sounds like a children’s birthday clown), and with the real name of Abner Krill. (Whales must love him. For breakfast. I hope.) Not much is known about Krill’s background, but what we DO know is that he somehow got his hands on a very odd costume, covered in polka-dots which are able to come off and do all kinds of things. Now, to be fair...this guy’s powers actually aren’t that bad. Actually, there’s a lot of fun that can be had with colored spots and circles: portals that allow him to teleport, weapons such as buzzsaws and discs, flat hoverboards, circular bubbles, shields, and forcefields...it’s something simple yet offers a surprising amount of creativity. A shame that the guy just looks incredibly goofy, and doesn’t have an interesting origin or personality to back it up, since he’s not very bright, not very developed, and ultimately is just a run-of-the-mill thief. The fact that he tries to commit crimes somehow related to dots, circles, spots, spheres, etc. doesn’t give him much versatility, either. You really get the feeling this is a character who could really only work back in the Silver Age; his powers allow enough inventiveness that artists and writers can have some fun, but he’s just so silly on the whole that it’s really tough to make him anything close to a legitimate threat. I actually feel the guy has a bit of potential, but, perhaps for obvious reasons, it’s never been realized.
Jojo the Flinker.
Haven’t heard of him? There’s a reason. Jojo the Flinker (...just...just drink in that redonculous name...savor it…) was a character who appeared in the 1940s newspaper strips of Batman, in a storyline entitled “The Two-Bit Dictator of Twin Mills.” The story involved Batman & Robin going into Twin Mills - a town just outside Gotham City - which was being ruled by a mobster simply called Boss Tweed Wickham (himself a satire of Boss William M. Tweed, a corrupt politician from New York City), to help out a newspaper editor who was also a friend of Bruce Wayne, and whose life was in terrible danger due to his paper printing the truth about Wickham’s wily workings. While Wickham was the nominal villain of the story, and...yeah, he’s not too great either (he looks like he has a head made of mashed potatoes, and his personality is every pompous cow-brain known to man), it’s his main stooge, Jojo the Flinker, that takes the cake. Jojo is a Peter Lorre caricature (why they decided to make him so, I have no idea) who is basically a poor man’s Deadshot, from before Deadshot was even around. He’s an assassin who is so skilled with a pistol, he can shoot a bird from the hip when it’s flying 500 feet above. (Is that even physically possible with a semi-automatic pistol? I seriously don’t know, so if anyone can clear that up for me, I’d be delighted.) So, yeah, he has some mad skills, and making him look like Peter Lorre, if nothing else, is kind of eye-catching. However, he’s a very short and not very physically fit fellow, and once you take that gun away, he’s a complete coward and screw-up. Not only that, but...well...you’re probably wondering where the whole “Flinker” thing comes from, right? For some reason, he likes to say he “flinks” people when he kills them. “Right between the eyes - Flink!” Or, when talking about target practice, “Watch me Flink it!” Or when talking about a target, “Oughta be a hanger fer the Flink treatment!” WHY?! WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?! As far as I can tell, this isn’t a common slang term, or anything...if they wanted to create their own random slang word, why something as silly as “Flink”? Much like Polka-Dot Man and even the Ten-Eyed Man, Jojo the Flinker is a villain who had some potential, but the inexplicable goofiness around him just ruins it all. Jojo hasn’t appeared since the storyline from the newspaper strips, either, which probably makes him the most unknown villain of all these bozos. To be quite blunt, that’s likely for the best.
Comments: 31
Dyldyl0047 [2022-10-25 06:10:32 +0000 UTC]
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DanLantern [2020-05-17 21:12:07 +0000 UTC]
Funny enough, Captain Stingaree isn't the last Batman villain to have a pirate theme (Cavalier always struck me as more of a musketeer character than a pirate one.) Recent Batman comics introduced the villain Captain Fear, who takes the "swashbuckling pirate captain" gimmick as far as one could imagine, and he even has a better-looking costume.
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thearist2013 [2019-01-24 07:20:16 +0000 UTC]
at least kite-man, alongside Aquaman, went on to be someone to annoy IHE
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Darkdealer65 [2018-11-06 01:01:35 +0000 UTC]
You're right; Ten-Eyed Man could've been a great threat if he was used properly
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Indigo81 [2018-05-18 18:19:30 +0000 UTC]
A while back I wrote an AU that featured Ten-Eyed Man.
But I gave him a bit of an upgrade.
Made him an Astral Projector who could takeover people's bodies.
And the Ten-Eyed thing was a reference to the nightmarish, Slender Man esk form his Astral Form takes.
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Danny-Buckle [2018-03-08 23:05:54 +0000 UTC]
You know, as I get older I find myself finding merit in characters that in the past I either hated or just dismissed. Green Arrow has gone from a character I really hated to a character that I greatly respect and like in the past eighteen months or so, for example. Kite-Man has been given a genuine backstory thanks to War of Jokes and Riddles that made him a very hilariously tragic reoccuring joke in the Batman comic, and even before then I couldn't bring myself to actually dislike him.
When I think of villains that I'm not fond of (Venom, Carnage, Ra's Al Ghul, Bane, General Zod (outside of Superman II), Doomsday, etc), they tend to follow the same theme; Really popular characters that have (in my personal opinion) underwhelming personalities. Bane was redeemed somewhat by Gail Simone (because that woman is a master of characterisation), and both Ra's and Zod do have interesting personality traits to them, but the problem is that their personalities never get a chance to shine. If Zod shows up, expect the "KNEEL!" and a decent fight. If Ra's shows up, expect some cool swordfights and a reference to Damian Wayne. I think it's the fact that they are so well-known and display such little character in comparison to some of the more obscure gems in the comics that puts me off them.
(To be honest, if I ever got to do something Superman related and had to use Zod, I would probably end up just constantly referencing this: To Boldly Flee - Distraction Music Video - YouTube )
Outside of that small group of villains, I'm generally quite open to the "loser rogues", relying on the mindset that any villain has potential. Condiment King becoming a Plastic Man rogue has always seemed like the perfect fit to me, for example. Ten-Eyed Man could be the mastermind behind that wierd Ten-Eye Cult that Grant Morrison created and an associate of the League of Assassins, and Polka-Dot Man could be some sort of beloved Gothamite artist who was driven to madness by the Joker in the early days of his career (just before he got rid of Gaggy and just after he brought in Harley) by forcing the creative genius to stare at a blank, dull white wall, to psychologically null the mind and break Abner's creative spirit, and by the time Gaggy decided to free him he'd already breached the point of no return.
Also, I admit to not knowing about Flinker, but my God does he sound silly. At best I can imagine him being a henchman with a quirk, similar to those seen in B:TAS, but definitely not as an actual antagonist.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-08 23:34:41 +0000 UTC]
First: to be fair to Jojo the Flinker...he technically IS a henchman with a quirk, as you put it, since the MAIN villain of that storyline is Boss Tweed Wickham (who, again, is not much better), buuuut Jojo just stands out more because...well...he's a Peter Lorre caricature who they try to build up in a big way, thanks to his marksmanship, and who for no apparent reason just randomly uses the word "Flink." So, yeah, I still count him here. XD
Second: I do love that scene from "To Boldly Flee." And Doug Walker's Zod impressions. I was so very happy to see him in the "Man of Steel" review. Actually, believe it or not, I think his parody-Zod may be part of the reason I love Zod so much in general. XD
Third: to me, there's a difference between truly bad villains and villains who are just overrated. Ra's, Bane, and so forth are all good villains - myself and tons of other people wouldn't like them otherwise, let's face it - but I can understand when people feel they are overrated because they are used so often, and not always to great effect. I won't lie, with some of these really popular rogues, I haven't even READ their stories (or, more often, just not very many of them), but the characters as I see them in other media just capture my attention and imagination to a point where it doesn't matter. That is a CREDIT to the character, because - even if it sometimes means the versions outside the comics are actually BETTER than the comic versions themselves - it shows that there's something transcendent about that character. So if you don't like them...fine, don't like them, to each their own, but I can't bring myself to say they're bad villains, because clearly there's something there. It's just not always taken advantage of. (This is in contrast to underrated villains, who have TONS of potential that actually HAS been realized, but no one ever takes advantage of that, either. Bunch of dimwits.) Overuse is one thing, but being a truly bad villain is something altogether different.
A truly bad villain is a character who offers no real threat, makes no freaking sense whatsoever, has no real connection to the hero, and is perhaps just so ridiculous in their very conception that you cannot take them seriously in any way at all. That, or they are just plain BORING or OBNOXIOUS. Sometimes they can be all of this at once. Again, sometimes, these "losers" can be funny or even interesting. Condiment King and Killer Moth, who I mentioned in the description, are good examples; one is completely intended to be a doofus and a screw-up, and is meant to be essentially a clown. You can't get mad at him because the fact he's a total nutjob and a goofball is the point; he's intended to be comic relief. He's basically a parody of supervillains in general, which, especially in a world of comics with REAL supervillains, can be rather funny. Killer Moth, meanwhile...I'm going to be honest, I like the guy. He's not on my list of my favorite Batman Villains, but that's because he's not really a villain at all. He's a fanboy who WANTS to be a villain, that's how I've always seen him. And, as a villain fanboy myself, I sympathize with him completely. Not that I'd EVER go to the extremes he does, but the hero (or rather villain) worship he engages in makes sense. He actually has had some decent stories, and there was even a point in time where they made him a genuinely terrifying monster, Charaxes...a REAL Killer Moth with demonic powers. It was actually pretty cool. So, I can't say he's one of the worst, because - even if he started out badly - he's found his place in the world, so to speak.
This was for the guys who HAVEN'T found their place in the world. Characters who, again, even as a joke, I just don't find interesting or funny enough to bring myself to care for them or feel anything but boredom and/or annoyance. Villains with wasted potential, or villains who just leave you scratching your head and wondering what people were thinking. The scenarios you mentioned are actually really interesting ideas, but at the moment, that's all they are. Ideas. And even if they came into the limelight the way you described them, I get the feeling there are some basic conceptual issues that could still hold them back. You would have to completely change them from the ground-up, basically creating a whole new character.
MAYBE when I read "War of Jokes & Riddles" (which I will do, at some point, but just haven't gotten around to yet), Kite-Man will find himself lower on this list...but I severely doubt he'll ever leave it.
Sincerely yours,
J.
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Danny-Buckle In reply to JJHatter [2018-03-09 01:28:10 +0000 UTC]
Fair enough, and at least he is memorable in his quirk, which is more than I can say for most henchman in comics.
To be honest, I'm the same. When I think of Zod, that song is the first thing to pop into my head. The only issue I'd have with having this version of Zod in the comics or any other official media is that we wouldn't get any of the wonderful dialogue between him and Terl (unless they had Jax-Ur serve as a fill-in).
I agree with this assessment, and I should have made myself clear to begin with. I bare no true hatred for any of these characters, and acknowledge that their popularity and presence in other media shows that they have a lot of appeal for many people, and honestly I hate not being able to get that same enjoyment out of them myself. I will always try to keep an open mind towards seeing a character pop up, regardless of my opinion on them as a whole, because I don't like not being able to enjoy these characters. Venom on Spectacular Spider-Man won me over, Zod is awesome when played by both Terance and Doug (I also found his hamminess in the relatively recent Suicide Squad comics to be amusing), and recently I've began to warm up more to Ra's and Bane.
Really, out of the characters I referenced there the only one that I've never found a version that I liked as a character, and see as a genuinely bad character, is Doomsday, and that could easily be dealt with by actually giving him a personality beyond being a rage machine (a deal with Neron would suffice). To me, a bad villain is a villain that's forgettable, annoying and lacks an impressive set of skills. Even the most ridiculous comic villains are memorable in their absurdity, but Doomsday sticks out for his visual design and killing Superman. The design is cool, and taking out Superman is undeniably impressive, but it doesn't make up for the lack of personality, at least for me personally.
I don't think that I would be able to argue against the effectiveness of these characters, even if I did truly hate these characters, which I really don't (except maybe Doomsday, though "hate" may be too strong a term to describe someone so devoid of character). Ra's, Bane, Zod, Venom and Carnage all have iconic designs that can be really intimidating and impressive, and all five of them have had adaptations that impressed me in some way or another.
Bane broke the Bat. Venom created a symbiotic legacy. Ra's is the head of an empire of global assassins. Carnage repulsed the freaking Joker. Zod makes all kneel before him. All of this is very impressive, and justifies their individual places in pop culture for me, but from a personal standpoint I still can't rank them that high up. It's less "I utter hate you with every fibre of my being" and more "You're cool, and I respect you and your iconography, but these more obscure characters fascinate me more than you do, and my personal gripes with how you have been presented in the comics make me rank you further down than the rest", if that makes any sense.
As for Killer Moth and Condiment King, yeah, I like them to. I grew up watching Teen Titans and to a lesser extent The Batman, and as a result Drury was one of the first comic supervillains from DC that I came across, so I have a nostalgic attachment to him, and on top of that I do think that he could work as a threat whilst still being a joke. It would be a delicate balance, but I think it could work if handled with care. I really like that reading of his character, and I think the villain fanboy angle could work wonders if he was teamed up with the pyromaniac Firefly again. Condiment King is perfect as a joke villain, and I love him for it.
Unfortunately, you're right. I have spent countless hours researching both Marvel and DC so that I can forge my own versions of their universes without the baggage of endless relaunches and reboots and retcons, and I would love to someday make a show for both companies, but for now it all remains as mere fanfiction.
I won't hype up the story too much (that tends to result in the stories not living up to the hype), but the way Kite-Man was weaved into the storyline makes me wish more writers tried to reinvent obscure villains instead of recycling the same A-Listers over and over again more so than ever before.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-09 03:05:07 +0000 UTC]
Again, that's the difference between overrated and truly terrible. Personally I like Doomsday (he's among my top ten Superman Rogues), and I do think he has more meat to him than you give him credit, but I can understand your feelings. Anyway, the point is that the characters are not necessarily bad characters, but you just like ones that are less popular more. I often feel the same way, even with characters I do genuinely enjoy. For example: the Joker is my favorite Batman villain of all time and unlike some people, I don't necessarily get tired of seeing him. What I DO get tired of is him being the "uber-villain;" like, the villain's villain. Why is HE constantly depicted as the leader of characters like Scarecrow or the Riddler? Why do they constantly get the short end of the stick? Similarly, while I do like Ra's Al Ghul and Bane, both of them are under the Mad Hatter by a significant amount; Jervis is my third favorite Batman Villain, they are ninth and tenth. Why doesn't my beloved Mr. Tetch get more time to shine? Heck, whether you like the version that recently appeared in "Gotham" or not, if nothing else, it proves he has a fanbase and can hold an entire major story arc on his own! So, even when I like certain villains a lot, that doesn't mean there aren't other characters I'd rather see more.
In fact, there are characters I like LESS than Ra's and Bane (and I'm only singling them out because you mentioned them) who I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more of and with much better writing, both in comics and in other media. Killer Croc, Anarky, the Clock King, and the Ventriloquist & Scarface, just to name a few. So I totally get it when people say they like more obscure characters more because, even if I don't necessarily find the characters themselves more enjoyable on the whole, I do still love them, and I would love to see more of them!
ANYWAY, that's my two cents of a ramble. Actually, with all this talk about overrated villains, I wonder...did you read my list of Underrated Supervillains? I don't remember you commenting on it or favoriting it, hence why I ask. It's not a big deal either way, just curious. (shrugs)
Sincerely yours,
J.
P.S.: Honestly, I think the Killer Moth from The Batman is my favorite take on the character, since you mentioned him. Probably even more than the comics. If any version captured that "fanboy" element perfectly, that one did. XD
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Danny-Buckle In reply to JJHatter [2018-03-11 01:32:27 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, I see what you mean. I can understand why people love Doomsday; he is undeniably awesome in terms of raw power and has a cool design, and his origin is somewhat tragic (if not kinda silly in its complete misunderstanding of evolution, but I don't let such things ruin guys like The Shark for me, so...meh), and when I think about it I guess he was meant to be a pure force of power rather than a real character, which makes his lack of character a bit more forgivable, but I'm still not much of a fan.
I see why you and so many others are sick of Joker being seen as the Messiah of Super-Villains, and in a way I sympathise with that view, but for me Joker's sheer personality makes up for it...for the most part. I would rather see Mad Hatter, Scarecrow, Riddler, Hugo Strange or even Bane have intellectual battles with Batman, if only to keep things from going to stale (As an aside, I would definitely be much happier with seeing Bane in comics if he actually acts smart and does something beyond screaming "I WILL BREAK YOU, BATMAN!" and boosting up on Venom), and the same can be said with Ra's/Bane regarding physical fights in that KGBeast, Orca, Blockbuster, Tusk, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy (Though I still see him as an enemy of Best Lantern) and a myriad of other obscure physically imposing Bat-Rogues could suffice without being nearly as stale.
I did, and I was familiar with all but Flattop and Shiwan Khan; both of them being from franchises that I really need to look further into. Really, I will always support an attempt to raise the profile of any comic character in the public eye, even if they aren't the most accurate (looking at you, CW Chronos) because they are adapted from a medium with an established set of alternate Earths (so we can just dismiss anything we dislike as AU nonsense) and because a lot of the time the adaptations end up improving on the comics on some level (Vibe, Gypsy and Breacher are all wonderful characters in the CW, while the former two spent most of their time on the shelves as infamously one-dimensional, if slightly charming in their goofiness, and the latter is...eh, I guess? Nowhere near as cool as Danny Trejo though). I also really appreciated the mention of Orca. I honestly don't why I love her so damn much, but I do, and my God am I glad she came back last year. Hopefully she carves out a place in Nightwing's Rogues Gallery as his equivalent to Killer Croc, because she will most likely not make it anywhere while in Gotham.
The Batman's Killer Moth was wonderful, though I kinda like the Teen Titans version more. Maybe an amalgamation of the two (a supervillain fanboy who is also a single dad that gets mutated into a humanoid moth at some point in his early career) would be the best route to take with him? Actually, now that I think about it, this Killer Moth would be perfect against Oracle. Calculator is her intellectual rival, while Drury is her "Sitcom Arch-Nemesis". She humiliates him on her first night on the job as Batgirl, he never gets over it but in his ineffectiveness fails to locate her again before she was crippled by Joker, and finally finds out her status as Oracle after she takes in Wendy and sets her up as Proxy, and sets up his daughter to befriend Wendy so that he can literally walk right up to her door and get his revenge...not realising that Oracle already figured it out within a day, and that she was letting it play out for the sake of mild personal amusement, since he was a non-threat to begin with.
This way we get to know Killer Moth as more than just an angry villain fanboy, but still get to see him as both a villain (he is planning on beating up a crippled person after all) and a father, with him being a genuinely caring dad who really does not know what he's doing, but tries his best to make things work out.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-11 02:42:21 +0000 UTC]
Oh, don't misunderstand me. I never get TIRED of the Joker, and unlike a lot of other people, the fact he is the leader so often doesn't bother me that much. It's more that I don't think it always makes sense. Let me put it into quick perspective; in the 60s Batman Movie, the Riddler, the Penguin, Catwoman, AND Joker were all teamed-up. Of the four, Joker actually took a backseat, but this didn't bother me because, even with the 60s version of the character, it sort of made sense. Joker can barely hold a gang of dimwitted goons together; when it comes to other supervillains, I see him as someone more likely to just "go along for the ride" than take control. Even the DCAU understood this; in "Injustice For All," he sort of just invited himself to the party and didn't try to take control. He just ran with it. Yeah, he and Luthor butted heads, but I don't think Joker wanted to LEAD the gang.
Now, again, I'm not saying he should NEVER take control, I just don't know why he seems to do so so often, given the anarchic nature of the character.
I'm glad you enjoyed the underrated villains list, and actually, that really would be a great version of Killer Moth! Let's hope someone actually tries that. XD
Sincerely yours,
J.
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Danny-Buckle In reply to JJHatter [2018-03-11 03:20:01 +0000 UTC]
Ah, fair enough. I tend to think that the In-Universe reason for Joker's status is that Lex Luthor's friends with him and let's him in on the fun because he knows that Joker would kill him if he didn't. Still, even in stories where they're a part of a supervillain team, Joker is played as the manic wildcard: a loose cannon that's dangerous to anyone in range of him. It seems to me that this is a problem that stems from adaptations over the comic. The DCAU may have got it right, but then there's Lego Batman, which, while absurdly awesome and my favourite Batman movie to date, has Joker serve as the head to the entirety of the Gotham Criminal Community, which...yeah, that would fall apart in minutes, with or without Batman. The Arkham games also seem to have a Joker obsession as well.
Personally, I like the idea of Joker being the head of his own ring of thugs, crooks and henchmen, and serves as the wildcard of the Gotham Organised Crime Community, namely by smashing the Jokermobile directly through the "organised" part and constantly sabotaging the plans of Two-Face, Riddler (who would mostly do this because having a seat at such an Elitist table would satisfy his ego whilst also giving him a territory to work in if needed), Black Mask, Great White Shark, Ventriloquist, Mad Hatter and The "Normal" Mob, lightening up a dark business with his own brand of clownish chaos. They only tolerate it because his Bat-Obsession distracts Batman, and Joker cannot be killed without drawing the attention of his personal friend Lex Luthor, and all of them know that Lex would and could crush their business if he really wanted to.
I'm glad you like the idea. Oracle isn't one of the first characters I'd want to write if I ever got the chance (Cyborg, Doctor Fate, Martian Manhunter, Firestorm, Green Lantern: Task Force (An Earth Green Lantern Team-Up Book), Tempest, Starfire, Raven, Pantha, Titans, Nightwing, Atom, Captain Atom, Captain Marvel and several others are ones I have a lot of ideas for), but I'd definitely fit this in if I had the opportunity.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-11 03:25:11 +0000 UTC]
I've never really considered Lex and the Joker friends. At all. True, in the Gold and Silver Age (and even the early parts of the Bronze age), they did have their alliances, but those tended to fall apart pretty fast. It's the same reason why I think Penguin and Joker make for a good team-up, but wouldn't really make the best of friends; both Oswald and Lex Luthor exist for the sole purpose of building things up. The Joker exists for the sole purpose of tearing things back down again. At most, I could see them more as "frienemies," so to speak, which is a relationship I would be much more ready to believe, especially given their general personalities.
Yet, perhaps ironically, I've always loved the idea of Jonathan Crane and Jervis Tetch as practically BFFs, so...maybe I'm just weird. (shrugs)
Sincerely yours,
J.
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Danny-Buckle In reply to JJHatter [2018-03-11 04:05:35 +0000 UTC]
Hmm, interesting. Maybe it's because I prefer the Joker closer to the TAS version, who has a sick sense of humour but at least has a few limitations, over the master of chaos who just kills without rhyme nor reason that The Dark Knight made famous and the comic version began to emulate a few years earlier, but I kinda see Joker as that friend/family member who you always dread running into, but when you do they end up being a lot of fun to hang out with...in small doses, at least. Penguin and Lex like Joker, and vise-versa, but if they were stuck in a room together they would soon turn against each-other. They also easily look over past actions because they know each-other well enough to recognise that holding a grudge over past events wouldn't get anyone anywhere fast.
Oh no, I agree with that completely. Crane and Tetch would totally get along. To be honest, I feel like Tetch would get along well with most of the Gotham Rogues if he was consistently written accurately; that being a quirky, socially awkward guy who values children over adults and leads the equally quirky Wonderland Gang in a manner akin to a fun boss/teacher, certainly in control and clearly competent but willing to goof around with his Gang if the time calls for it. Harley would like his quirkiness, Hugo would view him as a fascinating case study and value his intellect, Killer Croc would empathise with how the public views him as a monster, and so on.
Really, B:TAS got the Rogues' dynamic perfectly; a quirky, manic family that cannot decide whether or not they want to work together or kill each-other, and I wish that they were shown like this more often. They are like the distorted variant of the Rogues; they still see each-other as family, but while one is a tight unit, the other is an unstable structure that is constantly at risk of collapsing but somehow keeps standing despite everything stacked against it.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-11 04:12:49 +0000 UTC]
On the latter two points - Jervis in response to the rest of the Rogues, and vice-versa, and the family dynamic - I completely agree.
However...I don't think that, even in the DCAU, Joker was all that good a "friend" to Lex. With Penguin, I actually can kind of see it; they seemed to get along fine enough in "Almost Got 'Im" and "Joker's Millions," for example. However, I saw nothing but animosity between Mr. J. and ol' chrome-dome. They would team-up when it benefited each other, but they were constantly arguing, constantly quick to turn on each other, and their philosophies and ways of working were completely different in every conceivable fashion. It was an alliance, but not a friendship.
Sincerely yours,
J.
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Danny-Buckle In reply to JJHatter [2018-03-11 04:46:48 +0000 UTC]
Hmm...I see your point. I do still think that they could work as friends though. It would start off similar to how you described; constant arguing and disagreements, but eventually they both realise what they were doing wrong; they went into a working relationship using the established mentalities from their respective dynamics with their rogues. Joker thought that he could treat Lex like he does to Riddler or Scarecrow; people he can freely sabotage without worrying of the consequences, but Lex doesn't operate like that. Similarly, Lex assumed that he would be able to order Joker around like a flunky akin to how he would to Metallo, Kryptonite Man or Bizarro, and if they didn't like it he could just use his power and influence to ruin them. Thing is, Joker has nothing for Lex to ruin, and cannot be controlled or commanded, and even if he could be controlled he'd then just be a quirky henchman, because a Joker who doesn't run on his own insane path of logic simply isn't the Joker. They are forced to put their egos aside for once (Lex in particular struggling with this), but they pull it off...barely. They aren't sleepover buddies or anything like that (though such a thought is strangely amusing to me), but they get along well enough and respect each-other. They'd rather work with other villains closer to home (General Lane or Brainiac for Lex and Penguin for Joker), but they are willing to team-up and act friendly to each-other if necessary.
See, this is why I both love and hate huge villain team-ups; they are really cool-looking and interesting, but so many personalities clashing at once makes these teams look silly the moment characterisation is considered. The only way I can think of making this work without mind control is to have Lex having an Elitist team (think the Legion of Doom Roundtable) that consists of those who is least likely going to be able to bribe with money or simply command with authority, so Joker, Cheetah, Penguin, Riddler, Circe (if she even bothers to show up), Ocean Master, Black Adam, Captain Cold, Gorilla Grodd, Doctor Sivana, Doctor Psycho, Ra's Al Ghul, Vandal Savage, Wotan, Egg-Fu, Ultra-Humanite, Queen Bee and probably a bunch of others would be a part of this roundtable, while everyone else acts under one of the Elite's command as a part of their own task force. Otherwise it would fall apart in minutes.
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JJHatter In reply to Danny-Buckle [2018-03-11 05:10:53 +0000 UTC]
The thing about villains is that they all have their own egos and their own agendas; heroes may constantly argue, too, but they are ultimately all kept together by a simple fact: they all want the same darn thing. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman...they all have different ways of pursuing it, but all stand for the same basic principles. To preserve life, to thwart evil, to uphold justice, and all that good stuff.
Villains? They can go after all kinds of things. Some of them want money, some want power, some have personal vendettas, some are just complete whack-a-doodles who, in the words of Alfred Pennyworth, "just wanna watch the world burn." Their motives, goals, and so forth actually vary a lot more than heroes do. So, in order for them to work, they either have to want the same thing, and I mean the EXACT same thing, or they have to have some common ground to stand on that holds them down, OR they need to have some controlling force keeping them in line. You also have to make sure to give these villains room to play; a ship may have a captain, but the crew is not superfluous.
Examples: the Rogues from The Flash get along relatively well and work, when written especially well, as something of a family. They all want the same thing, they all follow the same basic code, and while they bicker and have their own separate issues, they understand the value of the team. All of these villains have worked, will work, and do work on their own, and just as well, but they know that there is strength in numbers and they know how to get along with their comrades...most of the time.
In contrast, the Injustice Gang. My personal favorite incarnation of the team was led by Lex Luthor, and featured Joker, Circe, Dr. Light, Mirror Master, Ocean Master, and Jemm as the members. In this case, Luthor maintained control largely through the help of the Philosopher's Stone. The villains were all still their respective selves, but they didn't team-up out of real alliance or friendship, just because it either benefited them or because they had no choice. Indeed, I believe one of them - Mirror Master - left the team when he was bribed by Batman! This is another great team-up that works, but not an especially friendly one.
Now, take the team-ups we see in, say, something like Batman/The Shadow. There's a part in that story where the Joker and an original villain, the Stag, band together a whole slew of Batman's adversaries. In the course of a single issue, they are beaten. This is a conglomoration featuring such villains as Penguin, Scarecrow, Mad Hatter, the Ventriloquist and Scarface...even freaking Magpie makes an appearance! But in this case, they're all just cannon fodder. This is how NOT to do a villainous team-up. Too many characters, not enough time to play, and no real reason for them all to be there other than we can presume Joker said he'd caught Batman and was going to kill him. And, frankly, a lot of the guys in the room - such as Riddler - would be FURIOUS at that, not elated and throwing a party!
Anyway, just a bit of a ramble on the subject. (shrugs)
Sincerely yours,
J.
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death-tribble [2018-03-08 17:54:20 +0000 UTC]
I cannot agree with Crazy Quilt on the grounds that he is a villain who became an enemy of Robin instead of Batman. And that I used him as a template for a villain for the Champions game.
I have more of a problem with Bane not because of the Batman and Robin film but because he was created to break Batman's spine.
I have an old collection of Batman stories and Killer Moth is in that. The look is a lot better than what I saw of him later.
Are you going to do a list of lame Marvel villains ? Many of the victims of the Scourge of the Underworld would potentially end up on that at a guess as particularly Turner D Century rivals Kite Man as being a tad useless.
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JJHatter In reply to death-tribble [2018-03-08 20:27:08 +0000 UTC]
I'm not as familiar with Marvel's low points, to be honest, so probably not. (Though I recall a villain called "Stilt Man" who could probably make such a list, if I did.) And Bane is much more than a character just designed to break Batman's back, in my opinion.
Sincerely yours,
J.
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MrMasterplan In reply to JJHatter [2018-06-30 22:03:01 +0000 UTC]
If you need some help for such a list, I know quite a bit about Marvel villains and I'd be happy to lend my assistance. I've read about quite a few 'lame' villains in my time...
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NoctoNommer [2018-03-08 04:42:11 +0000 UTC]
Good list, and...wow, I forgot some of these guys existed. I can definitely see why.
As stupid as Kite-man is, he deserves SOME credit...he was partially responsible for creating Plastic Man, at least in the Brave and the Bold continuity.
Also, I have a question: what do you think about Orca? I rather like her for her design, and her being an ecoterrorist rather than a petty criminal is pretty interesting...but I think her origin story, where she turns into an orca monster after injecting herself with a serum full of orca spinal cord tissue to regain her ability to walk, is really stupid. At least when the Lizard mutated himself by accident, he was trying to regrow his arm, which makes sense why he would use lizard DNA. Orcas don’t have any regenerative or healing abilities, so why would Grace choose to use tissue from that animal of ALL animals? And then why would she turn into some kind of whale-human hybrid? I’ve had surgery that involved catgut sutures, so should I turn into some kind of sheep-human hybrid if I lived in the comic book world?
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JJHatter In reply to NoctoNommer [2018-03-08 05:19:44 +0000 UTC]
Believe it or not, the Orca's original storyline was one of the first Batman storylines I ever got to read, though the exact circumstances of why and how I won't currently go into. Suffice it to say, I have a soft spot for her, as a result, and I even gave her an honorable mention on my recent list of Underrated Supervillains. HOWEVER, I definitely agree that her origins are on the flimsy side. While her motivations for what she does in terms of story actions make sense and she can be interesting, her motivations for creating the serum and the technicals of how it works don't make a lot of sense. In the case of Man-Bat, the idea was that he was trying to cure deafness, or blindness, but somehow it went wrong and he ended up becoming a human-bat hybrid. In the case of the Lizard, as you say, he was trying to use the regenerative abilities of a lizard's tissues, and basically the same issue happened, except with scales. With Grace, we don't really get a solid explanation of how this works or why she does it, so the only conclusion is that she literally created the serum just to turn into a whale monster, presumably to a.) hide her identity, and b.) intimidate her enemies. I'll grant that it's certainly one way, but, even for comics, if that's the case, that's a pretty extreme measure to jump to. O_O
And as far as your catgut sutures go? I suspect only if those stitches were dipped in some sort of "science goo," or if the surgery was highly experimental. XD
Sincerely yours,
J.
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spencermalley [2018-03-08 02:21:18 +0000 UTC]
Great list.
Ten-Eyed Man's probably the worst bat-villain for me, His bizarre pseudo-science handicap just drains all the potential from his backstory.
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