Sir-Jayke [2011-11-30 04:02:00 +0000 UTC]

Very interesting. I joined dA about two, two and a half months ago. I've been trying to ingratiate myself into the lit community here and I've been enjoying it immensely. This community and my rejuvenated love for my craft has improved my quality of life. I feel what you're saying, any feedback, no matter how small, positive or negative, it just makes my day.

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MyBlankInfinity [2011-11-29 19:37:47 +0000 UTC]

I'm really new to DA and I'm only just beginning to discover the whole Lit community. I'm amazed by all the appreciation, general support and the whole friendly atmosphere you have here... Anyway, just wanted to congratulate on this article. It's exactly what I believe in!

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MariaShade [2011-11-10 23:10:29 +0000 UTC]

[link]
This horrifies me.

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LokiTheSaint [2011-11-10 15:32:51 +0000 UTC]

words are as good as drawing if you ask me

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Lhmac [2011-11-09 02:12:03 +0000 UTC]

*facepalm*
writing =/= literature
Anyone can string a sentence together. Words aren't art, it's the arrangement of them that creates an artwork.

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WordWeight [2011-11-09 01:19:11 +0000 UTC]

Agreed. DA doesn't understand the value of words anymore. And to be honest, I think only a few people do. To merge ART and WASTELESS JOURNALS together...its like your heart becomes ripped into tiny paper fragments of shock and dispair in front of your face. Definitely want to change this.

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wh0rem0ans [2011-11-06 14:25:02 +0000 UTC]

I am not a 'community' sort of person.
Groups are not my happy place. But I
do love the folks who help me refine
my art, one at a time. And dA is the
place where I found them.

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xlntwtch [2011-11-06 09:04:49 +0000 UTC]

I just read many, many comments on this journal-as-an-important-comment for the literature community, after reading your insights into what helps literature groups and individuals (comments!) and what doesn't help (fav and run) and much more.

I'm like several folks here in that to see my journal up as a 'deviation' was a total shock.
So total that for my next entry, I used the "Discourage, Friends only" (or similar - sorrry, it's 1:45 a.m. here) and also wrote only about lit contests, features of all kinds, and added a short story written by an admired author.

I haven't figured out any advantages of sta.sh, nor how to use it.
My problem, I guess. I need an instruction manual I can understand, I suppose.
All I do here is literature, and critiques, and I love doing it. I didn't think there needed to be changes.

I don't understand why any change in any category here is done without at least a few weeks advance notice, with requests for comments about whether users think it's a good idea or not. That seems easy to do.

And look at this! I'm brought here because DLD chose it for one of their daily awards.
I don't care about anyone else's decision on it.. (I've made a comment, though it's incomplete and I wish I had the energy to complete it) ..I'm going to fav this because it's written quite well. I read the DLDs every day, and often choose one or two to fav and also say "Congratulations on the DLD."

SO: Congratulations on the DLD!

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DailyLitDeviations [2011-11-06 06:42:47 +0000 UTC]

Your wonderful literary work has been chosen to be featured by DailyLitDeviations in a news article that can be found here [link]
Be sure to check out the other artists featured and show your support by ing the News Article.

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Quemaqua [2011-11-05 00:20:50 +0000 UTC]

So much discussion. But yes, this is a huge problem and always has been. It's a damn shame and a constant aggravation.

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blueheron93 [2011-11-04 13:30:09 +0000 UTC]

I literally laughed when I read the idea that this new format will support the literary community. As a literary artist, I'm not seeing how that works. How does making journals deviations support us? Equating the two is ridiculous. My journals are not the same as my literary art. My literary art is art. My journals are, "This is what I did today this is what I'm working on kthxbye."

If anything, I think lumping journals with deviations undermine the literary community. It's saying that what we do is something that anyone could do. Anyone can post a journal talking about how their cat got stuck in an empty box. Equating something like that with the literary work that we put our blood, sweat, and tears into is, frankly, insulting.

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LadyofGaerdon [2011-11-04 02:06:43 +0000 UTC]

Okay, I guess I'd better wade into this conversation.

I completely agree about personal journals showing up in the footer, and that the loss of the news article feature is detrimental to the lit community. I also agree it would be beneficial to have a lit community volunteer as a site admin.

But I'm rather baffled by this assumption that by having literature and journals both be submitted from the same platform, dA is equating literature with journal entries. I don't think that is the case at all. It just makes sense that if dA was going to make things like html easier for the lit community, that they would offer this to journals too. I'm even more baffled by the idea that literature deviations will now be "lumped in" with journals, when they both still have their own separate, distinct categories.

I also don't think it's fair to say that sta.sh hasn't done anything for us. All users can now use thumbs. This makes it so that any deviant can feature another deviant's work, which helps absolutely everyone on the site. We no longer have to manually input html in our literature, and I know this is something that benefits me, and is also something the lit community has long been clamoring for. Now we have it.

I understand the annoyance at the idea that giving us pretty skins for our literature is support. We want our words to stand on their own and be enough to draw in an audience. But guess what? They're not, at least not if we want to branch out and attract more readership from outside our own insular community. I'v lost count of how many readers my commissioned book cover has earned me fro my novel on this site. The value of illustration cannot be underestimated, especially on a site that is mostly visual. The truth is, most of us, when we go to the bookstore, ARE drawn in by covers. We don't necessarily buy a book because of them, but they do make us stop and take a peek.

So whether we like it or not, skins are beneficial to the literature community, at least to the goal of bringing more people into it.

It is also a good thing that groups can now produce news articles, even if they are in the form of journals.

I think we, as a community, need to stop being jealous of the visual artists and start working with them to our advantage. One of the few downsides to the mass-production of books, was the loss of illustration. Many longer books were published with drawings, woodcarvings, and so on, that were just too costly to reproduce on a massive scale. The advent of digital art gives us an opportunity to recapture this lost reading experience, and we can start by embracing the visual tools we have available with which to illustrate our words.

I really hope news comes back, or at least that the footer could be made to contain only actual news-worthy items.

I don't think $spyed just threw in a reference to the lit community as a way to excuse people's dissatisfaction with sta.sh. I think he is sincerely trying to help the community, even if perhaps he gets it wrong sometimes.

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StJoan [2011-11-04 01:40:33 +0000 UTC]

I've slept on this for a few days...

from the first day to the last i was a gallery director for lit, we asked for a rich text editor. sta.sh writer is the farthest thing from what we had in mind.

how fucking hard is it to understand that my email, even back in the day when i had a hotmail account, has more functionality than even this new writer does?
why the hell would i want to use a CSS skin on my literature?

a freaking rich text editor. that's all. that's ALL we asked for. Bells and whistles and such? fuck that. we didn't need it. we didn't even push pagination and support for novellas and novels.


sta.sh writer is a slap in the face.


I have tried for years and years to support the changes dA has made, I have had my issues but I've always tried in the end to adapt and see the positive. I have tirelessly supported version changes even when i hated the interface because I saw the reasoning behind it.
I see the reasoning behind this and am appalled.


Last March i had the privilege to sit next to Angelo and talk to him about the lit community, to express to him directly exactly what we wanted and exactly how so many of us felt.
It was a great experience. He's a really nice and charming guy and he has some incredible ideas that we will see implemented over time. There is some really really fabulous stuff coming.
But wow did he miss the mark here.
I now feel like I was talking to a brick wall.

I'm wholly disheartened.


The best people I know, I've met here. Many of them are admins and are amazing people that hold dear places in my heart. I do not blame them or hold any bad feelings towards them.
I am, however, completely surprised that some of them were either ignored or not consulted in this update because it is SO INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS to anyone that has ever dealt with the notoriously thorny lit community that the update and subsequent statements made would upset so many of us and lend so much legitimacy to a claim i fought for 3 years to nullify: that dA doesn't understand or really support lit.

All that work for naught?
I hope not.

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Crimson-Cata1yst [2011-11-03 17:43:33 +0000 UTC]

Huzzah, and the word has been spoken.

Although I'm not much of a literary artist myself, (in terms of what I post, at least), just reading this has changed my perspective entirely.

Forgive me for not writing something more meaningful, but if I tried, it'd just end up sounding extraordinarily cheesy.

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Synnic [2011-11-03 06:04:55 +0000 UTC]

I agree. I've seen some awfully inane stuff show up in the Journals section of the footer. Honestly given what journals, are, mainly personal ramblings of no real broader interest, I'm wondering why that shows up in the footer at all when the space could be better used.

I've felt for quite some time that the Literature community is under-served by dA and sometimes even mocked for things that any other artist's group would be given due consideration for. Remember dAlta? April, effing fools! Yeah, I can't tell you how annoyed I was by that one.

Journals and literature do NOT belong lumped in one bucket, and journals are NOT a substitute for news.

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OtakuMutt [2011-11-03 02:09:27 +0000 UTC]

I myself am working to be a master of all trades, with a foot planted firmly in both visual arts and not-quite-as-firmly in Lit. I've always loved both subjects and I dapple around in the reading of others works, always ready to leave a helpful comment here or there, and frankly, now that it's come full circle and I have a grasp at what Sta.sh really is, I'm not sure if I should be baffled or outraged.
This is ridiculous. Even I'm guilty of making journals to lumber on about how drab my day was or how much it rained, and even though I do post things of importance, those things are only important to my watchers. In face, they rarely range into anything the community would be interested in, and even still they are usually forwarded journals that, though meaningful, are almost completely useless.
Now then, how does it make sense that people could lump that kind of boring, rambling information into literature;
Stories that take your heart in a death grip? Poetry that could bring you to your knees or ponder life like it's something new?
That's worse than a slap to the face.

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LiliWrites [2011-11-03 00:21:38 +0000 UTC]

I've been away from dA for about two weeks and come back to this sta.sh business and I have to say - what a crock of shit. (Sorry to talk about poop more.)

I am very disappointed with the way this system is handled. News should be news. Journals should be journals. And for the love of COMMON FUCKING SENSE literature should be literature. You can streamline the way it is all submitted, but you can't lump it all together and call it an improvement.

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jakndaxlovingirl [2011-11-02 22:31:11 +0000 UTC]

I honestly haven't really paid much attention to the whole St.ash thing, I just noticed that Journals are now considered Deviations and I thought that a bit odd. But I agree with everything you said in here. There is absolutely no comparison between the hard work all of us authors exhibit on here, and reading someone's rambling about the pizza they had for lunch or whatever else they deem "important". To mark Journals as Literature is like a slap in the face to the whole writing community.

We get so little recognition as it is, especially when compared with all the visual artists. I know from my own experience that the few drawings I've put on here have about twice as many views/favorites as my writing does. But being a writer is my passion, as it is for everyone else in the Lit community. It's what we love to do, and now we're getting even less encouragement for that than we did before. You're right in saying that we all help and support each other, and it makes me sad to think that if the Lit community wasn't so tight-knit, we would hardly be given the time of day by anyone else.

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sagethethird [2011-11-02 21:57:04 +0000 UTC]

As a visual artist who loves gleaning imagery from books and literature, I cannot see a reason why we should have a way to "pretty up" our deviations or skin our deviations the way we would skin a journal. I'm going to be blunt about this, isn't that destracting rather than adding to a work? I don't put frames around my paintings for that reason alone. it's really a distraction, and if I where reading a book and trying to imagine the characters and there were graphics floating all around the text I wouldn't be as concentrated on the work. having to sift through an encyclopedia of junk to get to the well written things is counterproductive no matter what you're looking for. and to add on top of that skins to "pretty up" your deviations? that takes away from the point of an artwork, to admire it for what it is. it's why I liked the gray background of DA, simple, unintruding, perfect for a place to show you work.

I was once taught by an English professor that, to completely emerse yourself in your writing, one had to be completely cut off from all distractions. There is an author he mentioned that literally put his desk in a basement room, the laptop he wrote on had no programs on it but word, and to eliminate the distraction of the internet he glued his modem into the jack and cut it off. A little extreme but it poses my point quite well. Simplicity is always better than novelty. The late Steve Jobs knew this when creating his electronics, and there was a writing app on those devices that basically and I quote "makes sure all your thoughts get into the text and not the program" by eliminating the troublesome distractions of the gui you're writing with. here's the link [link] .

why is it that this has a 5 star review? Simplicity over Novelty. DA needs to realize that for anything to be helped, simplicity needs to be put over novelty. whatever is done.

Writing is the greatest example of simplicity over novelty in fact. one imagines whole worlds from just a few sentences. "it was the best of times, and it was the worst of times" the first line of "a tale of two cities" emerses you in the world you are about to read with just 13 words. You don't need much to say a lot, the greatest visual artist even knows that. I'm doing a copy painting for my painting class so we can learn from our predecessors, and this guy litterally made cloth that looked incredibly realistic with single brushstrokes, your mind puts together the pieces. Writing is the ultimate extreme of this. anything that would benefit the literature community would not include graphics and CSS. it would in fact simplify the older system.

but you can be the judge of what I'm saying here you're the one studying literature at the graduate level lol.

But I will say this. Very Well written journal. And yes I shall fave.

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SisterOfScarletDevil [2011-11-02 21:30:12 +0000 UTC]

I have to agree. Most of the time, my journals are something random I put together or some kind of meme that I felt like doing that day. It isn't very exciting, nor very interesting half the time. Literature should be something different than journals. Decorating them doesn't make it any more interesting or have a point. While I like the thought of moving forward, this isn't exactly the best idea ever created. There needs to be a line between innovating and random ideas.

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Kael-Thas-Sunstrider [2011-11-02 16:32:02 +0000 UTC]

The ability to add graphics to our work is an interesting concept, but it does feel as if they are showing us a shiny bauble with one hand while they steal away our carefully collected pebbles which we've polished and gathered for years. It is a rather impressive feat, to cause so much discord within a community because they fail to understand the needs of said community.

I've been a writer on DA for about 5 years now, and when I first started I just posted items because I wrote them and then figured I may as well do something with it. But as I continued I did notice that other writers on here were sometimes far and few between and by no means easy to locate. I agree with you completely about our comments meaning more than favs many times over.

There is more of a literary community than there was a few years back, or rather theres more of one that I can see, because I remember when it was sometimes once a month if I was lucky where I would see a new article or some such on writing. I may have to start taking an interest in this community again as when I left a few years ago I had completely failed to notice much of one.

A subject of some personal annoyance with my work is that few people do give my work comments or critique. And while I do like the occasional fav, I would prefer the comment, but I've posted one or two attempts at art, rather bad ones but still, and it does vex me that these pitiful attempts garner great praise or attention than my entire portfolio of written work. But thats quite probably an example of DA, writers will always come behind the visually artistic community, even if we can paint pictures more vivid and more breathtaking with our words than they can with paintings and drawings.

I may have rambled somewhat and I may have even lost my train of thought to the point where it has become derailed, dismantled and turned into a bed and breakfast for weary travellers who have become bored with my long winded statements.

We do need some form of voice in the collection of Admins, even if it is just one of them listening to the community and taking it on board rather than hearing there is a problem but not hearing our thoughts on a possible solution and bringing one out which they think would benefit. And turning our work into journals and pretty pictures is not exactly the most inspired solution.

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AspiredWriter [2011-11-02 14:05:22 +0000 UTC]

as a writer i don't need comments on how wonderful the background behind my text is. i wholeheartedly agree that a useful comment or critique even if it is a single point, is worth all the views and +favs on the site. i also do visual art (or at least i try, not that good at it) and i am not working with the written word. this does not make my work any less meaningful.

journals and such little fun stuff should be kept separate from the work we do. who cares if i put all kinds of crap in? what matters is what i write.

i have no idea what this st.ash is all about but i need little more than what is already here. i just think that visual and lit should be put on an equal footing.

i applaud all those who do their utmost to help others be it lit or visual or any general issue.

i also agree about the reasons for being here. i came here primarily to improve my writing and i found on the way a wonderful supportive and absolutely amazing community especially within the writers among us. i love this place and have long since made dA my homepage and is easily the site i visit most frequently.

i do however have an issue with the way this article is presented. the way i see it, it is no more than a critique but instead of a deviation, it is of dA in general. as such i feel that one of the most important "don't" rules of critiquing is borderlined crossed here. as a ctirique this article should do its best to enlighten and help improve rather than scold.

i have great appreciation and respect towards dA admins and i have seen no bad intentions on their part. in fact it seems they are doing their best to help. if you dissagree with their methods you should point it out in a positive manner. help them understand the implications rather than accuse them of being insensitive to a great part of their comunity (a part that they made part of dA)

to all writers: continue making your art reguardless (and if you are doing NaNoWriMo the best of luck) enjoy dA both visual and literary, keep up the good work and enjoy life.

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Amontadillo [2011-11-02 12:44:00 +0000 UTC]

Well written

But how is it possible for us to actually bump the DAdmins into taking at least a half-step back to what it was? AS far as I can tell, they're generally not very respecting of the dA community's thoughts as a whole, let alone our little sub-sect.

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divby0 [2011-11-02 12:09:07 +0000 UTC]

This is why I've joined web communities like Lemonfingers and Figment. This place has never been designed in a way that was intended to showcase literature, so I've joined communities that are.

I've taught myself how to create other types of art in the hopes that some people would take a look at my gallery and see all the lit I have posted, but it doesn't work. If I write something that I was appropriate feedback on for a piece of literature, I share it somewhere other than deviantArt.

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SpaceCricket [2011-11-02 05:53:12 +0000 UTC]

More power to you lit artists!

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spyed [2011-11-02 04:49:03 +0000 UTC]

Sorry I didn't catch this post but I'm glad I saw it.

The speed at which feedback comes in, and the speed at which we can respond with technology are worlds apart even with the sophistication that we have around these things.

By Monday we should have at least one big set of improvements, at which time we'll see where things stand.

There is no question that Sta.sh Writer will meaningfully and positively impact the Literature community. I'm not saying it has yet, I'm saying it will. The Sta.sh Suite will materially improve the publishing capabilities of all Lit. What I was suggesting is accurate; we used to have many different writing systems to maintain. Here, we'll ultimately end up with one. Which means we can focus on making that one really good, rather than spraying resources around to add a feature here and a feature there to many systems.

Also I'm sad that we released Sta.sh and Sta.sh Writer at the same time as the Journal integration, because people are melding them together when in fact they are three distinctly different projects we thought we'd release together since they work well together. My mistake on that one, I think I'll stick with releasing one feature at a time from now on

Lastly, I'm not a particularly big fan of the items making it in to the footer so far either, but we do need to give it a moment to settle as people realize how to best take advantage of the new features. Modifications to what items get fed there will be made once things settle. For now, and even though this is a controversial statement; I actually really like the free for all ... it'll be a wild ride for a moment while things settle in.

I really understand how upsetting this is to everyone, but we're here and we're monitoring and listening and we will come up with a solution that ultimately works for most.

Even if we end up with our differences on this, which I don't think will be the case.. I just wanted to put all this aside for a moment to say that I really appreciate the passion and dedication I'm seeing in this journal, and by the fine folks replying and passionately stating their positions here in the replies too. It's a beautiful thing to see the love with which people defend this place and the things they care about here. I really always respect and appreciate that. Thanks.

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EmotionalOne98 [2011-11-02 04:44:13 +0000 UTC]

You purely amaze me. It's always been my dream to become a writer and I'm very mediocre right now.

I totally agree with you, dA hasn't done anything for us. I might of only been here 7 months, but I know bullshit when I see it.

I'm tired so I'm not going to type out a gigantic long message, but I have to thank you for supporting our community and not just accepting it like most of us are...

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Blacksand459 [2011-11-02 03:40:57 +0000 UTC]

After re-reading the article closely and reflecting on both the tone of my comments and *linaket's intentions behind her editorial, I apologize for my brashness.

Again, I agree with you:

Journals are NOT art-
Literature IS an art form-
YES, the Lit community deserves equal recognition for their art on dA-

So...I only take offense when some folks seem to think other art forms are not as demanding or special as writing. This is your journal, *linaket, and I intruded rather rudely. I just take exception to some of your supporters viewpoints.

literature is equally if not more impressive than every other art that exists out there. ~MithrandirMoon
It can be equally impressive, yes.

No visual art, to me at least, can convey the emotions that a stunning piece of literature can. ~trustinparanoia
To each his own, as they say.


I see literature as more of a challenge than visual work, at least for myself. Putting a wolrd into words and conveying the world exactly how it was drawn up seems exponentially more difficult than simply literally drawing the world. It's a different dialect to translate.~AtheistGod

The desire and difficulty of transposing what an artist sees/feels is, I think, universal in the arts...whether music, visual, writing.

As both a visual artist and a literary artist, I find it harder to be a literary artist. Why? We have to come up with our own worlds, our own characters, our own plots, why a visual artist can do whatever the fuck they want.*UltimaMage578

I should not let others rile me. But begging your pardon, a photographer must work within a set realm: light, shadow, clarity, weather, location, etc. The writer and the visual artist must BOTH use their imaginations to wrest a satisfactory result from a given situation, whether a landscape or a prompt.

All the best, *linaket. I hope $spyed has a change of heart.

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Ebahr [2011-11-02 02:26:14 +0000 UTC]

I agree with this 150%, and included a link in my journal about it also. I'm not as well written as this, by any means, so hope people that visit mine also take the time to visit here and read through this completely. I feel this is ultimately a terrible, two-fold mistake on the designer part, not just because because it effects the lit community, but it also disrupts the social structure of the community, and will ultimately effect visual artists too. Art Features will now be harder to come by. Favorite folders will be come filled with Meme's and reports on toenail growth.
I ranted off in my journal. I think it's just a very poorly executed idea.

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kersee9 [2011-11-01 20:28:05 +0000 UTC]

"...we could bring a massive amount of much needed support to the Literature community."

I, personally, do not see the support aspect of clumping us all together with no chance of surpassing the most popular devs' journal entries and severing a very important link that we had to one another.

*DailyLitDeviations had a specific purpose--to provide more exposure to lit through a daily news article. Simple, right? I don't completely know how we will deal with this yet, but I know we will try to get our heads above water again. dA is just making that such a hard mission to accomplish.

I suggest to our community that you seek out all lit artists and community leaders. Watch them, fav their journals. Link arms and hold this community together!

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Forta-Verity-Amity [2011-11-01 17:59:55 +0000 UTC]

Why is a little bit of communication so hard?
I can understand that admins are busy, they have lives and work they have to attend to, but so do we.
Every once in a while, it couldn't hurt to stop working for a few seconds and go out of their way to get some feedback. In fact, I believe it would save a lot of time, energy, and angry bawling about the poorly executed changes they've made.

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Wakagi-chan [2011-11-01 17:26:34 +0000 UTC]

You've just poured out all the thoughts I've ever had about dA's ignorance of the literary community. Well said.

And this st.ash or whatever thing is horrible. I sat there for ten minutes and couldn't figure out how to use it... I don't even think that I will be able to write a journal again, (let alone sending my work with that.)

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butanokaabii [2011-11-01 16:55:54 +0000 UTC]

You win many, many internets.

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kathofalltrades [2011-11-01 16:32:22 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much for being so right
I am a lit-only deviant and, like everyone else in the community, think it's wrong that we should be thrown in with journals. They are two completely different things. Journals are for updates, which is not what we write.
I looked at stash hopelessly for a few minutes, then gave up. I have no idea whatsoever how it's supposed to be used and, come to the point, how it will help to improve my submissions.
I'm not involved heavily in the literature community, yet I still know how strong it is compared to some others. I just don't understand why they feel the need to mess with it?

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2FacedPhantom [2011-11-01 12:06:11 +0000 UTC]

I don't want a fancy tool, nor do I need pretty pictures, previews, or thumbs on my writing. I just want to be able to post my work without needing a physics degree to make it look like an adult wrote it.

I both agree and disagree, in the fact that I think many people are making much adoe about nothing (so to speak.) Changes will be made, people write about poop. 's dinner was delicious, it got 500 favs and a DD. (I <3 pu-sama btw)

So what?

The lit community is what it is. And if it's such a tight knit community where a comment is worth a 1000 favs like you claim it is, then writers will continue to go on as they have been: visiting each other's sites and leaving helpful comments so that everyone can benefit mutually. Everyone wants recognition and support. I don't think you're going about it in the right way. I don't think the admins have the right idea either.

I 'd this anyway because you're partially right.

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